Talk:Sappho 31

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Sappho 165 refers to Lobel-Page 165[edit]

It's confusing because different collections use different numbering systems, but this site shows Lobel-Page 165: and implies that the opening is all that's left. (talk) 15:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Trouble archiving links on the article[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


I have just removed the translation added as it does not seem to comply with Wikipedia's guideline on non-free content. Specifically, Wikipedia requires non-free content be fair use, which has to meet four criteria:

  1. That there is no free equivalent, and no reasonable possibility of there being a free equivalent.
  2. That the non-free content has been previously published.
  3. That the content is contextually significant.
  4. That the usage is minimal.

The first of these criteria is certainly not met: even if there is no public-domain or freely licenced translation of Sappho 31 (and I am fairly sure there is: John Hall translated Longinus' On the Sublime, including Sappho 31, into English in the 1650s, according to our article Sappho) it would be possible for someone to make one.

Further, the examples given by the guideline specifically say "extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited". Extensive is not defined, but 16 lines of poetry certainly seems like it is in danger of falling foul of that rule to me.

Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:02, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

It does seem odd though that this article is all about a poem and doesn't quote the poem itself or even a line of it either in Greek or in translation. I think it would be desirable and permissible to add both. Kanjuzi (talk) 05:38, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Galavotti suggestion[edit]

Dozens of views have been published about this poem, and it seems odd that just one, Gallavotti's, who suggested in 1942 that 'phainetai moi' ('he seems to me') might be a corruption of 'phainetai whoi' ('he seems to himself'), has been singled out for special emphasis. Moreover the conclusion drawn ('meaning that the man is not challenged by her sight') doesn't obviously follow at all. We are left tantalised by a reference to a line of Apollonius Dyscolus which allegedly supports the new reading. Since this suggestion doesn't seem to have won general recognition, I think the it has been given too much prominence in this article. Kanjuzi (talk) 06:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

@Kanjuzi: The suggestion you are referring to, the one championed by Gallavotti, was added to the article just yesterday with this edit by Livio94. I will not object to users adding more scholarly perspectives on the poem, although I must agree that, if we include one perspective, we need to include all the others of equal prominence to avoid giving undue weight. The user who originally wrote this article was Caeciliusinhorto, who unfortunately no longer seems to be a very active editor. --Katolophyromai (talk) 11:28, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for pinging me, Katolophryomai; glad to see that you're still around! I haven't been very active this year on wikipedia, but the article seems to be substantially as I left it. Regarding the addition of Gallavotti: as far as I can remember from the work I did on this last year, it's not a generally-accepted theory (I don't recall coming across anyone other than Gallavotti advancing it, though that doesn't necessarily mean that no one has; it suggests that no one easily accessible in English has, though!); I would tend to agree that its current inclusion is undue weight. Without burying myself back in the notes, I can't comment really on what should be in the article; if you are interested in the poem, Kanjuzi, I would very much encourage you to contribute! (One brief note regarding the tantalising reference to Apollonius Dyscolus: I assume it's a reference to Sappho fr. 165, quoted by AD, which reads "to himself he seems"; Rayor & Lardinois (2014) comment that it may derive from an alternative version of fr.31, Carson (If Not, Winter) and Campbell (Loeb) both say believed by some (unspecified) to be a "more correct" reading of Sa.31.1.) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:13, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

In fact since Gallavotti made his suggestion (in 1942, according to Bonelli (1977), p. 269), it does not seem to have been taken up by other scholars, although there has been plenty of discussion of other lines of the poem. Bonelli himself says that there are good philological arguments, certainly, but on the whole he doesn't think it's correct. So it doesn't deserve such great prominence and perhaps should be altogether omitted. The discussion in Most (1995)'s article "Reflecting Sappho" is more interesting and to the point, but has not yet been mentioned. Kanjuzi (talk) 14:45, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Two quick notes: Firstly, I read "Reflecting Sappho" last year and made plenty of use of it in writing Sappho; I have no notes on it which refer specifically to Sappho 31, though, and cannot recall why. Secondly, while I am less active on-wiki this year than last, I still try to check my notifications periodically, so if anyone wants assistance with work on Sappho-adjacent articles do please message me. I am happy to review your work, and can also provide quite a lot of Sappho-relevant sources (or check them myself if they're in English). Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:26, 22 August 2018 (UTC)