Talk:Sentinelese

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Chau had planned for years to convert remote tribe[edit]

It still feels like there are some unanswered questions in all this - Reuters says "Chau’s social media posts identify him as an adventurer and explorer. Responding to a travel blog query about what was on the top of his adventure list, Chau said: “Going back to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in India.”" So, if it had been his purpose for years to go and convert the North Sentinelese... was that all smoke and mirrors? Was he building an adventurer persona in public to hide his actual purpose? I guess that's not an encyclopedic question, but it still feels like we don't quite have the full picture.
(Incidentally - to continue to flog a dead horse - that podcast refers to Jim Elliot, a missionary killed under what seem to be fairly similar circumstances in Ecuador; who has his own article, and there doesn't seem to have been any suggestion he isn't sufficiently notable for one.) TSP (talk) 17:55, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
User:Winged Blades of Godric see here. --DBigXray 20:09, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Bizarre Orgy[edit]

NORTH SENTINEL ISLAND: A TIMELINE OF THE WORLD’S MOST ISOLATED TRIBE is a very detailed article on this topic and has an elaborate mention of many contacts that these tribals had with others.

One of the very bizarre incidents is mentioned there about 1970s which is sourced from the book Lonely Islands: The Andamanese; George Weber; 1998 Chapter 12. Of Matters Sexual

The contents of the article looks well sourced and based on its references we can expand the current article greatly. --DBigXray 12:59, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Add it. My girlfriend read about this and she isn’t a big researcher, so seems to be well known incident. I then looked up the incident, after she told me about it, and it does seem to be well known and documented - and certainly interesting!--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Yep, agreed. I think there's probably a lot that could be added from reliable sources to many parts of this article - I already found a source on the Pandit visits which showed that our description of it here had been quite misleading. TSP (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
User:Winged Blades of Godric Please do look at these sources here, if you haven't yet. --DBigXray 13:51, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
DBigXray, did not came across it. At a glance, seems fairly reliable but has mistakes.
For one, Portman's comment “in many ways they closely resemble the average lower class English country schoolboy.” wasn't based upon the Sentinelese, as they seem to imply.
Anyways, thanks:-) WBGconverse 14:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Now I see that the actual source is George Weber's writings, which I was using very now:-) WBGconverse 14:36, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Removal of the problemetic text based on very old source which has since been disproved[edit]

In the Sentinelese#Practices section, I find the following text problemetic: "The Sentinelese are not believed to have evolved their practices beyond those of the Stone Age. Metalworking, agriculture, and even the ability to make fire are unknown to them."[1][2][3]

Reasons why this is text problemetic:
1. The text seems to be based on the observations/writings of very old source Maurice Vidal Portman (1881), the naval officer who had kidnapped 6 Sentinelese. He was not a trained researcher. Other sources seems to be re-quoting him.
2. None of these 3 sources (likely based on portman) seem to be anthropologist (a cartographer and another one is bereaucrat, etc), none of these have actually researched Sentinelese ... using any modern scholarly methods.
3. Those anthropologists and scientists with PhDs (Madhumala and Pandit), who have actually researched Sentinelese for several years, they disagree with this text. And these experts' findings negate this text.

  1. ^ Burman, B. K. Roy, ed. (1990). Cartography for development of outlying states and islands of India: short papers submitted at NATMO Seminar, Calcutta, December 3–6, 1990. National Atlas and Thematic Mapping Organisation, Ministry of Science and Technology, Government of India. p. 203. OCLC 26542161.
  2. ^ Master Plan 1991–2021 for Welfare of Primitive Tribes of Andaman and Nicobar Islands, Sec. II Ch. 21. Dept. of Tribal Welfare, Andaman and Nicobar Islands Administration; as reproduced in Andaman Book
  3. ^ Burton, Adrian (2012). "A world of their own". Frontiers in Ecology and the Environment. 10 (7): 396–396.

My action: I am deleting parts that are not correct (e.g. no firemaking or metalworking skills) and retaining only those parts are still correct (no agriculture). Thanks. 222.164.212.168 (talk) 19:28, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

  • Remove the said content. IP 222.164.212.168 I am of the similar opinion and believe this content is misleading. Portman was only 20 years old naval officer. His observations should not be given undue importance in the article. --DBigXray 13:54, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing[edit]

Please don't use media-sources other than to cover the aspects of Chau's death (which, FWIW, smacks of RECENTISM and something, that I don't plan to touch any-time soon or at-least until the euphoria recedes).

I have been going through the surge in reports over the last fortnight and FWIW, a lot of the time, they have either indulged in their own novel-research, (probably unknowingly) and have distorted or generated new facts.

