Talk:Sami people/Archive 3

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Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

berber relation

anyone care to mention that they are genetically related to the berbers of northern africa? 98.244.55.251 (talk) 01:56, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Source for that claim? A close genetic relation seems unlikely. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The blurb must die

The "blurb", that is the piece of introductory text above the Table of Contents was way way way too long. Also, it carried the impression of having been altered by several people with very varying perceptions of what are the "core" aspect of the Sámi people here to be introduced - are we primarily (a) a modern ethnic group or (b) an interesting genetical phenomenon? It had to be trimmed a little. I moved the gene-bit down to history (after all, it does deal with history) and cultural informaiton that I considered to be too detailed down to "demography" (it fitted right in). (In the same edit I also corrected minor mistakes...) Please don't revert it... If you strongly disagree, let's have a debate instead. I just strongly feel that the intro can't look like it did. - Misha BB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.242.172 (talk) 11:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: I'm not just doing this out of the blue... I did suggest it in the post above this (reorganization, anyone - 0). Since I've received 0 votes against my suggestion, and 1 vote for the suggestion - and it's a long time since I posted the suggestions - I just went ahead and performed this least radical suggested change. - MishaBB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.242.172 (talk) 11:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Looks good Misha - BTW, do you know how to sign your name on here? "~ ~ ~ ~" - see ya... Dinkytown 14:48, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

help w Finnic peoples

Y'all might want to take a look at Finnic peoples. The article states that the Saami are not considered ethnically Finnic, and therefore Finnic cannot be a purely linguistic construct, but there's an editor who objects to actually saying that. I have no idea if the Saami are "Finnic" or not, but I would like to know what people here think, and also if there is a Finnic identity (Finns, Volgans, & Permians), and if so, what it is based on: language only, or also other things. kwami (talk) 14:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

It would be preferable if the word Finnic was used only of speakers of the so-called Baltic Finnic languages. However, sometimes a wider groups of Fenno-Ugrian peoples are included under the name. In other words, it depends on the definition if the Sami are Finnic or not. A vague sense of Finnic identity exists among the Baltic Finnic speakers based on the close linguistical relationship. Sometimes even the more distant branches of the Fenno-Ugrian language family might express some kind of feeling of kinship, but it is not very important politically and exists only among the relatively few people with active interest in Fenno-Ugrian history and languages. The loose Fenno-Ugrian identity is based exclusively on language; there is no common Fenno-Ugrian culture, ethnicity or shared historical experience.--Kaikenlaisia (talk) 15:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Is that why I keep seeing the phrase "Fenno-Ugric" referring to speakers of Finnic languages, because there is no feeling of ethnic unity among Finnic-language speakers as a whole? Are they only defined through linguistics? As an ethnicity, then, Balto-Finnic is the extent of it, and Finns do not identify with Permian, Volga Finns, etc.? I'm trying to avoid positing language families as if they were ethnicities--Altaic peoples, Sino-Tibetan peoples, Uralic peoples, etc. (On WP, Indo-European is presented as a reconstruction from historical linguistics, which is another matter.) And do you have any references that the extent of the ethnicity is Balto-Finnic? Whenever I try to pare down one of these silly articles, I'm accused of OR. kwami (talk) 19:12, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

A late answer: Fenno-Ugric ethnicity does not exist. One cannot speak even of Baltic Finnic ethnicity, as the different Baltic Finnic peoples clearly have distinct ethnic identities. However, the Baltic Finnic groups are linguistically closely related and often express the idea of having special relationship with each other. Because of the linguistical relatedness, feelings of Fenno-Ugrian identity exist on various other levels too, sometimes incorporating all speakers of Uralic languages. But as I said, that identity is based exclusively on language, has little political significance, and it cannot be desbribed as ethnic identity. A Finn might consider a Permian as a fascinating distant relative, but not as a member of the same ethnicity.--130.234.68.221 (talk) 13:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I would agree with you 130.234.68.221. "Fenno-Ugric" is strictly based on only the language, and virtually no connection with culture or ethnicity. Although there had been some symmetry between the Sami and Finns in a working relationship, even though politically there had been some conflict today. As you said, a Fenno-Ugric identity is based exclusively on language. Dinkytown (talk) 20:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The term "Finn" for Sami?

I have a book which I purchased in Finland about the Sami which states that the term "Finn" was once used as a derogatory term for Sami (it's a book written by Sami, I believe). "Lapland" is also refered to as "Finnmark". What does the term "Finn" actually mean.(79.190.69.142 (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC))

The Sami were at one time (500+ years) were call 'Finnfolk' by the Norsk/Norwegians. Don't know what 'Finn' means, ask/look in/on the Finland talk page.
As far as I know, "Finn" wasn't originally a derogatory term for Sami, it was the only term for them. In modern usage, however, it is sometimes used in a slightly derogatory sense, although usually only in various compound words, such as "fjellfinn" ("Mountain Finn", usually reserved for reindeer herding Sami) or "finnjævel" ("Finn bastard"). I don't know what the word "Finn" originally means, but the Norwegian wikipedia article on the Sami claims that all writers from antiquity (starting with Tacitus in 98AD) and through the middle ages writing about Scandinavia mention the "Fenni", "Finnoi" or "Finnas". Supposedly their descriptions of these people seem to match the Sami rather than the Finns (who, incidentally, don't refer to themselves as Finns). This would suggest the term is very old and its original meaning probably lost.
Finnmark means "land of the Finns" (although I believe the original Norse meaning is something closer to "Wilderness of the Finns") and is the name of a modern county in Norway, not the entire region sometimes referred to as Lapland. Not sure how old the name is, though... Maitreya (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Sami links with Selkie Stories in Scotland

