Talk:Saint Patrick's Day

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Discrepancy "Patrick's efforts against the druids" What specifically were these efforts. Drive out is not a detailed answer. They were obviously not actual snakes[edit]

"Patrick's efforts against the druids were eventually turned into an allegory in which he drove "snakes" out of Ireland (Ireland never had any snakes)." If an allegory is made because of this "Effort" why are we not plainly defining what that "effort" was without the metaphors. What does this refer? Why is he famous for it? Why are you not publishing the information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.19.83.58 (talk) 18:14, 17 March 2017 (UTC)


Discrepancy between historical summation of st. Patrick's death and the entry in the context of the festival?[edit]

In the section of st. patrick, there is the assertion that he was buried at up Patrick according to tradition, but in the section reguarding the advent of the festival, it was asserted that the St. was supposed to have been buried there. Is there record of his burial proceedings? If not, should the appertaining be deleted from the festival section?

St. Patty's Day[edit]

Hello there I am a first time user of trying to edit a wiki page but I am not able to do it on a certain page. I was born and raised in Ireland and I love my country but it is infuriating when I see my national holiday of St Patrick's Day or what it is referred to here as St Paddy's Day being called St. Pattys Day. The name Paddy comes from the Irish Padraig. I would highly appreciate it if you could remove 'St. Patty's Day from the wiki page please as I find it very offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swampfire89 (talkcontribs) 21:22, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

If you get offended by what you read, stop reading, if not read the previous discussions. Murry1975 (talk) 22:35, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
The "Also called" is not accurate. Including this on the actual wikipedia page perpetuates that some how calling it "Pattys Day" is accurate. The citations/references for "Pattys Day" are errors and you'll notice that these errors, calling it pattys day, only occur in North America. As a compromise I would suggest a section or paragraph that explains the Pattys day mix up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.125.70 (talk) 09:04, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
There are no cite errors in the infobox and no "mix up". "St. Patty's Day" is a recognized colloquialism in the English speaking world. Here are more sources: [1], [2]. --NeilN talk to me 13:38, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
This is why I'm glad we have this article protected. Would-be editors come out of the woodwork as the holiday approaches with the intent to have it their way. I, for one, appreciate discussing issues on the talk page before an edit war rather than after. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:59, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
This is discussed almost every year. Fact is that some, mainly American, call it St Patty's Day. Others, mainly Irish, really don't like this. Wikipedia is not here to determine who is correct, and who is wrong. Or even to decide that there's such a thing as being wrong. It's here to reflect what reliable sources say. And some of those call it St Patty's Day.
If you can find some good sources that discuss the derivations, then that would be great. But until then.... Frankly, if we go down that route, we could just as well decide that Patrick is just as wrong as Patty, because it's really Pádraig. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:57, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
This defence is such nonsense! And as for the suggestion that Patty it is common in the "English-speaking world" what the writer means in the AMERICAN English-speaking COUNTRY! The simple reason for the American use of Patty is the similarity of "T" and "D" as pronounced by Americans in the middle of words - both come out as a "soft D" (think of the American pronunciation of Butter and Bottle). I find it arrogant in the extreme that yet again in Wikipedia editors allow the American world-view to be dominant, even in an article about a non-American saint! --621PWC (talk) 20:32, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
You miss the point. We don't care who or why - the fact remains the colloquialism exists. Your last sentence is laughable exaggeration considering there is one appearance of "Patty" in the entire article. --NeilN talk to me 20:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I am not known as as strong defender of all things American, but one doesn't have to be to acknowledge that a fair few Americans call this now virtually global event St Patty's Day. HiLo48 (talk) 21:07, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
And, outside Ireland, mostly secular event. --NeilN talk to me 21:10, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I am Irish, the Patty's Day doesnt sit right with me, but I see it in articles I read and hear it in programmes and I have no logical reason to dispute its use here, so the opposite happens, I dont like it but its factual and has its place here. Murry1975 (talk) 22:50, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't care much for it either, and can understand why it might annoy the Irish. But my feelings, and those of the Irish, don't trump Wikipedia's responsibility to reflect its use. I'd fully be supportive of any cited content that addressed the issue in a sensible and serious way, but all sources that have been suggested so far have been little better than forum rants. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:15, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Also agreed. We need a rule that "I find it offensive" can be automatically dismissed as a reason to change or remove anything. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:15, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
A true encyclopedia does not willingly perpetuate mistakes - irrespective of how often that mistake is made. Moon landing conspiracy theories, for example, have their own section on Wikipedia rather than being given equal credence in the main article. If "Patty" was given as an example in a section about pronunciation corruptions, then there would be no issue. Here is one of many sources on this subject: Independent (newspaper) UK--621PWC (talk) 21:34, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Well then given that name wasnt Patrick, it more than likely was Maewyn Succat as we are not going to perpetuate mistakes, we should title the article Saint Maewyn Succat's Day and remove all mentions of St. Patrick on wiki and replace them with Maewyn Succat then. Er, no lets go with what sources say and give a world view. Murry1975 (talk) 22:18, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but he was absolutely not called "Maewyn Succat", no matter how many ill-informed websites say so. An 7th century Latin document, which is not considered historically reliable, lists a number of names he's alleged to have borne, and they include "Magonus" and "Succetus", among others. An early Irish life Gaelicises these to "Maun" and "Succat". "Maewyn" appears to be a modern attempt either to prettify "Maun" or to make it look more pseudo-Welsh. The only name he calls himself in his authentic writings is Patricius, and both his father and his grandfather had Roman/Latin names, so there's no reason he wouldn't have borne a Roman/Latin name himself. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:09, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Im deleting the Patty day reference on the grounds that its an Irish national holiday and nobody in Ireland calls it that! If people around the world called the American Independence day June 5th it wouldnt be just another acceptable version of the holiday's name it would just be those people being ignorant and wrong.This is enough of an issue that Dublin airport has made an official announcement telling tourist to stop saying that because its wrong, sounds stupid and is insulting! It's our national holiday we decide what its called! If you say Patty's day you are just wrong and you aren't helping to dispel the idea that American's are ignorant idiots. http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-airport-pattys-day-1357648-Mar2014/?r_dir_d=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.126.25.46 (talk) 23:17, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

