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French version[edit]

Can someone please translate the French article on this subject into English?

The French version does appear vastly superior. I have read, as it implies in the article by saying the Greek numeric value is 900, that this letter was actually the end of the Greek alphabet, coming after Omega before becoming obsolete. Nagelfar 22:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Because T-shaped alphabetic Sampi was introduced recently to Wikipedia, I think that it is in T-shape not corrupted, but fully fledged letter. For proof look into Sampi article to compare alphabetic T-Sampi and numeric C-Sampi. As you see, T-Sampi is more like russian П and too Greek PI, with addition of |, while C-Sampi is more like russian Э and too Greek LUNATE EPSILON, with addition of -. In this way T-Sampi should be primary, and C-Sampi secondary. (talk) 16:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Unicode: (lowercase-) ϡ (& uppercase-) Ϡ[edit]


The upper case variant, and I am uncertain as to how it appears on the readers monitor being a unicode pasted character from my Windows Vista OS character-map and subject to variation from computer to computer according to fonts used. Yet however I digress and my point is that the internal lines common out of the semi-circle (more of an oblong shape, not an open-intersected oval according to the version I am looking at) has two different lines, the second one with a bend and change in direction downward, whereas the lower case has two diagonal lines, the capital version has a line coming straight down from the top of the bend in the semi-oblong shape (not a crescent either, but the lower case is a widely flanged, more acute than obtuse crescent). My interest/concern for the article is that someone should make an image of this variant upper case version where of the two middle lines, the first comes down at a different angle and the second has a bend (in my explained example they both terminate at a straight down angle. In my opinion the current image doesn't given a good example of the unique morphology the Sampi can be depicted as specific to it and more unlike the other ancient Greek characters. Nagelfar (talk) 23:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Relation of the many Greek 'S"s[edit]

Could the name San be related to Sampi? A shortened "like-" removed from like-pi; I do notice how one could see the M shape as like Pi, in-fact it's all wiki-OR speculation of mine as far as I know, but the relation between Lunate sigma and Stigma/final-sigma seems that Sampi is almost a merger of San & Stigma in form. Nagelfar (talk) 22:05, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


For further use, some informal ref links:

Who spots the obliterated Sampi here?
  • Threatte on earliest appearances of sampi, and possible attestation in Athens: [1] (good source)
  • Description of an attestation of square-shaped numeric sampi on a papyrus fragment, 3rd cent BC [2] (good source)
  • Something about an instance of (rounded, uncial-shaped?) sampi in an early manuscript, context indiscernible in snippet view [3]
  • More about intermediate glyph forms [4]
  • 19th-century speculation about links with Gothic and Cyrillic [5]
  • 19th-century hint about earliest attestation as a numeral in a Louvre papyrus [6]
  • More 19th-century hints about the (then) earliest known papyrus (Louvre) and early proposals linking it with epigraphic Ionian [7]
  • Early 19th-cent speculation about interpretation of a a medieval scholion to Aristophanes (re. "koppatias, samphora"), about possible link of "sampi" with san. (Confusing)
    • Even more confusion: [8]
    • And more: [9]
  • Recent specialized papyrological article: [10]
  • Liddle/Scott entry: [11]
Secret laundry list. Lots of funny shaped sampis and funny names. Clearly visible: the abreviation "LOL".
  • More fun: [12]
  • But in reality it was named quite differently, and it's all Scaliger's fault: [13]
  • Mixed stuff from TLG:
    • "σαμφόρας (Ar. nub. 122)· ἵππος χαρακτῆρα ἔχων ἐγκεκαυμένον σῖγμα, ὅπερ οἱ Δωριεῖς ἔλεγον σάν· <οὕτ>ως κοππατίας καὶ βουκέφαλος [H. Erbse, Untersuchungen zu den attizistischen Lexika [Aelius Dionysius Attic., Ἀττικὰ ὀνόματα. Abhandlungen der deutschen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin, Philosoph.-hist. Kl.. Berlin: Akademie Verlag, 1950: 95-151.]
    • "τὸν κοππατίαν R: κοππατίας ἵππους ἐκάλουν οἷς ἐγκεχάρακτο τὸ κ στοιχεῖον, ὡς σαμφόρας τοὺς ἐγκεχαραγμένους τὸ σ. RVEΘNMMatr τὸ γὰρ σ κατὰ τὸ ϻ χαρασσόμενον ϻὰν ἔλεγον. αἱ δὲ χαράξεις αὗται καὶ μέχρι τοῦ νῦν σῴζονται ἐπὶ τοῖς ἵπποις. VEΘNMatr συνεζευγμένου δὲ τοῦ κ καὶ σ τὸ σχῆμα τοῦ ἐνακόσιοι ἀριθμοῦ δύναται νοεῖσθαι, οὗ προηγεῖται τὸ κόππα· καὶ παρὰ VEΘMatr τοῖς VΘMatr γραμματικοῖς οὕτω διδάσκεται, καὶ καλεῖται κόππα ἐνενήκοντα." [D. Holwerda, Prolegomena de comoedia. Scholia in Acharnenses, Equites, Nubes [Scholia in Aristophanem 1.3.1. Groningen: Bouma, 1977]: 1-250.]
    • "ὦ σαμφόρα: ἰδίως σαμφόραι καλοῦνται ἵπποι ἐγκεχαραγμένοι τὸ ϛ σημεῖον· οἱ δὲ Δωριεῖς τὸ ϛ σὰν λέγουσιν." VEΓΘMLh [Scholia in equites (scholia vetera et recentiora Triclinii). D.M. Jones and N.G. Wilson, Prolegomena de comoedia. Scholia in Acharnenses, Equites, Nubes [Scholia in Aristophanem 1.2. Groningen: Wolters-Noordhoff, 1969]: 1-277.]
    • τὸ δὲ σὰν ἀντὶ τοῦ σίγμα Δωρικῶς εἰρήκασιν. οἱ γὰρ μουσικοί, καθάπερ πολλάκις Ἀριστόξενός φησι, τὸ σίγμα λέγειν παρῃτοῦντο διὰ τὸ σκληρόστομον εἶναι καὶ ἀνεπιτήδειον αὐλῷ· τὸ δὲ ῥῶ διὰ τὸ εὔκολον πολλάκις παραλαμβάνουσι. καὶ τοὺς ἵππους τοὺς τὸ ϻ ἐγκεχαραγμένον ἔχοντας σαμφόρας καλοῦσιν. Ἀριστοφάνης Νεφέλαις (122)·
      οὔτ’ αὐτὸς οὔθ’ ὁ ζύγιος οὔθ’ ὁ σαμφόρας.
    • καὶ Πίνδαρος δέ φησι (fr. 79 B4).
      πρὶν μὲν ἧρπε σχοινοτένειά τ’ ἀοιδὰ
      καὶ τὸ σὰν κίβδηλον ἀπὸ στομάτων. [G. Kaibel, Athenaei Naucratitae deipnosophistarum libri xv, 3 vols. Leipzig: Teubner, 1-2:1887; 3:1890 (repr. Stuttgart, 1-2:1965; 3:1966): 1:1-491; 2:1-498; 3:1-560. – Book XI, § 30]
    • Διὰ τί δὲ κδʹ ἔφη εἶναι τὰ γράμματα; εἰ γὰρ γράμματά εἰσιν οἱ χαρακτῆρες καὶ οἱ ξυσμοί, γράμματα δὲ καὶ τὰ παρὰ Χαλδαίοις καὶ Αἰγυπτίοις, καί τινα ἕτερα, τὸ δίγαμμα καὶ τὸ κόππα καὶ τὸ καλούμενον παρακύϊσμα, καὶ τὰ σημεῖα, καὶ τὰ παρεγγραφόμενα τοῖς στοιχείοις, καὶ ἡ κορωνίς, καὶ εἴ τι τοιοῦτον, ἀτόπως φησὶν ὅτι κδʹ ἐστίν. Φαμὲν οὖν ὅτι, ὡς σφαλεροῦ ὄντος, ὅτι περὶ τῶν ἐν χρήσει τοῖς Ἕλλησι διαλαμβάνει, περὶ τούτων λέγει μόνον· ἐκεῖνα δὲ γράμματα μέν, οὐ μὴν δὲ στοιχεῖα [A. Hilgard, Grammatici Graeci, vol. 1.3. Leipzig: Teubner, 1901 (repr. Hildesheim: Olms, 1965): 442-565]