I recall reading an article which posed the question of whether the Selkie "seal-people" in Scottish/Orkney legend were Sami kayakers rather than the oft-cited Greenland Inuit. Apparently there are reports of large fleets of kayaks and communities of "Finnmen" from around the time of major persecution of Sami in 17th Century Norway. Does anyone have any info about this? (79.190.69.142 (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC))

Sami don't have kayaks, so it has to be a mistaken Greenlander than Sami. If this report is genuine, it may be the lost Inuit that were occasionally picked up by Danish and other Europeans, or were washed up on shore do to being blown from Greenland. Other than that, there is no such thing as historical Sami on kayaks. Dinkytown 20:01, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The kayak link came later on, possibly from whaler sightings of Inuit, or even occasional Inuit reaching the coastlines of European islands. The Finnar had already evolved from Nordic legends of Saami sorcery (Finnar was the word for Saami back then). They were all around the Nordic world back to the times of the sagas (Saami princesses marrying Nordic chieftains, Saami boat-wrights, and even Saami riding over to the Nordic colonies on boat crews). A transitional phase occurred as cultural memory of them passed into story, where sorcerous 'Finfolk' on small/fast boats (the Saami were legendary for their fast 'sewn' ships: "Only few can follow\the Helgeland ship\when bound with sinews\it flies with the wind") which were the basis for the small Finfolk craft so famous for abducting wives in fairy tales. With the introduction of English, the Nordic colonies of the Orkneys began to forget that 'Finn' originally referred to a group of actual people, and its English homonym began to give it more aquatic tones (Finfolk in surviving legends could be identified by a hidden fin somewhere on their person). It wasn't long before the same magical powers and storylines of the Finfolk began to be attached to ever present seal population (the Finfolk had also been shapeshifters, and in the transitional period of the legends had magical clothing like fish skin that they used for traveling underwater). Check out the Orkneyjar website for the best breakdown of how the Saami became Selkies.--184.100.180.221 (talk) 06:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Gallery issues

Renee Zellweger may have some Sámi roots, but does it make her a ethnic Sámi? And Lars Levi Laestadius is generally described as a Swede.--130.234.68.225 (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Renee Zellweger, there is little agreement as to what is a 'Sami', however it has been documented that she is of Sami ancestory of some variying degree. Look here [1] that describes the problem with 'Saminess' with the issue.
Regarding Lars Levi Laestadius, he has been accepted as their own by the Sami, Spoke several of the Sami languages, and was hired by the La Recherche Expedition because of his knowledge of Sami culture, among other things. He was of mixed heritage of Sami and Swedish of varying degree. Most Sami can claim a mixture of different heritages. Dinkytown (talk) 20:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what's the need for changing the gallery again and again and again... I made the first version and frankly didn't see any problem with it (naturally). Then it was replaced, without comment. Then THAT was replaced, and now there's a new one. Are people just altering the images to include people they like, or what is this? In any case, I have some rather concrete issues with the current gallery.
  • It's meaningless to have a picture of a mass of people which is that small. The convention for these "galleries" is to have pictures of single individuals.
  • That is a VERY unfortunate picture of poor Mari Boine. I seem to remember the one I originally found and included did her at least *some* more justice...
- Misha BB
annnd, now the original one seems to be back up there, rendering the post above obsolete. I hope it will stay up for a while. I'm of course partial to my own work, but I would at least like there to be suggestions and some debate before one changes the gallery —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.254.147 (talk) 23:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Misha BB

4 problems

I quickly read through the article. It has four problems that should be fixed:

  1. An expert should take a look at the "Origins of the Norwegian "Sea Sami" section. It seems to be based on a single source, and I do not think the presented hypothesis is generally accepted. Neither can I remember it being discussed in, what is perhaps the best book about Sami history: "Samenes Historie fram til 1750, by Lars Ivar Hansen and Bjornar Olsen".
  2. Many of the red-links are just misspellings of existing articles.
  3. In "Genetics and the history of genetic studies on the Sami" the "Genetic data" section is a mess, while "History of scientific research carried out on the Sami" should be removed since it only contains general claims based on something apparently said in a movie.
  4. "See also" has subcategories with links that are already described in the text (such as "Sami culture").