As this isn't the Irish Wikipedia or the "ignore non-Irish sources" Wikipedia (Canadian source, Australian source), no, you don't get to decide what colloquialisms are listed. --NeilN talk to me 03:06, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

This in not American Wikipedia, but English Language Wikipedia. Just because a misnomer is common in America does not mean it warrants inclusion in the infobox. The misnomer is common enough in America that it deserves mention in the United States section (hence [3]), but putting it in the infobox is undue weight. - CorbieV 21:33, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Why do you believe that has undue weight and not "Feast of Saint Patrick" or "Lá Fheile Pádraig"? --NeilN talk to me 23:25, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

What about saying "St Patty's Day (esp. in US)"? It seems to be the consensus here that that is the case. Scolaire (talk) 23:47, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

(outside of Ireland) is probably more accurate if we must have something as I found ample Canadian and Australian sources who use it. --NeilN talk to me 00:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
How about (common outside Ireland and the UK) or is that entering the OR regions? Murry1975 (talk) 10:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
It's entering splattering-the-infobox-across-the-whole-page regions. My suggestion was for the addition of 12 characters, which would keep the thing on one line. More charaters than that, and you have not only the objectionable nickname but a very unsightly explanatory note. An alternative would be to have a footnote (of the group kind), saying something like "used only in places such as the United States, Canada and Australia". Also, the citations ought to go. If this is content that needs to be cited, it should be in the body of the article, and referenced there. Scolaire (talk) 10:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted what you did there Scolaire. I understand what you were trying to do, but Wikipedia cannot decide where this is "only" used without an reliable source stating that. Currently we can demonstrate examples of its use in some countries, but that's not the same as stating they are unique to those countries. I'm sure I found examples of the Japanese referring to Patty. Most probably taking their lead from the Americans, but who knows? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:33, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree with this revert as adding the note was inconsistent. Is Lá Fheile Pádraig used anywhere outside of Ireland? --NeilN talk to me 20:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


For the love of Christ can we get rid of the "Patty's" Day piece? We are not celebrating burger patties here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.188.49.125 (talk) 22:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC) Who ever said it is an abbreviation for Saint Patrick's day duh learn your abbreviations.

The word "Patty" can have more that one meaning in more than one context. This article is not about Paddy fields either. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:29, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
There was a perfectly good proposal (above) to add a note indicating that Patty is an American colloquialism. That idea should be actioned, despite the vociferous objections of one editor. He may well be able to find references (as he suggests) relating to other non-Irish and non-British locations, but we all know perfectly well that this is principally an American aberration. As this article in The Independent states in its conclusion, this is largely an American error (or, as the article puts it, "Americans are the worst offenders"). Timothy Titus Talk To TT 16:38, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Your description of the "aberration" and "error" suggests that your approach here is not exactly neutral. If you want to add a qualification to the facts on the article, you need to find a cite to support your claim. And a good cite, please. An opinion fluff piece in a newspaper, discussing what is essentially a publicity stunt by a marketing agency, unsupported by any evidence, doesn't really cut it. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:29, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

I wanted to bring up this discussion once more, before I make any changes, because it is clear this is a violently divisive issue. Since St. Patty's Day is technically an error, but is still used in reliable sources, it can be included in the infobox under "also called", but there should be a note indicating that the usage is erroneous. Are there any objections to the addition of a note such as this? Voyagingtalk 03:37, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Orange discussion - March 2016[edit]

There's definitely room for the topic of wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day. I agree that the current write-up needs some work, and thought it should be discussed here. For a start, here's some sources I found that discuss orange on the holiday: [4] [5] [6]21:42, 18 March 2016‎ Anupam (talk | contribs)‎ .