Fut.Perf. 13:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC)


Where the article mentions that sampi has also been called disigma there's a sentence saying "This usage is currently not found in the literature.", while referring to this website. However, it seems that the website has been changed since the critisism was added, and they seem to have literature proof for their claim. This scan is claimed to be from "Hill, Ancient Greek and Roman Coins (1899), p. 215", as well as this scan from "Icard, Dictionary of Greek Coin Inscriptions, p. 441:". If somebody could verify these scans as authentic, the sentence about disigma being an uncertain name could be removed. Unless, of course, the uncertainty is in trusting the 1899 source in the first place, and with "not found in the literature" they mean actual greek literature from way back... -- Nillli (talk) 10:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for these comments. As far as I can see, no, the page was not changed recently; it's still in the same state I saw it in a few months ago. The trouble is, none of the scanned sources quoted there is actually using the name "disigma" anywhere, is it? I, for one, cannot find it in the links you give above, nor indeed anywhere else. Fut.Perf. 11:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Name "Sampi" etymology: Isle of Samos perhaps?[edit]

Maybe 'Sampi' means 'The Pi from Samos', seeing that it is anciently attested to as being from there. Is there any indication that this is anything more than OR on my part? (talk) 11:43, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


'Spurious pregnancy'? (from the 'did you know' at the bottom of the templates at the above-top part of this very discussion page). Is it is glyph of two phallus' in one fertile womb from that account then? (talk) 11:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC).lp

"Spurious pregnancy" is noted in the Liddell-Scott Lexicon as a "dubious restoration." παρακῠέω, to be spuriously pregnant, dub. rest. in IG4(1).122.26 (Epid.).

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (1315). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

"Spurious" has a very negative connotation: as in 1.not being what it purports to be; false or fake. synonyms: bogus, fake, false, counterfeit, forged, fraudulent, sham, artificial, imitation, simulated, feigned, deceptive, misleading, specious

Merriam-Webster defines "spurious" as:

not genuine, sincere, or authentic
based on false ideas or bad reasoning
of illegitimate birth : bastard

A more direct, simpler, less dubious, and less controversial translation of παρακύϊσμα would be :

from "παρα-" "by, near, alongside" and the verb "κυέω" "to be pregnant". GreekAlphabeta (talk) 14:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)GreekAlphabetaGreekAlphabeta (talk) 14:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm asking you again, for the umpteenth time: can you please, please, please stop making up your own theories and hypotheses and explanations here, and simply stick to what reputable academic publications say? If you have a reliable source that casts doubt on the explanations we provide about that word, then by all means cite it. Otherwise, your contributions here are really not helpful. Fut.Perf. 14:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

The letter T[edit]

Is the sampi the origin of the modern letter T? If so, it probably should be mentioned in the article if anyone has a source that verifies that. --Aqwis (talk) 09:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

No it isn't. The source of Latin "T" is Greek "Τ" (i.e. Tau), which always had the same shape, function and alphabetic position. Fut.Perf. 09:59, 3 June 2011 (UTC)