Labongo (talk) 07:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

How does Lars Ivar Hansen dsescribe in his book "Samenes Historie fram til 1750" as to where the Sea Sami come from? If he doesn't mention it, then that souce is going to be lacking. Przemyslaw Urbanczyk goes into considerable detail on the subject. New sources can be added to that section and the section/foot notes do need to be cleaned up, but Urbanczyk's work is as a solid academic source as you can get. "History of scientific research carried out on the Sami" should remain as it describes a documented event. The movie was not drama, but a documentry describing the event(s). The "Genetic data" section does need to be worked on, but should remain as it is relative, well linked and well sourced. Additional work is always welcomed. Dinkytown (talk) 10:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I do not think that the above mentioned book has a definite answer to the origins of the Sea Sami, nor a discussion of the topic (but I may be wrong since I don't have the book here). I do not doubt the quality of the cited source, but as for the interpretation of the primary work a secondary source would be useful. As for the "History of scientific..." section, it is about as bizarre as writing a section about the history of American Capitalism based singly on a Michael Moore movie, and citing the same movie to make claims such as "there is a significant degree of distrust in the US towards the capitalist system". Labongo (talk) 23:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
To use your example of "Capitalism: A Love Story" there is also a criticism section devoted to the Capitalism wiki page also, just as there is a criticism of the scientific research done on the Sami (not that it was done exclusively on them only). So a section devoted to this criticism would be justified. I know that there are several books in both Norwegian and in Sami that describe this issue. The wordage of "There is thus a significant degree of distrust in the Sami communities towards genetic research" was a compromise some time ago. Back then the genetic issues about the Sami were in the first lead paragraph of the article, describing the Sami almost in a lab-rat context - yet mentioning nothing about the culture until way down the page. The above wordage was the result of the rewrite of the genetic subject of the article. "...significant degree ..." is subjective and can be rewritten, though the context of the issue should not be removed. Dinkytown (talk) 04:18, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
My point was that you do not write such criticism section/article by using as source neither of these two movies. After the rewrite the last sentence is not specific for Sami but for all people. Labongo (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I have not seen Capitalism: A Love Story so can't comment on whether it's a documentary, commentary, or both, but I know Moore's work so I have an idea what it is about. Give Us Our Skeletons is a documentry as it was documenting an event (recovery of Nillias Somby's ancestor's skull from the Norwegian government) in real time, with a description of how the event was created and the context (Norwegianization) that allowed that environment. It also described Scientific Racism that was prevalent during that time and how the Sami were a target to justify their theories. Just because it is in a movie format does not take away the credibility of the source. Norwegian law and government policy was changed because of his actions - which the movie documented. It also shows a perspective that is not common or spoken of in the scientific community about their subjects. This is the reason why it is an important source. But there are other sources that document this event and they can be included as a source. Dinkytown (talk) 07:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The section makes controversial claims such as (my comments in parentheses) "...until recent times (when?) the purpose of this (genetics?) research has mostly been ethnocentric at best, at worst racist and defamatory", and "...many (how many, hundreds? thousands?) Sami were photographed naked and anatomically measured by scientists, with the help of the local police (where is this documented?) - sometimes literally at gun point (where is this documented?)". Using a self published movie to support these claims is not good enough in my opinion. (also the third and final sentence in the section can safely be removed since it does not have any information content). Labongo (talk) 06:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Labongo, we've had this same discussion before. [2] How do you know that the movie is "self published"? You have never seen it - and if you had, the questions that you have above would be answered. I'll tell you again as I did before, go out and get the movie and you judge for yourself. All of that section has been documented through interviews of several people, including eye witnesses, university professors, doctors and Swedish and Norwegian government officals. Show me where on Wikipedia that a documentary film is not an acceptable source - and not just your opinion. Dinkytown (talk) 08:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
(continuation from above) The movie has not gone through a peer-review or editorial process from a respected publisher, and it is from a person many would consider an extremist. Lowering the standard to sources opens the door for crazy people [www.edl.no] to add their interpretation of Sami history using their pseudo-science sources (that have not been peer-reviewed nor published by a well known publisher). Also, as described above every single of the three sentences in the section has serious problems. Labongo (talk) 04:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
There are pleanty of sources on wiki that are not peer-review, and although it is preferable, this not an absolute requirement. The BBC, New York Times is not a peer-review sources, yet no one questions that as a source, even for living people.
One person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. Niillas Somby would be of the same venue as Russel Means, Dennis Banks, Leonard Peltier, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. All of these people wrote their own books that were not peer-reviewed, yet what they wrote would be considered a very reliable source. As far as being and extremist, he’s not an Osama bin Ladin. His actions during the Alta Conflict and petitioning the Norwegian government to return his ancestors skeletons changed Norwegian government policy and Norwegian history. He still has a strong following not just among the Sami, but among many Norwegians as well, though I realize he is very controversial.
As I said before, he has interviewed professors, eyewitnesses, government officials and first-person accounts to the events that he described in the film - which make it a primary source. If the whole genetic studies paragraph is to be included, it would be also important to describe the minority view of how these studies were carried out on the Sami, that has been going on for many decades. Some of the researchers in the film are: Per Holck, University of Oslo; Gunnar Broberg, University of Lund; Rektor Lucy Smith, University of Oslo; and Niel Lynnerup, University of Copenhagen.
It would always be good to include more sources on the subject. I will continue to look for more, but the above source is a good one and reliable, albeit not peer-review. Happy New Year... Dinkytown (talk) 22:31, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe I can add some peer reviewed sources to the discussion when I have a bit of time. SaamiArts (talk) 16:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

lappalainen

I don't understand the last paragraph in the Etymologies section:

Finns living in Finnish Lapland generally call themselves lappilainen, whereas the similar word for the Sami people is lappalainen. It would be incorrect not to call Lapland Finns with that name, and would be similarly incorrect to use the latter name about the Sami people.

