Talk:San Francisco

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Featured article San Francisco is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 17, 2006.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
April 4, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
August 3, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted
September 6, 2006 Peer review Reviewed
September 10, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted
June 30, 2008 Featured article review Kept
Current status: Featured article

Source 18 is irrelevant[edit]

Source 18, which directs to a Euromonitor blog, in no way validates the claim that San Francisco is the 44th top tourist destination in the world, nor the 6th top in America, as stated in the introduction. A new source ought to be found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.118.104 (talkcontribs)

Lead image[edit]

Golden Gate Bridge, SF (cropped).jpg
SF from Golden Gate Bridge.jpg

Hi all, I wanted to question whether the current infobox image was the best representation we could get. The thumbnail looks sorta nice, however overexposed and slanted. Clicking in, you can see it's pretty poor quality, very overexposed, and the colors don't look right. As well, the photo is almost a decade old by now. Can I suggest something like File:SF from Golden Gate Bridge.jpg? It wasn't as bright or pretty a day, but you can see the actual city much, much better, and the bridge is less of a focal point (the article is about the city). You can also see much more of the city, and the Bay Bridge. If someone wants the RAW file of this to play around, I can send it. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 14:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I've added thumbnails, of both photos, to the top of the section, for easy comparison. I don't see that your photo is enough of an improvement to make a switch. At highest resolution, the buildings in both photos are indistinct. Having the iconic GG Bridge in the foreground helps to make the distinction that this is San Francisco, where that might not be as easy to see with just part of one main cable in the foreground (is that photo taken by someone perched on the other cable?). That you can "see much more of the city" amounts to being able to see Telegraph Hill and the northeast shore partly obscured by the bridge cable handrails. The Bay Bridge is indistinct, fading into the background. Dhtwiki (talk) 10:33, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
I was just suggesting something like mine. It's odd for such a large and oft-photographed city with good views to use such a poor photo that washes out the entire city. Let's hope there are other better photos out there; the Marin Headlands are very popular for photos like this. A Wikipedian could try reshooting this too. I disagree with most of your assessment (esp. because people will know it's SF, having gone to this article), but let's see what others say. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 14:41, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

It would be nice to have one with the new tallest, Saleforce Tower, completed. I feel like the current one is a misrepresentation at this point. Subterranean (talk) 22:23, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 21 external links on San Francisco. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:18, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on San Francisco. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:41, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Salesforce Tower[edit]

not good enough

We need a new cityscape/skyline for SF featuring the salesforce tower, and a shot of it singly, for this article. its now the major landmark in the region. we dont have an appropriate image at the commons. please, get out there and shoot it!Mercurywoodrose (talk) 07:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on San Francisco. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:55, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

The Name "Frisco"[edit]

In 1869, Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protectir of Mexico abolished the Democratic and Republican parties. And, in 1872, he issued the following edict:

"Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco", which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars."


Tdibell (talk) 02:41, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Thomas P. DiBell Tdibell (talk) 02:41, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on San Francisco. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:55, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on San Francisco. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:05, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2017[edit]

The maximum high temperature for month of July in chart is wrong. It should be 103, not 98. On July 17, 1988, the maximum temperature according to official records is 103F. see sources http://ggweather.com/sf/temp1.html, https://www.tripsavvy.com/san-francisco-climate-and-weather-1479149, https://san-francisco-ca.knoji.com/10-alltime-hottest-weather-temperature-days-in-san-francisco/ Pintousmcff (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done. Have made change at Template:San Francisco weatherbox. Dhtwiki (talk) 07:53, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
See below. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2017[edit]

In the climate chart, change the maximum high temperature for May from 97 to 101. On May 30, 2001, the maximum high temperature was 101 according to sources http://ggweather.com/sf/temp1.html, and https://san-francisco-ca.knoji.com/10-alltime-hottest-weather-temperature-days-in-san-francisco/ Pintousmcff (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done. Have made change at Template:San Francisco weatherbox. Dhtwiki (talk) 07:53, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Both of the sites presented for the claimed May 2001 and July 1988 record maxima seem to be personal sites (and hence not WP:RS). According to the official NWS source, the downtown site did not record a maximum temperature for either 30 May 2001 or 17 July 1988. CaradhrasAiguo (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Homelessness/panhandling barely talked about[edit]