Thank you User:Rockypedia for starting this discussion and restoring referenced information about the wearing of the color orange on Saint Patrick's Day. In light of the reference you provided, as well as the multiple references that I provided, I definitely think it's important to add this fact in a prominent position, as was done. Every time color is discussed in the article, green always comes first (e.g. "as well as green or orange attire"). I should note that on this very talk page, there were several requests that material regarding this custom be added; I myself was quite shocked that it was missing. I appreciate User:Asarlaí honoring User:Rockypedia's revert and also do not mind his rewording of one sentence in the article regarding the wearing of the color green and orange. I think it's a good compromise to say "some Protestants" as User:Asarlaí did, and as a result, the version of the article as it stands now should stay. However, I do not think that the subheading "Wearing of the green" is necessary since the content covered under that heading also discusses the wearing of shamrocks, the color orange, as well as Saint Patrick's blue. As a result, I'm going to remove that subheading. The main heading "Celebration and traditions" is sufficient for all the content in that section. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 21:42, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I wore orange yesterday, as well as green and white, utter misrepresentation of the facts, one source states "Irish Protestants typically wear orange, the other prominent color on the Irish flag", none of the others mention Protestants wear orange, and none of the ones I saw yesterday were wearing anything primarily orange. Another use the orange or blue "don't pinch them". Utterly blowing sources out of context. Murry1975 (talk) 21:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
As per WP:BRD, I have reberted until consensus is reached to add or alter this. Murry1975 (talk) 21:59, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I've never seen or heard of people wearing all-orange on St Patrick's Day, and I've lived in Ireland all my life. Unfortunately, doing it here might be seen as troublemaking and would likely provoke a negative reaction, due to its association with the Orange Order. I'm sure Murry would agree with me on that.
I see there are a few sources for people wearing all-orange on St Patrick's Day, but they aren't good quality sources and they don't show that it's widespread. All of the sources are American, two of them seem to be blogs or online magazines, and one is a self-published source. The Federalist says that wearing orange on St Patrick's Day "is a relatively new phenomenon" and "is not well known". Vox says "Irish Catholics typically wear green (Irish Protestants typically wear orange, the other prominent color on the Irish flag)". However, this could be a reference to Protestants wearing orange on The Twelfth of July. It also mistakenly claims that blue was "the original color of St Patrick's Day". The Bakersfield Californian asks "did you also know orange is a popular color for the Irish holiday?", which again shows that it isn't well known. The articles in the Huffington Post and The Telegraph mention people wearing the colours of the Irish flag, but not orange alone. The other source is a book that a writer has self-published thru the Geneaology Publishing Service, which means it can't be used.
It's fine to mention that some (Irish-American?) Protestants have begun wearing orange on St Patrick's Day. However, there's no evidence that it's widespread enough to be given such prominence. Anupam's version implies that wearing orange is as common as wearing green, which clearly isn't true. I think this version is a fair compromise: it mentions the wearing of orange, but doesn't overplay it. ~Asarlaí 22:36, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I have to agree, the sources supporting this are weak. It would appear that a small number of people, localised to parts of America, follow this custom. But coverage of it really needs toned down, it doesn't merit anything like equal prominence to green, and would be benefit with a good source that isn't getting extrapolated from.
And yes, it may seem bizarre and kind of thoughtless to most of us, but many localised customs don't make sense to the rest of the planet. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
It seems that consensus favors your version, User:Asarlaí. I would be happy to see you restore that revision you said was a fair compromise. However, would you mind if we moved the sentence about wearing orange right after the sentence that states On St Patrick's Day it is customary to wear shamrocks, as well as green clothing or accessories (known as the "wearing of the green").? I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for your efforts on this article. With regards, AnupamTalk 00:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Agree with Anupam on all points - User:Asarlaí's version is a good one, and the sentence should be moved to where Anupam suggests. Rockypedia (talk) 13:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
"The sentence" is not supported by the sources. "The first group to take part in the tradition appears to have been the Orange Institution, a Protestant fraternal organization (some might say terrorist organization) more commonly known as the Orange Order. Some members of the order wore orange in various parades on Saint Patrick’s Day as a mark of defiance", the OO wear orange whether they are march in March, July or November. This is the only direct mention of people wearing orange. The Bakersfield article, which is a regional and might fail RS, links to the Huff article that is titled "Why we wear green", which states "In Ireland, some still follow the tradition where Catholics wear green and Protestants wear orange" as pointed out above not a direct reference to Paddys Day. The Telegraph "Some people choose to dress up in the colours of the Irish flag - green, white and orange, or as a leprechaun, while others simply enjoy a traditional Irish stew or a pint of the black stuff" and again "According to Irish tradition, green is the colour of the Catholics and orange is the colour of the Protestants".
So my question is, who wears (just) orange on Paddys Day? Murry1975 (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