So "the word for Sami people is lappalainen", but "it would be incorrect to use the name about the Sami people"? --Thrissel (talk) 19:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Please read again, it says the Sami in Finland are called Lapp-a-lainen vs. the Finns living in Lapland get called Lapp-i-lainen. The difference the first means tatterdemalion, ragamuffin, the second simply 'people living in Lapland'. Obviously the point of the text is that it would be "incorrect" to call the Finns living in Lapland ragamuffins unlike the Sami. Well, right in the beginning of the article it says that the word "Lapp" (in Finnsh Lappalainen) is considered derogatory (in Scandinavia and Finland). So even though the text you cited didn't say it. yes "it would be incorrect to use the name about the Sami people". --Termer (talk) 03:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Genetic Data Clean-up

The Genetic Data section, particularly the first paragraph, needs some serious cleanup. I can't make sense of what most of it is trying to say. NobleHam (talk) 08:23, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Strange sentence

The introduction:

The Sami people, also spelled Sámi, or Saami, (also known as Lapps, although this term is considered derogatory)[7][8] are one of the indigenous people of northern Europe inhabiting Sápmi, which today encompasses parts of northern Sweden, Norway, Finland and the Kola Peninsula of Russia but also in the border area between south and middle Sweden. Their ancestral lands span an area the size of Sweden in the Nordic countries. The Sami people are among the largest indigenous ethnic groups in Europe. Their traditional languages are the Sami languages, which are classified as members of the Finno-Lappic group of the Uralic language family. After Japan, they are considered one of the most introverted people in the world.

What is "introverted" supposed to mean? And is there even a remote possibility to source such a statement? Dupont och Dupond (talk) 21:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

This text need to be changed for several reasons

I removed the following text from the article: "It might explain the origin of the word, by loan to Scandinavian languages, since the traditional beliefs of Sámis included forms of Sami shamanism, during Colonization the Sámis were formerly considered heathens, lost from God, and thus condemned to redemption. It is also among the reasons why many Sámis consider "Lappon" and "Lapponia" pejorative terms." The text in the quoted phrase over is not precise, and the text lacks references. “Pagan” is more correct than the word “Heathen”. The term “Shamanism” is not used in old texts about Sami religion (e.g. John Scheffer or Johannes Schefferus).(Thorguds (talk) 07:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC))

Sami ("Lapps") in Greece and Crete?

Hi Thorguds - I never stated that the 'lapp' term was vandalism in anyway, only that it is grossly misinformed, and completely wrong. First, "lapp" in Germany, Greece, or even Australia has nothing to do with the Sami in Scandinavia. Yes, it is true that place names do reflect previous occupation of the Sami, but that was only within the past one or two thousand years, and should be/is limited only to the Nordic countries. There is no evidence that the Sami were ever in Greece, or Crete and to include that statement in the article assumes that there's truth to it. "Lapp" is a common last name in German Amish, but they have no connection with the Sami. "Goose" is a high derogatory word for a woman in Somali, but that shouldn't be put in there also. "Nova" means "No Go" in Spanish, but no one is going to put that as a serious issue in the Chevy Nova article. The same applies with this article - it dosen't belong there. We are not going to put a citation of any word in the world with the letter "l-a-p-p" in it. The place-name connection has been stated, and should be left alone. You stated the connection between place-names and occupation, that is correct and you did well there, but please limit this to the above. Dinkytown talk 00:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Dinkytown. This discussion is about the etymology of the term "Lapp". Again, the text did not state that the Sami were in Greece or elsewhere, it states that old place names with "Lapp" are distributed widely in Europe. You and I cannot tell if the “Lapp” term in place names around Europe are related. Everything is not known yet about the ancient history or eventual cultural relations within Europe. As I see it is more incorrect to say that these place names are not relevant, because in this way it will be impossible to understand eventual connections. I do not agree that the text I wrote is irrelevant or that it is vandalism.
In fact the text that interprets the etymology of the noun “Lapp” as patches and cloth are the one that have no meaning. I cannot even see that the person have added any sources for such a statement. However, I will not remove it, even if I disagree. Some people seem to believe in such nonsense.
I understand what you mean with the German Amish and the Goose, but even so the place names mentioned by me in the article is interesting. As you can read in the text e.g. “The Isle of Arran” in Scotland is mentioned. “Arran” is a Sami word and several books (including ancient sources) of Pictish history write that "Finn galls" is the same as the Norse Vikings. There are many parallels between the Sami(Lapp= Fenni) and names & customs described in these old books. Even if the information is there, it is written down in old sources and mentioned in several old books, the information has for some reason been and still is ignored by historians. I cannot tell why historians ignore such information, however my intention is to inform about what old texts and other facts tell us about history. Nearly everything is controversial, deletion or ignorance is not the best way to deal with controversies. I suggest that you eventually can add relevant additional information in relation to my text, if you are worried about the text being confusing for readers.(Thorguds (talk) 01:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC))
This is not the page universal word descriptions. Provide evidence that the Sami were ever in Greece or Crete that would deserve the word association of "lapp" with that place name in those countries. "Lap dance", or Daniel Lapp should also not be on this page either. It has nothing to do with it, neither dose the Amish Lapp family, or Lapp-whatever in Greece. These are not loan-words. You should get your own sources to substantiate your claims. There is plenty of evidence for place-name connections in Scandinavia. Use those sources, and leave Greece, Germany and Crete out of this. Dinkytown talk 02:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
That there are names all over Europe containing the letters l, a, p and p in sequence, is not relevant. I'm sorry, this just won't do. If there are any serious references to any researchers who believe there to be any connection here, please put it in. Otherwise, this is not relevant. Thorguds states that "Nearly everything is controversial, deletion or ignorance is not the best way to deal with controversies." This is patently not true. Lots of facts on wikipedia are uncontroversial. And in fact, the connection between the Sami people and Greek placenames containing the letters l, a, p and p in sequence is also uncontroversial: No one believes that such a connection exists. Wikipedia needs some quality control. This sort of rubbish cannot be included. I am sorry if anyone finds this harsh, and I won't question the good intentions of any contributors, but I feel very strongly that this needed to be said.--Barend (talk) 08:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Barend. I couldn't say it better... Dinkytown talk 12:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Use of Lapps in introductory sentence

