Talk:Sauk people

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This page is tough! I see why it was tagged for Cleanup. I have added a little bit regarding the Tribe's name, but much more is needed. Here are some suggestion:

  • Pre-contact life-style information
  • Tribal migration from -
    • St. Lawrence seaway to Michigan
    • Michigan to S. Wisconsin/N. Illinois, Iowa/Nebraska and Kansas/Nebraska
    • Consolidation to Iowa, Kansas/Nebraska and Oklahoma
  • Early contact information
  • Treaties signed by the Sac with the US
  • Treaty implications and life-style change
  • US Policies and their effect on the Sac & Fox
  • Establishment of the current 3 Sac & Fox communities
    • Demographics of each of the 3 communities
    • Major sources of income of each of the 3 communities
    • Education and cultural protection/enhancement programs
  • graphics: ancient distribution, current 3 community locations, other enhancing graphics
  • Additional links for more information

Due to the interconnectivity between the Sac and Fox, the Fox page would need updating as well. In conjunction to the updating the Sac and Fox pages, Kickapoo would need some adjustments as well.


I have not changed it, but the whole "Early History" is based off of incomplete information. Two of the more notable errors...

Neither of the important leaders mentioned (Keokuk and Black Hawk) were Chiefs. Black Hawk was a respected war leader, but he was never a Chief; Keokuk was a peaceful leader and a respected orator, but was only given authority because he was favored by the Americans. The Americans effectively appointed Keokuk "Chief". Chiefdom in Sauk tradition had to be passed down by lineage and though both Black Hawk and Keokuk came from honorable lineages, they were never tribal/civil Chiefs recognized by the Sauk. Chief Black Hawk is a common misnomer!

The article also suggests that the Sauk fought frequently with the French; this was not the case! After the early Fox Wars, the Sauk actually had relatively good relations with the French and to a later on the British, but had many problems with the Americans. In fact, according to Roger L. Nichols book, Black Hawk and the Warrior Path, the Sauk were desmayed to hear about the loss of their French allies as a result of the Louisiana Purchase.

-J. Canales, Madison, WI 16 Jun 2006

Pronunciation of oθaakiiwaki[edit]

It would be great if someone provided a sound clip of the word "oθaakiiwaki", or at least the pronunciation in IPA. Omphaloscope talk 16:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of name[edit]

From Wik/Sac and Fox: The Sac call themselves Asakiwaki (or Osakiwug) which means "people of the yellow earth" (i.e., not MISinterpreted)

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Name change[edit]

The notion that the spelling Sac is "somewhat outdated" is patently absurd considering all three of the Sac and Fox tribes spell their name "Sac." I believe they would be the experts on the subject. -Uyvsdi (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)Uyvsdi

The "Sac and Fox" name and spelling was chosen in the 19th century by the US government, not the Native people. The Meskwakis, for example, were dubbed the "Sac and Fox of Iowa" by the US. In 1900, the BIA issued a report in which it regretted having made some incorrect choices, like misspelling "Sauk" as "Sac" (Bernholz, "Standardized American Indians", University of Nebraska, 2010). The government never did change the name it used, but a survey of the modern reliable sources leads me to believe that "Sauk" has overtaken "Sac" as the preferred spelling. Encyclopedia of North American Indians (1996) spells it "Sauk", as does Britannica, the Library of Congress Subject Heading, and all three recent scholarly books on the Black Hawk War. —Kevin Myers 09:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The Sac people that I know are fully literate in English and capable of chosing their own spelling. Tribes can change their own names if they so desire. These websites for the tribes and their businesses all use the Sac spelling: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. If they didn't care for the spelling, they would change it.-Uyvsdi (talk) 02:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)Uyvsdi
If you read the websites you linked, you'll find that they support my argument. No surprise there: my position is based on, among other things, a review of the terminology used by the people themselves. Take for example your second link, the official website of the Sac & Fox tribe of Iowa. In their section on terminology, they write:

The people themselves have always called their tribe Meskwaki. The name Fox was used by the United States government…. Although the Meskwaki did not call themselves Fox, and the Sauk (or Sac) were a different tribe entirely, the United States government officially designated the Meskwaki as the Sauk and Fox of the Mississippi in Iowa.

That should sound familiar, since of course it's what I've been saying. And notice that, when they're not referring to the official name of the tribe, they often use "Sauk" (not Sac) as the preferred spelling. As your own links show, the other tribes often do that too. Check out the "Tribal History" on your 4 & 5th links for examples.
Your argument really consists of nothing more than pointing to the official names of the tribes. That's an extraordinarily misguided approach. By this reasoning, we should change the name of the Meskwaki article to Fox or to "Sac and Fox of the Mississippi in Iowa", since that's the official tribal name. But official names of tribes are not the final word when it comes to deciding on the titles of the articles on the people themselves. For example, there are 14 federally recognized tribes with "Chippewa" in their names, but, contrary to your reasoning, the Wikipedia article on the people is entitled Ojibwe even though that's not the official name of any tribe in the US.
Let me restate my basic argument, which I think you'll agree with once you realize what I'm saying. There are two types of articles on Native groups that should not be conflated: "tribe" articles and "people" articles. This is an article on the Sauk people, and we should use the most common or preferred spelling, which appears to be "Sauk". We also have articles on the official tribes, which should use the official names of the tribes, such as Sac and Fox Nation of Missouri in Kansas and Nebraska. That's it in a nutshell. Nothing complicated or controversial, really. —Kevin Myers 15:20, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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