Talk:Saint Petersburg Ring Road

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Saint Petersburg Ring RoadSaint Petersburg ring road – A number of sources use lower case; there's no evidence that it should be treated as a proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. I see quite many sources use upper case, and I think that upper case is more suitable for English language naming. Lower case reflects a Russian tradition, which is different (though in Russian they also often use upper case for road naming). GreyHood Talk 21:57, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Over-capitalizing is common in English, but it's against WP style to capitalize things that are not proper names. Most of the web hits for this topic are simply mirrors of our capitalized content. If you search Google scholar, or find sites of companies that work on it [1], they don't capitalized. Dicklyon (talk) 22:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, non-capitalized spelling on Russian cites reflects Russian way of spelling things. But in English it is different. I assume that if we have the Neva River in English and not the "Neva river", we should apply a similar principle to the Saint Petersburg Ring Road. And the latter basically acts as a proper name, anyway. GreyHood Talk 22:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
You obviously don't know English very well if you think it would be so logical. I think it's not so much a language issue, though. It's just a question of whether this is a descriptive term for the road, or a proper name. Evidence for a proper name is usually that it's capitalized in "almost all" sources; that's certainly not the case here. Many sources to treat it as a proper name by capitalizing it, but some high-quality sources don't, and those are more likely to be definitive. Here are some new sites with lower case: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] (not that that last one is high quality!). Dicklyon (talk) 06:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I know Russian better, and good enough to understand that the fact that Russians don't capitalize descriptors doesn't mean they should not be capitalized when transferred to English.
As for the proper names, Saint Petersburg is a proper name, but it is the proper name of the city, not the road. Therefore we should regard the full expression, Saint Petersburg Ring Road, as the name of the road. Which it is, anyway. GreyHood Talk 11:04, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't know any Russian, and nobody has argued that how it is capitalized in Russian is relevant. I think it's clear to all that the name of the city is a proper name; the issue is just whether ring road should be treated as a generic, and this is the one around Saint Petersburg, or whether the whole thing should be treated as a proper name for the road. We used to have a stated criterion that if any significant number of sources don't capitalize it, then it's probably not a proper name. I believe that made sense; I don't know where it went. Dicklyon (talk) 06:41, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Can you cite a specific place from WP:CAPS which is relevant to the case discussed? GreyHood Talk 11:04, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
I just comes down to whether it's interpreted as a "proper noun" or not. One book I checked says that proper nouns are not usually used with articles; so "the" in front argues against this being a proper; lower casing it makes that clear. Dicklyon (talk) 06:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Just as the post by Keraunos below shows, some categories of English proper nouns are typically used with articles. Also, English sources of Russian origin or even wider range of sources tend just to borrow the Russian original spelling and translate it without bothering about capitalization. That doesn't mean we should copy it ignoring the general practice of naming in English. GreyHood Talk 10:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment. Just look at the List of ring roads. I see no any lowercase article names alike "X ring road" there. GreyHood Talk 11:04, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
We can work on that later. Dicklyon (talk) 06:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose As one who is working toward a degree in city planning and as one who has a large collection of maps of the major metropolitan areas of the world, I would like to point out that since in the List of ring roads, all of the names are capitalized, and since that since that is proper English usage and is also used on all maps in English of metropolitan areas, there is no reason whatsoever to move the article or to propose that the other ring roads move to lower case. In San Francisco, we use the name James Lick Freeway, not "James Lick freeway"; in San Jose, California there is the Sinclair Freeway and the Junipero Serra Freeway. The same principle applies to a beltway (the name used in the United States for what is called a ring road in Russia, China, and most other areas of the world), which, like a parkway, a freeway, or an expressway is, in the terminology of city planning, simply another type of limited access road--one that encircles a metropolitan area. In all cases in English, the name "Parkway", "Expressway", "Freeway", or "Beltway" is capitalized along with the specific name of the limited access road in question. How it is capitalized in Russian is irrelevant. Keraunos (talk) 07:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Moscow Times says, "St. Petersburg Ring Road". So does The Voice of Russia. St. Petersburg Times is here, here, and here. Kauffner (talk) 19:33, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.