I know nothing of the dynamic between Sami and Norwegians, about the language, or how the term "Lapp" really affects people, so I defer to natives and others really familiar with the topic. However, it seems really strange to me that a derogatory term would be emphasized and used in the introductory sentence about an ethnic group. The term is mentioned later under Etymologies, where it is repeated that the term is considered derogatory. Isn't that enough? Again, I don't know much about this, but it sounds like if we were to start the Pakistani people article by saying "also known as Pakis, but this term is considered derogatory", which would not fly AT ALL. If Lapps is the term used commonly amongst Norwegians, wrong or not, then by all means mention it and call it out for what it is, but...in the first sentence? it seems to only validate the usage of a term unacceptable to the people themselves. Chaosthird (talk) 17:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Sami people vs. Sami peoples

I cannot see a reason to name the Sami people as Sami peoples in the introductory sentence. Even though there are several Sami languages, the Sami people are still considered to be one people. Either way, the article title should correspond to the terminology in the introductory sentence. I would opt for "Sami people" and not "Sami peoples". Any objections? Garjják (talk) 03:26, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Confirmed, none of us refer to our group as consisting of several peopleS, even though it is obvious we have many different subdivisions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.166.201.42 (talk) 03:28, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Estimated populations

I must say that I question the reliability of the population estimates in this article. Exact numbers are impossible in the case of the Sami because of uncertainties and/or disagreements relating to who should be considered Sami and how they should be counted. One major disagreement is basically over whether to use a "genetic" definition, a cultural definition or one based on self-identification. That aside, I don't think the sources used in the table are the most reliable available. The Sami Statistics website (http://www.sami-statistics.info), which is part of a database project at the Nordic Sami Institute of the Sami University College, states that most estimates of total Sami population (all four countries) are in the range of 50 000 - 80 000. While I accept that this number may be debatable, it certainly seems more reliable than a page from the website of the Norwegian embassy to the UK which is no longer even available. (Maitreya (talk) 12:10, 11 February 2011 (UTC))

Image

can we remove that dubios picture of renee zellwegger whos hardly the most credible sami representative. Put in Sofia Jannok or somoeone else from the arts.Lihaas (talk) 00:22, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

New cat Category:Sami musical instruments

I've started a new cat for the several articles on Sami instruments, and also organised and expanded the instrument section of Sami music. Please check them out and contribute as you see fit. MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:17, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Infobox gallery

What genius had the idea to use Renee Zellweger as a typical Sami? Does she have a Sami identity? No. A "Sami-American" one? No. Does she at least speak Sami? No. Does she have a Sami name? No.

Yeah, so she has Sami ancestry. An excellent case for showing her mugshot in a collection of six faces intended to illustrate the Sami ethnicity.

The mugshot collages are a bad idea to begin with. This case once again illustrates why. --dab (𒁳) 13:52, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

It's like having George Washington or Obama under the English people article as they have English descent. Seems kinda pointless unless you are actually born in that land or at least have a large common similarity to them (as in spent your time mostly with them .etc).82.153.35.70 (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Wording

"The Sámi are Europe's northernmost and the Nordic countries' only officially indigenous people"

This is a very controversial and somewhat provoking statement. I don't think Norwegians, Swedes and Finns see themselves as any less native to their lands than the sami, even if it may be true that the sami are the only recognised indigenous people of the north because of their few numbers and weak position in society compared to the other majority groups of Swedes, Finns and Norwegians. At the very least this should be mentioned, lest foreigners might think we came here with Columbus and systematically wiped the sami out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nordanvind (talkcontribs) 15:07, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Not all peoples that are native to an area fall under the definition of indigenous peoples. Being an indigenous people does not just mean being native to an area - it includes a specific political, legal status and history. The Saami indeed are the only people that fall under this definition in Scandinavia (unless we count Greenland).·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:11, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

re: Zellwegger in the Infobox gallery

Now, Zellwegger isn't even of Sami descent. No matter what the reasoning for having the infobox gallery this is just plain stupid and should be removed.

