Talk:Safavid dynasty

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Double standards - Persified used for non-Persian ethnic empires so why is Turkified/Turkicized not used for Safavids?[edit]

When a Turkic empire uses Persian elements in their governance some here are quick to apply the term Persianate but here we have an empire using the Turkish language and cultural elements so why are the Safavids not referred to as a Turkicized empire?

86.166.168.3 (talk) 23:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Azerbaiijani or Turkic/Turkmen/Turkish[edit]

Azerbaijani is not an ethnicity the entry is misleading it was not an ethnicity during the era. Oguz Turkmen, Turkmen, Turk, Turkic would be correct titles for the era even today in Iran the term used is Tork (Turk)

86.166.168.3 (talk) 23:17, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Isn't the turkic element underplayed in this entry ?[edit]

i'm sensing that the turkic origins of this dynasty were deliberately whitewashed and the whole thing is chalked up to " turkicized iranians " .

Wasn't the founder of the dynasty the grandson of the sultan of the turkic Aq Qoyunlu dynasty ? why isn't that mentioned with the circassian and georgian origins in the first paragraph ? weren't the first 4 shahs of the dynasty born to turkmen mothers from Iraq ?

so we basically have dynasty of partial ( and overwhelming for the first sultans ) turkic ancestry ,that self identified as Turks, and spoke a turkic language as native tongue. yet that's not enough to describe the dynasty as " turkic " ? .


The founder of the dynasty was Firuz Shah Zarin-Kulah he came originally from Diyarbekir and had Kurdish origin. Ancient sources point to that. Wikisupporting (talk) 10:33, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Why did the later Safavids hate their pure Kurdish origins?[edit]

Why did the 2nd or 3rd Shah of the Safavids hate his Kurdish origins? Did something happen in the family that caused this tension? The Safavids were originally Kurds, ended up being mixed, but at some point one of the Shahs tried to erase his links to his Kurdish ancestors. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 (talk) 21:58, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Pure Kurdish also they are not Pure Kurdish. Sheikh Sadr-din Musa, is half-Iranian/Persian and half-Kurdish.

Azerbaijani Turkic was used as the court languange till the very end of Safavid Dynasty (also after the transfer of the state's capital to Isfahan)[edit]

Azerbaijani Turkish remained the court language till the very end of the dynasty and Shah Soltan Hoseyn was even nicknamed yakhshi dir (‹It is good’), because that is what he said to any official who submitted a proposal to him, and Shah Soltan Hoseyn was even nicknamed yakshi dir (this is good) [1]

Template:Начало цитатыAs noted above, the fact that the court language was Azerbaijani Turkish of course promoted the use of that language in the capital cities (respectively, Tabriz, Qazvin, and Isfahan). In fact, at court more Turkish was spoken than Persian. In 1607, the Carmelites reported that “the Turkish language is usually spoken and understood and the Shah [`Abbas I] and chief men and soldiers generally speak in it. The common people speak Persian, and all documents and communications are in that language.” The court ceremonial was also in Azerbaijani Turkish. The Italian traveler Pietro della Valle wrote: «that the Qizilbash grandees told him that: ‹Persian is a very soft and sweet language, and really used by women for poetry, but Turkish is manly and fit for warriors; therefore, the shah and the emirs of the state speak Turkish.’»

Under Shah `Abbas II, the Carmelites reported that “Turki [not Osmanli Turkish] was the language of the court and widely used in Isfahan and in the north.” Chardin explicitly states about the Qizilbash, “these people, as well as their language, are so widespread in the northern part of the country, and later at court, and therefore, mistakenly all Iranians are called Qizilbash.” In 1660, Raphael du Mans wrote: “the every day language of Iran is Persian for the common people, [Azerbaijani] Turkish for the court.” According to Kaempfer, who was in Iran in the 1670s, “[Azerbaijani] Turkish is the common language at the Iranian court as well as the mother tongue of the Safavids in distinction of the language of the general populace. The use of [Azerbaijani] Turkish spread from the court to the magnates and notables and finally to all those who hope to benefit from the shah, so that nowadays it is almost considered shameful for a respectable man not to know [Azerbaijani] Turkish.”Template:Конец цитаты[2] John Francis Templeson (talk) 14:01, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm afraid that there's not much in this essay-like text filled with WP:OR self-interpretion that would warrant the removal of this sourced content plus its source. Also, you can't just drop a title here (Willem Floor and Hasan Javadi The Role of Azerbaijani Turkish in Safavid Iran // Iranian Studies), claiming that it backs up something, without mentioning a page number. I do agree with you that Azerbaijani was still used as a language at the court up to the end of the Safavid dynasty, but what is meant here in the infobox, is that Persian gradually became the primary court language after the capital was moved to Isfahan. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

You mean what? That Willem Floor and Hasan Javadi are not authorative enough or that there are not such citations in their 14-pages essay? Is it so important to mention the page of small article? I've already cited this essay and you can make sure that they exactly from this book. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00210862.2013.784516?journalCode=cist20 I think we must remove or at least rearrange claim that Azeri language after the transfer of capital to Isfahan was court language no more. John Francis Templeson (talk) 18:37, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

@John Francis Templeson: A simple claim of having taken all this from an actual source cannot support the removal of a quite valid source from the article. People need to be able to check the source, in order to see the portion which is supposed to support the material in question.
As proposed by LouisAragon, if you could verify it by providing the exact page, we might be able to change that portion.
Rye-96 (talk) 20:37, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
@Rye-96: Here you are! Iranian Studies

Volume 46, 2013 - Issue 4, p.p.569-581

Access to the article is paid, so for your convenience I'll provide you with other reliable sources that claim quite the same.
Richard G. Hovannisian, Georges Sabagh. The Persian Presence in the Islamic World. — p. 240.
The Sword of Persia: Nader Shah, from Tribal Warrior to Conquering Tyrant — p. 33 John Francis Templeson (talk) 23:02, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks John Francis Templeson. I suggest we tweak that part that part into;
"Persian (official,[3] coinage,[4][5] civil administration,[6] court (primary after Isfahan became capital),[7] etc...." and "Azerbaijani language (court, (secondary after Isfahan became capital)[7] etc." Or alternatively "Azerbaijani language (court, (primary until Isfahan became capital)[7].... -- doesn't really matter to me which one.
Let me know, and I'll fix the part in question, and will add your sources to it as well. @Rye-96:, would you concur with this wording? Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, LouisAragon, I guess you misunderstand. I have already given you authoritative sources, specialized on Safavid period, that mention primary sources, reporting that Turkish was primary language of the court till the very end of dynasty. Instead, You prefer generalized overview of the History of all Islamic States (New Encyclopedia of Islam), in which author only suppose (he uses probably) that after the transfer of capital to Isfahan Turkish was suppressed by Persian. -- John Francis Templeson (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Its not about my "preference". Its about blanket removing reliable sources, and claiming stuff without, in the first place, citing the sources correctly. Only late in the discussion it was that this matter was solved. Anyway, I will change it back to what you made it to originally (*Azerbaijani language (court, religious dignitaries, military)), add the sources you brought to it, and I will move that reference (Cyril Glassé 2003) somewhere down in the body of the article. Hope its solved then. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 23:43, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
    • ^ Willem Floor and Hasan Javadi The Role of Azerbaijani Turkish in Safavid Iran // Iranian Studies
    • ^ Willem Floor and Hasan Javadi The Role of Azerbaijani Turkish in Safavid Iran // Iranian Studies