There does seem to be a lot of extrapolation, reading between the lines and stitching together of sources to construct things, doesn't there? I suspect there may be a notable fact to found here, for a minority of people, who are most likely not in Ireland (despite the references and attributions to them). But we don't have a source that makes that plain, just a lot of hearsay. Do we even have a photo of an example of these people to prove they exist? I'd like to see someone dressed entirely in orange (an equivalent of what you'd see in "wearing of the green") at a St Patrick's Day celebration. Just to show it actually happens. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Thank you User:Rockypedia for also agreeing to that version. With User:Asarlaí and User:Rockpedia (and now myself) supporting that revision, I think we have consensus to update the article to that revision. User:Murry1975, the sentence is supported by the sources. The Huffington Post article is clearly about St Patrick's Day and states "Some Catholics celebrate St. Patrick’s feast day by going to mass, while other observers of the holiday wear orange and green and eat cabbage and corned beef." Similarly, the Vox article is titled "St. Patrick’s Day traditions, explained" and states that "Irish Catholics typically wear green (Irish Protestants typically wear orange, the other prominent color on the Irish flag)." The Bakersfield Californian is also clear about the issue; the article is titled "Why some people wear green, and others wear orange on St. Patrick's Day" and states "Green became the popular color to wear on St. Patrick’s Day due to Ireland’s nickname “The Emerald Isle” and the green stripe on the Irish flag. But Protestants are known for wearing Orange, the other stripe on the flag. The two colors, representing religious sects, are separated with the white on the flag, symbolizing peace between the two colors, reports The Huffington Post." The Federalist article provided by User:Rockypedia is subtitled "On Saint Patrick’s Day, the color you wear actually depends on your religious affiliation" and that "But for a growing number of people, taking part in the holiday means wearing orange. According to this increasingly popular tradition, Protestants wear orange and leave green attire to Catholics. Thus, the color you wear actually depends on your religious affiliation. While this color tradition is not well known, it has deep roots in Irish history." These references, in addition to the multiple requests above, clearly demonstrate the need to add this fact in the article. It seems that User:Asarlaí agrees with that point but initially disagreed with me on how much weight we should put on this fact. Now that him, as well as User:Rockpedia, agree to a version, that I will support too, I think it's safe to restore the article to that revision. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 16:49, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
User:Escape_Orbit, you can see a photograph in the additional source provided by User:Rockypedia, here. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 16:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
That's a photo of someone with the Irish flag draped over his shoulder. Naturally, there's an orange bit. And it's a stock photo; i.e. staged. Also, the writer of this article is Joshua Claybourn. He personally added it to this article 7 years ago, using his own blog as a source. We were again discussing stuff that all linked back to him 6 years ago, and here he is again on another article, another year. Why is it always him? Why the need to tell everyone about what is supposed to be already a tradition?? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Consensus has not been reach Anupam, the sources do not support what you want to add. The federalist is not written by a journalist or researcher "Joshua Claybourn is an attorney and author residing in Indiana", who says "Some of us wear orange for a reason." So basically the only ones who, according to the sources given are the OO and "some" including an attorney in Indiana. Nothing else has been established and the reading of the sources to cut and put a reliable overview is poor. Murry1975 (talk) 16:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand the fight you're putting up against mentioning the color orange. Multiple sources have been cited that connect wearing of orange with St. Patrick's Day. It's true, it's not as common as wearing green. But that doesn't mean that one editor fighting against its inclusion at all should be vetoing the decision to include it in the article. Rockypedia (talk) 17:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
I am not fighting for anything, I am discussing. As I have said we have the OO wearing it and an nondescript "some" in a piece by an attorney. The OO ALWAYS wear orange, the hint is in their name, we need more examples of who is wearing orange (not as the sources state orange/white/green) and where. There is not one editor vetoing, there are two who seem very pushy in blowing a relatively small "custom" into a proportionally large role, who are cutting and putting together sources to do so. Murry1975 (talk) 17:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
And a quick search in books and the web ain't turning up OO marching in SPD parades. It has to be findable if it happened, I will keep looking. Murry1975 (talk) 21:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
I see reliable sources where orange is mentioned as being worn alongside green: [7], [8], [9], [10]. The last one in particular mentions that it's Americans wearing green and orange on the day; that should be noted, of course, as it appears it's more common outside of Ireland than in Ireland. I'd remind everyone involved that this isn't an article written just about St. Patrick's Day in Ireland. Rockypedia (talk) 17:28, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Your sources talk about people wearing colours of the Irish flag. Naturally this includes orange, and white and green. So it's not really "wearing the orange" in the same manner as "the green". I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it would be a whole lot more convincing if there was photos and actual reports of people specifically wearing orange, rather than a handful of fluff pieces by journalists with suspiciously similar wording. They all talk of people wearing orange for St Patrick's day, but where are they all? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:08, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that reliable sources aren't enough to verify that some people wear orange on St. Patrick's Day, and that you need to witness this phenomenon personally? Because that's not how it works here. Rockypedia (talk) 22:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
No, that is not what happens here. What happens here is material that can be supported with relevant sources gets added. I would like to remind everyone, that it is what is in the sources that can be used, not cutting and putting things in the sources together.