In case you wondered, Zellwegger is of Kven descent. The kven language is a distant relative of sami, pretty much like greek and french. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.146.218 (talk) 06:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

No, she is of both saami and kven descent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.242.60.98 (talk) 22:53, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but this is can not be correct. What are your sources? Her mother's family (Hildonen/Hiltunen) emigrated from Pelkosenniemen in northern Finland to Finnmark in Norway in the 19th century. The Hildonen family name is one of the largest group of finnish descendents (Kvens) in Northern Norway.

Sources: http://mummila.net/marginaali/2009/03/27/renee-zellwegerin-suomalaiset-sukujuuret/ http://www.valerius.org.uk/Renee%20Zellweger.htm

Changing the orthography needs discussion

What spelling is correct? "Sámi", "Saami" or "Sami"? "Sápmi", "Sapmi" or "Laponia" (Lappland)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher Forster (talkcontribs) 11:02, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I think Sami and Sapmi is the most common in English. Furthermore since there are different Sami languages they presumably also spell their ethnic name differently, making it futile to try and adopt a more indigenous usage. I think Sami with no diacritic is fine.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:19, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
The pronunciation of English words is one thing, but how do you pronounce Sami if I may ask? I guess the real phonetic pronunciation would be Sɑːmiː. --Christopher Forster (talk) 21:35, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I would assume that that is very close to how English speakers would pronounce "sami", I don't think people would generally diphthongize that to "[sɛɪmi]".·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:01, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Sami polytheism sourcing

Doubtless the more information about traditional Sami religious practices etc. the better, but there are some serious sourcing issues with much of these sections. It's also unclear whether ALL Sami were in fact converted to Christianity at one point or another. And you can't just go around calling practices like reading from the Bible oppressive without some sort of citation to that effect. (24.46.31.192 (talk) 00:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC))

Claims of mass sterilizations

I'm deleting this sentence:

"This and similar actions in Scandinavian countries, e.g., the sterilization of Sami women by Swedish authorities, are debated to be an act of ethnic cleansing, and perhaps a genocide."

This is an un-sourced accusation and the sterilizations that took place were far to few in number to be called 'genocidal' even if such a term was appropriate for describing mass sterilization. (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tv%C3%A5ngssterilisering_i_Sverige) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.155.116 (talk) 05:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Numbers don't add up

The numbers in the "regions with significant populations" box don't add up. The Sami population of all Sápmi is given as 133,400, whereas if you add up the Sami populations listed for all the countries that contain some part of Sápmi, the total only comes to 63,831.

That aside, the source provided for Sami population in Norway does not actually say anything about Sami population numbers at all. What it does give is population numbers for "The application area of the Sami Parliament subsidy schemes for business development". This includes the entire population of that area, most of whom would self-identify as Norwegians. On the other hand, it excludes Sami living outside that area. The actual Sami population of Norway could in fact be much larger or much smaller, depending on the definition of "Sami" being used (blood/genetics, language or self-identification). No reliable numbers are available for "Sami by blood" (and high levels of admixture, involving Norwegians and Sami as well as a large number of Finns, would likely complicate any attempt to compile such numbers), but (in 2009) 13 890 people had registered to vote in Sami Parliament elections. The requirements to register to vote are that the person must be at least 18 years old, must have at least one parent, grandparent or great-grandparent who spoke Sami at home and must self-identify as Sami. In short, one could theoretically register to vote despite having very little Sami blood, but the electoral roll does give some indication of how many adults in Norway self-identify as Sami. On the other hand, since registration is voluntary, it's quite possible that many who self-identify as Sami choose not to register simply due to lack of interest in Sami politics. Maitreya (talk) 09:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

This is an outrage!

Why are the Sami people considered indigenous and the Norwegian/Swedish/Finnish not, When studies show Sami have only been in Scandinavia 2500 years?86.183.205.209 (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


It is not known when the Sami people came, it is just estimated. Also, to be indigenous or "urfolk" as it is in norwegian: Indigenous peoples are ethnic minorities who have been marginalized as their historical territories became part of a state. In international or national legislation they are generally defined as having a set of specific rights based on their historical ties to a particular territory, and to their cultural or historical distinctiveness from politically dominant populations. So the norwegians, finish, swedish and russians can only be indigenous if they are taken over by another country. --77.222.189.35 (talk) 18:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Santa Claus

My apologies if I offend anyone for taking down the town of Santa Claus in the section dealing with the USA. There are different versions of why the town was named Santa Claus, so there's no consensus on it's possible link to the Sami people. Also, Santa Claus has many roots and origins, so it's not a 100% Sami name or topic. Feel free to revert if I've got this wrong but it all looks a bit odd to me : ) Angela MacLean (talk) 22:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

This is an outrage!