The article seems to paint a pretty rosy view of San Francisco. As a native of the bay area, I am surprised that homelessness, panhandling, and associated problems are not bigger issues in the article. These are serious social problems that affect everyone who lives in or visits San Francisco, and I think there should be some additions in these areas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:3024:1610:3be0:8586:cd8a:7ff6:9a44 (talk) 23:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Could someone please add a "climate chart" template?[edit]

Hi, I don't have the required knowledge or technical familiarity (or even a Wiki account) to do this myself, but I think it would greatly improve the article to add a climate chart in the style of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Climate_chart.

The detailed "weatherbox" table is useful but difficult to read. So in addition to that I would love it if one of you experienced Wikipedians could present the same data as a "climate chart" as well. The climate chart template would provide a less information-dense and quickly-readable way for readers to get an impression of San Francisco's climate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.132.220.86 (talk) 13:53, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on San Francisco. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Montage[edit]

Current lead image
Montage, for comparison

It's been more than two years since this issue has been brought up and I'm bringing it up again. The composition in the lead image is a fantastic idea, but in reality it doesn't really capture San Francisco in a way that makes it worthy of leading the article.

  • For starters, in an article about San Francisco, the Golden Gate Bridge is in the forefront and the city skyline is barely visible (taking up 15% of the picture if that).
  • Second of all, about 30% of the image is empty space on the bottom, making the smallness of the city (the supposed focal point) even more glaring.
  • Lastly, and this is something that has changed since the discussion two years ago, the city skyline has changed significantly since this picture was taken, so if a skyline is to be in the header image, it needs to be up-to-date.

I have read some comments deriding the montage as being cluttered. On the contrary, the montage is a way to visualize a place that is difficult to capture in a single image. It is also more visually pleasing to look, up close, at important parts of a city rather than looking at it all from a distance (and seeing nothing). Because the current image offers very little, the vast majority of it is empty space.

Pinging editors who have engaged in this topic in the past @Shogunner7:, @Agnosticaphid:, @Kurykh:, @Norcalal:, @Reverend Mick man34:, @Seaphoto:, @Biker Biker:, @Paul.h:, @RK-SFO:, @08OceanBeach SD:, @Binksternet:, @Dhtwiki:. Sorry if I missed anyone.--haha169 (talk) 09:18, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