The Telegraph Some people choose to dress up in the colours of the Irish flag - green, white and orange, or as a leprechaun, while others simply enjoy a traditional Irish stew or a pint of the black stuff. and According to Irish tradition, green is the colour of the Catholics and orange is the colour of the Protestants. On the Irish flag, these colours are separated by white, which is symbolic of peace between the two. Green ribbons and shamrocks are said to have been worn as early as the 17th century. Nothing about people wearing orange as the edits contest.
The Huffington Post (titled "Why We Wear Green") In Ireland, some still follow the tradition where Catholics wear green and Protestants wear orange. These colors are associated with the religious sects and are the represented on the Irish flag; the white on the flag is symbolic of the peace between the two. and On the holiday, people in Ireland do not wear as much green or celebrate quite as wildly as revelers do elsewhere, although there is a legend that wearing green makes you invisible to leprechauns that will pinch you if they can see you. Not a source for the edit either.
THe Bakersfeild Californian "Why some people wear green, and others wear orange on St. Patrick's Day" So, if you see someone wearing orange, or blue, don’t pinch them. They too are celebrating the Irish holiday At last a source except, two things it is a regional paper, possible failing WP:RS and it is linking to and qouting the above Huff article, but what it is quoting is not in the Huff article.
The Fairfeild Mirror Some think of the smiling faces and blurs of green and orange at parades, while others may think of the clinks of Guinness glasses in a crowded bar. and People from all different kinds of ethnic backgrounds will be seen wearing green and orange on Thursday. They may not know it, but rather than showing off Irish colors, they are exemplifying what it means to be American. Neither support the edit on the face of it and again either way it is a regional paper, and it is an opinion entry and might fail [WP:RS]].
Yes orange gets worn, so do outfits of Guinness, colourful mo-hawks and such, but we need a clear source, not what is being presented at the moment. THe OO have Marched in SPD parades, but as I have stated they wear that colour every time, we need a better clear source that says "wearing orange on SPD..." if that is to entered. The other way a mention of the various costumes and customs with sources would be good. Murry1975 (talk) 20:05, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
What I'm saying is the sources are poor, have every appearance of being sourced from one another, and likely stem from a campaign by one individual, who if fact wrote one of those same opinion pieces. I was merely suggesting that some better sources would help your case and even some pictorial evidence that this happens to any extent. Surely, if this was common enough to merit inclusion, then it would be mentioned in dozens of articles as matter of fact, and photos of orange-clad revellers would be easily found? Instead you are relying on a handful of opinion pieces, where it has to be championed and explained to a public that appears to have never heard of it. If it is so little known, then it really doesn't merit inclusion, and listing it alongside "the green" is completely undue. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:28, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I appreciate the healthy discussion here but am unsure of why you feel that the source from The Huffington Post does not qualify--it seems to be very clear about the practice, stating, "Some Catholics celebrate St. Patrick’s feast day by going to mass, while other observers of the holiday wear orange and green and eat cabbage and corned beef." It discusses Protestants wearing orange in the context of Saint Patrick's Day. Furthermore, the source from Vox clearly states: "Originally, the original color of St. Patrick’s Day was blue. But for several reasons, green prevailed. Ireland is often referred to as the Emerald Isle, and its flag displays a green stripe. Irish Catholics typically wear green (Irish Protestants typically wear orange, the other prominent color on the Irish flag)." Adding in one sentence to the article, as User:Asarlaí suggested, is not undue in light of the multiple sources provided here, as well as the many requests listed on this very talk page noting the omission of Protestants wearing orange for this feast day. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 22:23, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
The Huffington Post is a "news aggregator and blog". It is not a newspaper and not a good source, particularly when it is the sole source. This is why the Huffington Post is generally not considered a reliable source. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 11:25, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
I think many editors would disagree with you, as evidenced in this discussion. It would appear that HuffPost is accepted as a reliable source when they're not reprinting someone else's article. I also find it interesting that you cited a blog (not a RS) and Quora (not a RS) when seeking to discredit HuffPost, rather than an actual Wikipedia discussion, which I found with a quick 5-second search. Rockypedia (talk) 14:25, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
My last link was a WP essay. It's interesting how you can pick up different things from the same discussion. The one you linked to, which is the opinion of a handful of editors, appears to me to be mixed. Some appear to find it acceptable, based on the reputation of the journalist. Mark Miller in particular says; "That has been slowly changing as editors are able to demonstrate that some material from HP is original (not repeated from another source) and was written by a journalist accredited in their field and is a straight forward news story and not a blog or opinion piece." The Huffington Post piece you wish to use as a source is uncredited, no indication who wrote it, and is a fluff "did you know" piece, not a straight forward news story.
I wouldn't be overly concerned with using The Huffington Post as a source, but for the fact it is the only half-credible source offered. All the others either refer back to it, don't specifically refer to wearing orange on St Patrick's Day, or are opinion blogs written by the same one guy. That's simply not good enough for something that is supposed to be a common feature of a very popular celebration. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:08, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

