Talk:Scottish heraldry

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Scotland High‑importance

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Clans of Scotland High‑importance

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how distinct?[edit]

Scottish Heraldry is a distinct system of armorial practice devised and used in Scotland.

This could be taken to mean that Scottish heraldry (like Japanese heraldry) is unrelated to heraldry as practiced elsewhere. How about: "Heraldry in Scotland, while broadly similar to that practiced elsewhere in western Europe, has several distinctive features which will be described here." —Tamfang (talk) 17:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Lyon recognition of clan chief[edit]

[T]he Lord Lyon King of Arms either in his ministerial capacity or in his judicial capacity decides who is Head of the Clan or Chief of the Family or Name. . .

Although this is a widespread belief, and one fostered to some degree by the Lyon Court itself, I do not believe it is entirely correct. I believe a more accurate, but admittedly confusing, account of what the Lyon's power entails can be found in the Wikipedia article Scottish clan chief. As Scotland's heraldic executive the Lord Lyon has authority to determine who bears the "undifferenced" arms of a family. In the case of a clan, this would logically amount to the clan chief's arms. But, as the other article notes, Scottish courts have expressly denied that the Lyon has authority to recognize clan chiefs. In practice the Lyon continues to act as though he has authority to recognize chiefs. For example, he grants heraldic supporters to newly registered arms of chiefs, which would not be appropriate for individuals who are merely the head of a family. If I can find any reliable source material that can coherently explain this, I will add it~~, but I'm not sure there is any~~. I think it may be an unresolved aspect of Scottish law--Tomaterols (talk) 22:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have identified the source of the above quotation. It is from the article on Scottish armorial practice authored by Innes of Edingight in Friar's Dictionary of Heraldry. Innes was Lord Lyon at the time he wrote the article. This confirms my suspicion that the position set forth was that of the Lyon Court. I have added the cite for this position, as well as a cite for the position to the contrary.--Tomaterols (talk) 14:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

accent aigu[edit]

Reinstated the final é in "Armorial de Gelré" because (1) this is a direct quote and (2) both sources cited have it accented.

(1) Fair enough. (2) No, there's no accent in the Heraldry Society reference. —Tamfang (talk) 06:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good job so far.[edit]

How did I not notice the work being done here? Unbelievable. Any way, keep up the good work on the page. FTR, B-class is somewhat generous, given the lack of civil or personal heraldry sections. Are you sure that the earliest notable Rolls of Arms was Gelre? For example, St George's Roll mentions the King of Scotland. Given that Gelre was not Scottish, how exactly is objectivity being attained here when talking about importance. Just a point there. Also could someone look into the arms of Prince Charles re: Lord of the Isles and Duke of Rothesay? Worth creating that article and a sizeable mention here, I feel. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 19:59, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For whatever it's worth, in York Minster I saw (in 1989) a plaque in memory of (i think) Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale, showing a coat of arms with an interesting inescutcheon of seven quarters, evidently for his father's dignities: Wales, Cornwall, Rothesay, Chester, Carrick, the Isles and Renfrew. I remember that Rothesay was represented by Scotland with a label of Stewart (checky argent and azure). —Tamfang (talk) 19:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Public Register prior to 1672 sunk at sea?[edit]

I have talked to the previous Lyon about the date, 1672, of the Public Register of all Arms and Bearings in Scotland, and enquired why, for a country with such a rich tradition, the register is quite recent. The answer was that the previous register sunk at sea, victim of the tradition that the register then had to be sent to the home of a newly appointed Lord Lyon, (there were no Lyon offices in those days). I can not remember the date (sometime after 1600), nor can I be sure if the ill fated cargo was either being sent to London, or returning from London. I have since spoken to others who's profession or interest is in Scottish heraldry and they have confirmed this disaster. The problem here is that, although the event is well known to the experts, there seems little reference to it in printed references. If somebody is aware of a reference that mention this event, please inform. This in my view is an important instance in the history of Scottish Heraldry that deserves a mention (however, as the fact are vague, with references). Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 11:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

motto as a grant[edit]

there is a contradiction in the Scottish heraldry and Motto articles:

Motto: In English and Scottish heraldry mottoes are not granted with armorial bearings, and may be adopted and changed at will.

Scottish heraldry: In Scottish heraldry mottoes are considered a component of the grant of arms and can be altered only by re-matriculating the arms. In English heraldry, while a motto is usually illustrated in the patent of arms, with very rare exceptions, it is not included in the verbal grant of armorial bearings.

Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 12:52, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

image problem[edit]

File:Differencing en.svg currently has technical problems, and is not displaying at all as the original image author intended... AnonMoos (talk) 09:21, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Curious. It displays properly in a tab of its own, but not when embedded in a page. —Tamfang (talk) 09:45, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"In a tab of its own" means that a local program on your computer is rendering it, not the "rsvg" software component of Wikimedia... AnonMoos (talk) 15:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Filed a bug report at "Bugzilla"; we'll see how that goes... AnonMoos (talk) 06:41, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

anglo-scottish arms[edit]

what happens when a person inherits both English and Scottish arms? 71.194.44.209 (talk) 22:19, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine it depends on one's place of residence. —Tamfang (talk) 12:03, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Matriculation[edit]

there should be more on the matriculation of arms. http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/marticulation.html 71.194.44.209 (talk) 22:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]