The point of the lead image is to identify the place, not to "visualize a place that is difficult to capture in a single image." The Golden Gate Bridge instantly identifies San Francisco more than any other landmark in the world. Shoving a bunch of tiny photos in the beginning of the article (like where does that random lion come from?) visually detracts from the article. Space and simplicity in a single image has its own value, and it has its positive contributions in the infobox. There is no need to crowd information in every nook and cranny. No different arguments from before, no addressing of issues raised before, no montage. --Kurykh (talk) 05:31, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Forgive me for saying that none of those responses are satisfactory. A montage is hardly a crowding of information if done properly, particularly if five or less images are chosen. I agree that the simplicity of a single image has its own value, but you've completely ignored all of the problems with this particular lead image:
      • This image identifies the Golden Gate strait, and would be a suitable lead image for that article, but hardly suitable for the city of San Francisco.
      • You can barely even see the city or any of its constituent parts aside from the bridge. Even the bridge itself only occupies a mere 30% of the frame. The bridge as a symbol works well, but not if the city is completely sidelined. The focal point, which should be the city of San Francisco, is a white smudge that is barely discernable.
      • Half of the image is empty space, Pacific Ocean.
      • And lastly, this image is outdated. Even if you can barely see the skyline as it is, that skyline is outdated.
This montage can be re-done. I agree that the Chinatown lion perhaps isn't the best image to choose there; the Golden Gate Bridge, Painted Ladies, Transamerica, cable car, and City Hall are good enough. But a good montage is far more aesthetically pleasing, visually informative, and comprehensive than a single image, particularly this image whose focal point is that of the Golden Gate strait rather than the city of San Francisco.
Other editors have brought up issues with the quality of this lead image before, but it has never been fully discussed as the topic always veers back towards montages. The montage is merely being presented as an alternative to a current lead image that wouldn't be deserving of a lead image spot for the Golden Gate Bridge article, much less for San Francisco. "An image of a white-tailed eagle is useless if the bird appears as a speck in the sky," similarly, this image of San Francisco appears as a small white smudge in the corner and the bridge too far away to be representative of either, or both. --haha169 (talk) 06:25, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
No reasonable reader is going to see the Golden Gate Bridge in an infobox titled "San Francisco" in an article titled "San Francisco" and think that it's about the Golden Gate Strait. Remember that the Golden Gate Bridge is part of the city of San Francisco itself, not some disconnected structure in the middle of nowhere. You are really grasping for straws here, just like the montage advocates of years past. That's why MOS:IRELEV doesn't apply here. We interpret policies and guidelines reasonably, not by stretching them to reach absurd conclusions.
You also contradict yourself: you want to be comprehensive, but have only five images or fewer in your montages (never mind they're all in one quadrant of the city). Comprehensive for tourists? We're not a travel guide.
More importantly, you're comparing an abstract concept of montages to the very real image we have up on top right now, which is an apples-to-oranges comparison. My main contention is that singular images in general are superior to all montages because montages by definition are multiple images in one place, which makes the top of the infobox busy no matter how you slice it or dice it. That busyness is what makes it feel cluttery and therefore bad for this article's purposes. You want a different lead image? Sure, we can discuss that. But a montage would make things worse. --Kurykh (talk) 07:58, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
SF From Marin Highlands3.jpg
Golden Gate Bridge and San Francisco at sunset.jpg
San Francisco skyline from Coit Tower.jpg
San Francisco DSC09797.JPG
I am hesitant to put in the work of creating a better montage to advocate for before guarantees that it would be used, hence using abstract concept of montages as an alternative. Montages are, by definition, more comprehensive than a single image. Further, an image leading with a city's landmarks does not make it a travel guide in and of itself, no matter what you say.
But I digress, my main point with starting this conversation is that the current lead image is simply not good. If a single lead image must be used, I would recommend one of the following three four:
  • File:SF_From_Marin_Highlands3.jpg, which is taken from the same angle and is marginally better: it has better framing, the Golden Gate Bridge is in greater focus, and the identifying features of the San Francisco cityscape is more clear. There is less empty space, but it is unfortunately even more outdated than the current one and the left tower is just too close to the edge of the frame.
  • While I don't hate the symbolism of having the GGB in the image, they either focus too much on the GGB rather than the city in its entirety, or do a bad job of showing both. File:San Francisco skyline from Coit Tower.jpg does a good job of showing the city's skyline as well as the lower-rise neighborhoods around the Financial district, but unfortunately misses out the GGB as an instantly recognizable symbol.
  • The Painted Ladies (File:San Francisco DSC09797.JPG) are another instantly recognizable San Francisco symbol, much like the GGB, but its location relative to the skyline makes it easier to take a photo with better composition and framing.
Despite my concerns with each of the alternatives, I personally believe that each of the four that I presented above is better than the current image, whose shortcomings I have already detailed at length. --haha169 (talk) 08:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
That montage was previously rejected after multiple discussions archived here. My position back then is still the same: that the infobox text should not be pushed farther down by the extended verticality of the montage, and that the images can be presented with better clarity and context if they are separated and distributed throughout the article. Binksternet (talk) 07:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
I understand the viewpoint of those against the montage. However, as I've mentioned above, the current lead image does a poor job representing the topic and identifying San Francisco. If a single image must be used,File:SF_From_Marin_Highlands3.jpg is taken from the same angle and does a better framing job (although more outdated); the Golden Gate Bridge is in greater focus, and the identifying features of the San Francisco cityscape is more clear, whereas the current lead image is both unfocused (lots of empty space and no focal point) and unclear (the city is an undiscernable white blob occupying a small portion on the upper left of the frame). --haha169 (talk) 07:20, 25 January 2018 (UTC)