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I'm here because of a request on my talk page. Like I noted there, whether or not The Huffington Post is a WP:Reliable source depends; see WP:Context matters. In some cases, it's fine to use; in other cases, not at all. And then there are the gray areas; because of what Escape Orbit stated in his "18:08, 23 March 2016 (UTC)" post above, I think this a gray area. I'm not sure that The Huffington Post source should be used in this instance, but I don't oppose its use in this instance either. Sorry that I can't be of more help. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:19, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually, going by Escape Orbit's "18:08, 23 March 2016 (UTC)" post, I personally wouldn't use The Huffington Post source in this case, at least not as the sole source. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:27, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

37.228.227.177 (talk) 03:04, 5 April 2016 (UTC)== More Sources that mention wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day == Book 1

Book 2

News article from 1978

News article from 1991

News article from 1984 Rockypedia (talk) 20:07, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing this sources User:Rockypedia. These sources, in addition to the ones I provided, along with multiple requests above clearly establish the need for the content to be restored in the article. An article from Vox plainly states that "Irish Catholics typically wear green (Irish Protestants typically wear orange, the other prominent color on the Irish flag)." I'm not sure why despite there being a plethora of sources to confirm this fact, one or two users are still objecting to the inclusion of one sentence about Protestants wearing orange on Saint Patrick's Day. I hope that your recent research will help. With regards, AnupamTalk 21:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, it seems there's a bunch of evidence that orange is worn by Protestants, and sometimes worn outside of Ireland as part of the Irish flag theme - orange and green being worn together. I personally didn't even know that orange was a Protestant thing, as opposed to green being worn by Catholics, until I got involved in this discussion. The extreme efforts to suppress the mentioning of orange, oddly, seems to reflect the stories of "don't wear orange!" in the many sources. It's almost like it's an anti-Protestant thing. I hope that's not it, but I don't know. Rockypedia (talk) 02:31, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm happy that these sources demonstrate this, although the newspaper ones would get my preference. A sentence could be added to reflect this small scale tradition. It's remains peculiar that, despite claims from observers in America that it was done in Ireland, there is absolutely no sign (or cite) of it now. Perhaps it is a practice that is fading fast with the onslaught of greenery as the celebrations become increasingly less a religious observance.
Incidentally, the "extreme efforts to suppress" you speak of is what is called following Wikipedia policy on reliable sources. Your speculation also borders on a breach of this guideline and would be insulting if it wasn't so ridiculous. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
I always assume good faith until I see evidence that something else is going on. Rockypedia (talk) 10:56, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
I am of the opposite opinion of Escape, the newspapers are regional, and as I pointed out in my objections to such above, might not meet RS, the books would be a better sources, the Jennifer Trainer Thompson one being probably the best, it gives better details than the other one. Murry1975 (talk) 19:46, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Hmm. Not sure why a less-than-authoritative book should get the call over a newspaper. But I'm not that worried about use of the Thompson one. Of the two books, that one is about the overall topic of traditions, so probably better. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I understand that wearing orange may or may not be a tradition protestants in America do to celebrate St Patrick's Day, however, this is not the case in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Britain or anywhere else in the world by Irish people (both protestant or Catholic) or their ancestors. Green is the colour for the Island of Ireland by both protestants and catholics and this is evident when you simply review the colours worn by sports teams that represent both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, such as the Northern Ireland football team and Republic of Ireland football team. There seems to be some misunderstanding represented by some editors on the issues relating to the colours of the Irish flag and tribal groups in Ireland. The situation is a little more complex than the simplistic scenario being put forward, in that it is not just Catholic versus Protestant, but also Loyalist versus Nationalist, and Unionist versus Republican. Not all catholics are nationalist and/or republican, but rather some may be loyalist, while others may be unionist and it is the same for protestants in that not all are loyalist and/or unionists. Green does stand for Irish Gaelic nationalists, white for peace, and orange for Loyalists of William of Orange (whom later became William III of England after he defeated the Gaelic Irish in support of the English catholic King James II at the Battle of the Boyne. Orange is worn by supporters of William of Orange on the 12th July also called The Twelfth to celebrate the Battle of the Boyne and not St Patrick's Day. It must be noted here, that all Irish rebellions against British rule prior to 1916 were conducted by mainly protestants (and not catholics) who were also nationalists and who fought under a Green flag with no Orange representation. The Irish Tricolour flag which was first flown by Thomas Francis Meagher, an Irish Nationalist, in 1848 as a symbol of Irish unity. This flag was adopted for the 1916 Easter Rising by mainly catholics and later it gained official status as the Flag for the Irish Free State and later the Republic of Ireland. When it is mentioned people wear green and orange on St Patrick's Day, then this would clearly indicate that they are showing solidarity to people of the Republic of Ireland and not as it is suggested to people of the protestant religion. St Patrick's Day is by and large observed mainly today as a national holiday rather than as a religious holiday. It must also be noted that members of the loyalist and/or unionist mind do not accept the Irish flag as an flag representing their communities but rather consider it as a terrorist flag due to its relationship with the above mentioned 1916 Easter Rising. This can be reviewed if you read the wiki article of the Flag of Ireland. Finally, Fáilte Ireland and the Northern Ireland Tourism Board run a joint venture each year to celebrate St Patrick's Day where major monuments around the world light up green and green alone. This includes the London Eye and other UK monuments. I do not think the British Government would deliberately ignore orange on their monuments if it is as suggested above that orange is worn by protestants on St Patrick's Day. Future conflicts relating to this should be reverted to Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration which was set up specifically to resolve issue like this. This should also be added to the top of this talk page. I hope this helps resolve this issue