There are ample high-quality scholarly sources (publication in reputed journals, books, dissertations et al) to cover every domain of the topic, in a far rigid manner. Please use them. WBGconverse 06:59, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Dr. M. Sasikumar, Deputy Director, Anthropological Survey of India.
Looks like a good source to expand this and the Geo article.--DBigXray 13:29, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
DBigXray, I've already used that in that article:-) WBGconverse 11:22, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree with you. Please review my edits from last night and feel free to take out the ones that do not go along with this approach you have suggested. Thanks in advance. 222.164.212.168 (talk) 14:39, 4 December 2018 (UTC)


Stop glorifying outsider contacts with tribes[edit]

A good read here. I finished my edits last night. I came across this article this morning. All contacts puts them at risk, of disease, etc, even those 'so called authorised" contacts by Pandit and Madhumala, both of whom have accepted they regret their expeditions and that they have the respect for the tribes. I would have edited differently, had I read this article before my edits. Those who are going to review my edits, please read this first and rephrase/modify my edits accordingly.

Proposal: Pare down the contacts section, perhaps merge all subsections into one in very condensed manner. Also, we must provide a subsection on top of this section that shows their attitude to contact "which initially is nonviolent and peaceful" an they allow contact on their own terms, beyond a point they want us to stay out, they provide ample warnings with gestures, killing invaders is a very last desperate measure they undertake. There nothing savage, primitive or violent about them, and no headhunder phenomenons either. All these needs to be laid out. Though the misconception of being savages lends them unfair reputation but indirectly protects thems from our modern destructive world.

Thanks. 222.164.212.168 (talk) 15:05, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that including reports of outsider contact "glorifies" them in any way. If these visits are problematic (and they certainly appear to be) they should all be reported fully. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
I definitely don't think we should remove encyclopedic information in the article, just because of this dubious and poorly argued opinion piece linked here. The previous contact missions are all important events in the history of these people and should remain.--Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 21:33, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Disagree with this proposal. IP 222.164.212.168 if you feel there is a content in the article that glorifies something, you are free to suggests improvements for that on the talk page. removing the information is no solution. Even if you have positive thoughts for the sentinelese, the best way I can suggest is to mention these contacts and also note how that contact caused harm. So as to deter future Chaus. --DBigXray 13:59, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Reliability[edit]

Is this source reliable? WBGconverse 14:26, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

It's a book published by a reputable publisher, I believe it fulfils WP:RS? TSP (talk) 15:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
It's obviously reliable, at first glances but quite a lot of details are not any corroborated anywhere else. I will write my detailed opinion, a few hours later:-) WBGconverse 15:37, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Won't need the book at any case:-) WBGconverse 08:33, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
And, can anybody access the contents of this page? Even Wayback doesn't seem to work for me....... WBGconverse 14:37, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Seems to be in Wayback Machine. TSP (talk) 15:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! WBGconverse 10:27, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

2006 case[edit]

Did any source, from that span, mention about the retrieval of a lone body? All of the scholarly sources that I access mention that none was recovered and after the bodies were located by the helicopter, (buried in the sand), the administration did not pursue the issue ay further, despite pressure from certain quarters and the families.WBGconverse 10:31, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

User:Winged Blades of Godric Yes, The Coast Guard commandant Gaur who had gone with divers in a helicopter to get the 2 bodies. had mentioned in NDTV interview that they were only able to dig up the body but before they could remove all the ropes tied to his body attaching him with the second body (Still buried) the tribals came attacking, so they had to return empty handed. Further attempt was foiled by the tribals and the Coast guard gave up. To a direct question on how many bodies he retrieved, he said none. So I believe him and agree that this is what actually happened. Somehow there is a conflicting report from NDTV that they were able to retrieve 1 body and return it to the family, this I believe is not correct. Cuz the commandant himself said this, I would trust him more.--DBigXray 11:17, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks:-) Shoddy journalism........ WBGconverse 11:50, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Chau's Diary[edit]

has any media yet uploaded John's diary? WBGconverse 20:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, WaPost has published, See the section Talk:Sentinelese#Chau had planned for years to convert remote tribe, The handwriting is atrocious though. --DBigXray 20:09, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Goodness. Atrocious is mildly put. WBGconverse 20:29, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
LoL you were warned Face-smile.svg, But it was still interesting though, I was able to make a reasonable sense of the first 2-3 pages, after which my brain decided enough is enough and revolted against reading that torturous scroll any further. I just hope some media house will publish the transcript after which I will read that again. If you have any specific query, I may be able it help. Basically anything useful in those pages have already been reported by Washington Post and some popular media houses. So if you have followed WaPo's coverage of Chau (as I did), you wont find anything new in those scrolls. --DBigXray 20:36, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Irist times have published a decent transcript [1] that added some new facts from the journal. --DBigXray 20:43, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Photographs[edit]

Doesn't there exist any photo of the Sentinelese(s) qualify under the GODL criterion or our WP:NFCC criterion? WBGconverse 20:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Ping User:Adamgerber80 and User:Gazoth for comments. There are a few images from coast guard and a few CC by SA images which I believe can be uploaded but I am not too sure if the images of coast guard fall under GODL, it should but as I said I am not sure.--DBigXray 20:12, 6 December 2018 (UTC)