Why are the Sami people considered indigenous and the Norwegian/Swedish/Finnish not, When studies show Sami have only been in Scandinavia 2500 years?

Because the studies you just made up are not a valid basis for a Wiki article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.19.208 (talk) 09:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

valid basis? Are you joking? The Swedes, Norwegians and Finns are indigenous people of their respective regions just as much as the Sami are the indigenous people of their region (which happens to be the northernmmost part of Scandinavia). I'm so sick of people pathetically attempting to justify the ongoing genocide of the Scandinavian peoples by claiming something as unfounded and stupid as: The Sami were there first anyways. The Sami were first to the northernmost parts of Scandinavia, but not the rest. What's so hard to understand? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Androme385 (talkcontribs) 10:59, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality flagging

I've flagged this page as not being neutral. The "Discrimination against the Sami" section has lines such as "The Swedish and Norwegian governments have been singled out as especial oppressors of the Sami in this regard, and various specific acts of racism and hate against the Sami continue to go unpunished." The source for that line is a book called "Racism Against Indigenous Peoples." Another line I dispute the neutrality of is, "Recent research shows that the Sami are discriminated against in many contexts." This claim has no source, and in intermediate composition classes it would be considered "weasel words" because it uses things like "recent research" instead of an actual example. The following line has no source and is written not only in a biased manner, but also poorly:

"Yet to this day, Sami are being forced to choose the specific identity of the country within whose declared borders the Samis' land lies and adopt that country's values at the expense of Sami culture."

A rather large section that's completely biased and includes no source is the following:

"In Sweden the Sami often feel that the schools do not contribute to strengthening the Sami children’s identity and that children who are subjected to harassment and discrimination are not given the protection they need and are entitled to. Sami children, young people, and parents have also said that harassment connected to their ethnic background is part of their day-to-day life. It is manifested through taunts and other types of abuse. The Sami feel that the local authorities do not take the Sami right to mother tongue teaching seriously, even to the point of openly opposing it. It is evident that a child’s possibilities for receiving mother tongue teaching are in many cases dependent on the parents’ involvement and knowledge of Sami linguistic rights."

Once again, another section that is biased and poorly written:

"As in the other countries claiming sovereignty over Sami lands, Sami activists' efforts in Finland in the 20th century achieved limited government recognition of the Samis' rights as a recognized minority, but the Finnish government has clung unyieldingly to its legally enforced premise that the Sami must "prove" their land ownership, an idea incompatible with and antithetical to the traditional reindeer-herding Sami way of life. This has effectively allowed the Finnish government to take without compensation, motivated by economic gain, land occupied by the Sami for centuries."

Yes, the Sami are being discriminated against in some ways. No, this isn't worse than the genocides in Africa. Don't use Wikipedia to fight your battles. This is an *encyclopedia*, not a soap box.

Could someone else go through the specific subsections for the individual countries? There's a lot there.

136.181.195.4 (talk) 12:35, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

United States???

Are there 30 000 Sami-people in the United States?! Do we have a reliable source on that?

Regards,

ee2718 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ee27182818 (talkcontribs) 10:55, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Ethnic composition

Where can I get number of sami peoples by Municipalities of Finland, Sweden and Norway?--Kaiyr (talk) 17:57, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

You could try two ways. 1. Do municipal statistics ask if you are Sami? 2. Are there Sami organizations that can provide an estimate? Probably the reply to question "1" is "no". I have been a registered resident of various cities in Germany and various districts of Barcelona, Spain, and have never been asked to which ethnic group I belong. I think it would be considered a too racist question in most European states. --Tim2007viatge (talk) 10:39, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

How many are there?

Under "Demographics", an estimate of the number of Sami people is 70,000. Later in the same paragraph it's "between 80,000 and 135,000". Apparently it's a difficult number to obtain accurately, but at least pick one range and stick to it!

I'm not an expert, so it would be nice if a proper demographist or anthropologist or Sami-Counter could choose a figure that's the most authoritative, and stick to that. Are there experts that Wikipedia calls on? Also the 80K-135K variance is almost a factor of 2! Don't Scandinavian countries have a national census, and ask about things like this? Or is there any decent social study? Demographics on Moomins would be more accurate!

188.29.164.158 (talk) 07:55, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Most Scandinavian countries do not keep a race registry like the U.S. Census. So, any ethnographic estimate must be based on secondary factors, such as language (which may be lost), or occupation (since reindeer herding has special rules about Sami). It doesn't help that the people is spread across four sovereign states each of which has its own policy. Not all genetically Sami are active in Sami politics or speak the Sami language, so estimates can vary and can be politically colored. The most "current" study from 1997 is here. To put this in perspective, officially the state of Finland doesn't have statistics how many Finns live in Finland. They just keep a language registry. --vuo (talk) 10:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Lapp/Laplander should be mentioned somewhere in the lead

It's commonly used in English to refer to the group of people; I'd say the exonym is used far more, in fact.