With regard to major monuments - The Empire State Building was lit in "Orange, white and green in honor of St. Patrick's Day" this year. Rockypedia (talk) 23:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Not getting your point on this laast bit Rocky, sorry, but could you explain a bit clearer. Thanks. Murry1975 (talk) 12:09, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
The previous unsigned post mentioned that "Finally, Fáilte Ireland and the Northern Ireland Tourism Board run a joint venture each year to celebrate St Patrick's Day where major monuments around the world light up green and green alone." I was pointing out a source that explained the Empire State Building (certainly a major monument) was lit up with orange, white, and green, rather than green alone. I also noticed that the previous poster explained what colors are worn in Ireland, and was rather dismissive of what happens in the US on St. Patrick's, as if that doesn't matter; of course, that would be ridiculous, as we're striving to maintain a worldwide view of the topic. Rockypedia (talk) 14:02, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Sorry I taught it was all your comment, that's why I was confused by what I read lol. Damn drive by posters. Murry1975 (talk) 14:26, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi Rockypedia, you seem to have falsified your own position. Your argument throughout has been that people wear orange for St Patrick's Day without green as a way of showing solidarity to their protestant heritage. I had informed you that it had nothing to do with religion and of the Turning the World Green campaign (See Here) by Fáilte Ireland and the Northern Ireland Tourism Board, whereby you pointed out the Empire State Building was lit in Orange White and Green. While you are correct the source does state this, however, the Empire State Building for St Patrick's Day was lit Green with the Republic of Ireland's flag (Green White Orange) at the centre (See Here and Here). Secondly, while orange was present, it wasn't as you had been arguing on its own but rather as part of the Republic of Ireland's flag. By having Green White and Orange at the centre and surrounded by Green, it was clearly indicating solidarity to the people of the Republic of Ireland. BTW It should be noted that Orange White and Green is the flag for the Ivory Coast and not Ireland.
In regards to your second point, where you argue: "I also noticed that the previous poster explained what colors are worn in Ireland, and was rather dismissive of what happens in the US on St. Patrick's, as if that doesn't matter; of course, that would be ridiculous, as we're striving to maintain a worldwide view of the topic." Now you are sounding very silly and juvenile. Firstly I had pointed out green was the colour that represents Ireland and people around the world (and not just Ireland) wear green on St Patrick's Day, as you can see from Here and Here and Here. I had not been dismissive of the US. As you can see from many of the pictures i provided and If you see the New York St Patrick's Day parade Journal (here) you will notice some pictures where people wear green and when you get to the section dealing with the "line of the march" for the parade, you will notice the all the headlines and some of the writing is in green. There is no orange, other than when it is with green and white, therefore representing the Republic of Ireland's flag. Notice also the images of the monuments around the world (see here and here ) include some US images. See also ABC's footage Here and the dying of the river in Chicago Here, where green is clearly the colour for St Patrick's Day. While you are correct that we're trying to maintain a worldwide view of the topic (and that includes across Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia), however that is not to the expense of the quality of the article. By adding that orange is worn as a standalone colour on St Patrick's Day would clearly be a violation of WP:UNDUE which clearly states:
"If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article".
As I have pointed out even in the US the view is that green is the colour for St Patrick's Day (hence the popular song by The Script, Paint the Town Green (see Here)) unless it is accompanied with white and orange therefore representing the Republic of Ireland's flag. The view you have that orange may be worn as a standalone colour is a viewpoint that is held by an extremely small and vastly limited minority and therefore according to Wikipedia rules relating to undue weight, does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it except in some ancillary article, in other words in a see also article.
There's so much nonsense in this that I don't even know where to start - but then I noticed it's a drive-by anon IP poster and I don't have the energy to refute the numerous incorrect statements in this diatribe, when I don't even know if the same person will be back to read it. I'm going to add appropriate mentions of orange based on the numerous reliable sources that we've discussed and accepted here, eventually. If anyone has a problem with it, we can start another more rational discussion, but reading some anon IP saying to me "Your argument throughout has been that people wear orange for St Patrick's Day without green as a way of showing solidarity to their protestant heritage" is such complete bullshit that that I've really had it at this point. I have half a mind to strikethrough that myself, just based on the fact that it's completely made up. Rockypedia (talk) 14:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Stop squirming and attacking people. There is no sense becoming aggressive and using vicious ad hominem attacks on me or any other editor that provide reputable evidence that robustly refutes your argument. I and other editors have tried to be polite and accommodating to you but the tactics you have used are not on. Rockypedia your actions have all the hallmarks of WP:POV RAILROAD in order to push your agenda. You have wrote on a number of occasions that people wear orange when they are protestant and green when they are catholic and you have pointed to the Irish flag for this reasoning. For instance in your 13:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC) submission you argued "Today, some Irish Protestants instead wear orange on St Patrick's Day; the Flag of Ireland has an orange stripe representing the Protestant community"should be inserted, despite many editors including me pointing out no Irish protestant wears orange alone on St Patrick's Day. That they wear orange as part of the Orange Order on the 12th July, also called The Twelfth, in celebration of the Battle of the Boyne which was fought between William of Orange (whom later became William III of England after he defeated the Gaelic Irish in support of the English catholic King James II. It was also pointed out that the colours of the Flag of Ireland had nothing to do with religion but rather an attempt of unity with Gaelic nationalists as represented as green and loyalists of William of orange represented with orange and white as peace between the two factions. I added that you could view sports teams in Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland, such as the Northern Ireland national football team and the Republic of Ireland national football team as a simple way to get the point across green is the colour that represents Ireland. Incidentally you might look at the Netherlands national football team as orange is their national colour and this is because of the House of Orange which William of Orange was a member of. So orange has more to do with being Dutch than it does being Irish.