I would add it myself but as an Albannach living north of Eborakon, I don't feel qualified. :P --Inops (talk) 07:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

As there was no response, I added it myself. However looking back in the page's history, I found the text "traditionally known in English as Lapps or Laplanders" has only been recently removed from the page by a IP in Finland (where I assume the word carries a more archaic, possibly racist undertone; cf "negro" in Portuguese), so I've inserted that back into the article. --Inops (talk) 19:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

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Swedish Lutheran Church

"Most Sami today belong to the state-run Lutheran churches of Norway, Sweden and Finland." The Swedish church was disestablished in the year 2000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.85.76 (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

sami from pakistan

that is name of people at Pakistan meaning sami in arabic listener in urdu sami means looking same

Trolling or what? Akmal94 (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

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Discrimination against the Sami

I This whole section reads like grade school sophistry and needs to be cleaned up, badly.

It is sourced and reads fine to me. --71.235.188.9 (talk) 06:35, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Still inaccurate

The demographic numbers are way off for Sweden and Finland. The number for Sweden have been taken from a source dealing with the number of speakers, (See below for a description of the status of the Sami languages which also is completely off) Yet Sami's living in an area from middle Lappland to the south sami area have Swedish as their main language and often only partial to minor knowledge of the Sami language. (Even so those clearly show their ethnicity by speaking a sort of 'pidgin' using Sami words for relatives as well as using Sami language greeting words etc etc.)

The number of Sami's living in Stockholm alone is quite in excess of 10 000 individuals, which would suggest that the rest of the Sami area have been entirely depopulated! That is not the case, several (but not many) administrative areas in northern Sweden have a population where ethnic Sami's actually are in majority!

A more correct number for Sweden is about 40-50 000 individuals. For Finland the situation is about the same with the number of 9,350 being far to low, the situation in Finland being that one individual is not entitled to vote unless they have a reindeer herding background. Which have excluded quite a large group of Sami descendants. So it is not easy to know, but a very conservative correction upward to 20 000 would not be in error.

(The number for Russia is possibly also off, but I leave that one without any correction since we lack a reliable source for their actual number.)

The list with speakers is also quite misleading. Listing the number of Inari Sami speakers as 300 is patently absurd. Only a handful of persons have a full vocabulary in the language, please correct that to 30. The same is sadly true for Pite Sami, there's possibly not even one person alive now that is fully competent in speaking the language, and just a handful of partial speakers left.

And I have no idea whatsoever why Zellweger is shown as a notable Sami person.

If you are going to bother challenging the facts as presented, at least cite a source of your own. It's all well and good to make claims, but without sources, that's all they are. Claims. If the information provided isn't accurately sourced. Delete it yourself.--71.235.188.9 (talk) 06:39, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Link to The Encyclopaedia of Saami Culture

I would like to add a link to The Encyclopaedia of Saami Culture (SENC). Although so far there is but one random link (to the Saami Council) available, the page warns me to be cautious about adding new links. I am proposing SENC because it is a result of scientific research and the single authors are professionals in their respective fields. The quality of most single articles is therefore very good. SENC is multilingual, but most articles have an English version. The site is hosted by the University of Helsinki. --Michael.riessler (talk) 17:32, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

This article is not correct

This article is not correct, it has no sources, it is a result of sloppy editing. Vyvek (talk) 12:03, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

It (or parts of it) has sources but handles them, shall we say, freely. Misreadings and unjustified conclusions. And the History section deals almost exclusively with present-day Norway, so editors from other areas or with a wider perspective would be welcome. 151.177.62.193 (talk) 12:59, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
And bad sources needing replacement, I forgot. 151.177.62.193 (talk) 14:32, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The reason sources are handled "freely" is POV-pushing by a small number of Finnish editors, trying to rewrite history. This article is just peripheral to them but the claim I noticed you remove about "Lapp" allegedly having a Finnish origin fits in with their larger objective, claiming that virtually all of Scandinavia originally was populated by Finnish-speakers, and that Germanic languages derive from Finnish. Claims that are ridiculous to most sane people but are believed to be true by quite a few people in Finland. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:37, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Well, what I removed was an unsupported claim that the form "Lapp" occurred in older Finnish. Apart from the lack of support, the lack of final vowel would also have been very un-Finnish. But probably the whole section is difficult to understand in addition to badly researched (and I haven't got the time to devote...).
As for "fennomaniacs", or any other -maniacs, sad to hear that they are here too. Part of it, I suppose, is the problem that if you're interested in something, you're more likely to be biased too. And in a "narrow" area of interest, there may not be enough sensible people with time to spare to outweigh that.
Some system where professional academics and advanced students, editing under their own names, could "adopt" subjects and articles within their area of expertise, might come in very handy. If they could find the time... 151.177.62.193 (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

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Etymology is a MESS

I don't even know where to begin. That section makes about as much sense as putting an etymology section in an article about African Americans and then describing the history of the word n*i*g*g*e*r.. Not to mention that the sections is utterly LOADED with ridiculously obvious contradictions. If I had time... Unfortunately I do not. 71.235.188.9 (talk) 10:58, 26 May 2017 (UTC)