You later write in your 17:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC) submission that "Multiple sources have been cited that connect wearing of orange with St. Patrick's Day" and in your 17:28, 21 March 2016 (UTC) submission "that it's Americans wearing green and orange on the day; that should be noted, of course, as it appears it's more common outside of Ireland than in Ireland". so now you have changed tactics slightly and are now saying it happens more in the US than Ireland. When it is pointed out to you that the sources you provided are mostly blogs regional magazines and so on and therefore not reliable sources, you try to bring in another editor from another site to support you (see Here), However she disagrees with you in her 21:27, 23 March 2016 (UTC) submission. You added similar material in a new section in your 20:07, 23 March 2016 (UTC) submission and wrote in your 02:31, 25 March 2016 (UTC) submission "Yeah, it seems there's a bunch of evidence that orange is worn by Protestants, and sometimes worn outside of Ireland as part of the Irish flag theme - orange and green being worn together. I personally didn't even know that orange was a Protestant thing, as opposed to green being worn by Catholics, until I got involved in this discussion." Not only have you reverted back to your original statement that Protestants wore orange and Catholics wore green on St Patrick's Day but you are now writing it is sometimes worn outside of Ireland where before you were writing "as it appears it's more common outside of Ireland than in Ireland". Also you have returned back to the "as part of the Irish Flag theme" , despite you not offering one reference or source that verifies it occurring in Ireland and despite many editors already pointing out that it has nothing to do with the Irish flag as green is the national colour of Ireland, that is the only colour worn on St Patrick's Day unless it is with white and orange therefore displaying the Republic of Ireland flag.
However it doesn't end here, in this same submission 02:31, 25 March 2016 (UTC), you go on the rampage against editors by writing "The extreme efforts to suppress the mentioning of orange, oddly, seems to reflect the stories of "don't wear orange!" in the many sources. It's almost like it's an anti-Protestant thing. I hope that's not it, but I don't" which another editor had to remind you such an accusation borders on a breach of this guideline. You then make an erroneous accusation against me in your 14:02, 2 April 2016 (UTC) submission by writing "I also noticed that the previous poster explained what colors are worn in Ireland, and was rather dismissive of what happens in the US on St. Patrick's, as if that doesn't matter; of course, that would be ridiculous, as we're striving to maintain a worldwide view of the topic", when in fact I had did no such thing. So just to reiterate and clarify any misinterpretations you may have had from my submission, I supplied ample evidence of St Patrick's Day celebrations including Parades from reputable sources and from national and international news sources including images and video footage including from the US Ireland and many other countries around the world that debunk your argument of people wearing orange as a standalone colour for St Patrick's Day and because they are Protestant. I then informed you that wearing orange for St Patrick's Day was obviously not as widespread as you thought and was clearly an extremely small minority that did it, even in the US as most sources showed and spoke about people wearing green alone or green white and orange representing the Irish flag and therefore I informed you that adding orange as a standalone colour for St Patrick's Day would violate WP:UNDUE which clearly states:
"If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article".
However you clearly go into a rage at this evidence being presented and in your 14:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC) submission you attack and try to discredit me by writing "There's so much nonsense in this that I don't even know where to start - but then I noticed it's a drive-by anon IP poster and I don't have the energy to refute the numerous incorrect statements in this diatribe, when I don't even know if the same person will be back to read it'' and "but reading some anon IP saying to me "Your argument throughout has been that people wear orange for St Patrick's Day without green as a way of showing solidarity to their protestant heritage" is such complete bullshit that that I've really had it at this point. I have half a mind to strikethrough that myself, just based on the fact that it's completely made up" However, I provided all your responses above which clearly state that this was and still is your position. The reason you can't refute the evidence I presented is because the evidence is overwhelming. When you have been asked to supply reliable sources that are not personal experiences or blogs or regional articles and so on you could not, nor could you supply an image of a person wearing orange as a standalone colour for St Patrick's Day, but yet you seem to think you are in the position to tell many editors, including those from Ireland that they don't know what the Irish flag means and what colours are worn on St Patrick's Day. For the record while Wikipedia recommend people to sign up to a user account, it is not a requirement. Wikipedia does not tolerate Second-class treatment for IP address editors as they argue that the contributions can be just as good as those with user accounts. ". When you add "I'm going to add appropriate mentions of orange based on the numerous reliable sources that we've discussed and accepted here, eventually." you are clearly displaying tendencies of WP:POV RAILROAD which I stated above. This argument on the colour of orange has been argued many times before (See Here) but still to this day there has been no reliable sources provided and therefore by adding this then you would committing vandalism, not to mention undue weight. I did find an article that makes the same argument that you have made over and over again but it is an unreliable source (See Here). It's an old article about the controversy of the LGBT community been not allowed to participate in the St Patrick's Day parade in New York whereby it argues support for the orange order amongst other things. However if they had done their research they would have noted that the orange order is not just anti-Irish, but also anti-LGBT (See Here), and anti-Same Sex Marriage (see Here), amongst other things. However Wikipedia is not a forum so I have said enough.
I have no interest in responding to an anonymous unsigned post which may or may not be a registered editor that's already posting here, and is posting attacks and half-truths in a ranting rambling effort to make me look like something I'm not. Good day. Rockypedia (talk) 17:42, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
I don't need to make you look like anything at all, you're doing fine all by yourself. Anyone can just look at your previous submissions to see what you have been doing.

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