Talk:Shahab al-Din Yahya ibn Habash Suhrawardi

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Untitled[edit]

The founder of the Suhrawardiyya was Abu Hafs Umar al-Suhrawardi. See Suhrawardi, The Philosophy of Illumination, ed. John Walbridge & Hossein Ziai (1999: Provo, UT. Brigham Young University), p. 166.

Wrong Information[edit]

This is one of the most biased and fabricated articles on wikipedia. Suhrawardi never promoted Zoroastrianism, rather he was a devout follower of Islam.


Shahabuddin Suhrawardy was a Sunni and a devout Muslim. Stop this Iranian nationalist propaganda and lies.

Renamed[edit]

I renamed to "al-Suhrawardi" from "Suhrawardi Maqdul" as the first forms seemed slightly mroe common and more "authentic". Maybe the "al" could be dropped? Flammifer 05:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I renamed again, from al-Suhrawardi to Shahab al-Din Suhrawardi, which seems like a better name. In the meantime, I had created other pages of people called "al-Suhrawardi". Just after moving (While looking around for double redirects), I found that Shihab al-Din Suhrawardi seems like an even more popular way of writing, even though the form with an "a" was more common on wikipedia. If someone's really bored, he can try to convince an administrator to move the page (We want to preserve the history, not just copy-paste the content). Flammifer 13:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

interestingly he was from the suhrawad village ,the village name itself is from sohr[red] and vard[rose].citation:iranvich,bahram frahvashi.Spitman 21:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


Why[edit]

Strange bias to indicate Suhrawardi as a Iranian filosopher. He was a Persian but contributed to Islamic not Zoroastrian philosophy contrary to what this seems to imply here. abdulnr 20:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a debate about how much Zoroastrian and how much Islamic Suhrawadi was. I think he tried to synthesize the ideas into one concept. You might want to look at these google books [1] and draw your own conclusion. It seems a Zoroastrian school in India took up his philosophy. --alidoostzadeh 21:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the source by Mohammad Kamal since it erroneously claimed Suhrawardi has Kurdish poetry which he does not unfortunately and he is a quoting a certain Mullah Salih. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

confusion[edit]

This was posted on the article page. -Pollinosisss (talk) 06:44, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

"This article creates confusion. There were two Shihab-ud-din Suharwardi. The most famous and prominent Shihab-ud-din Suharwardi was the founder of the Suharwardi Order and the author of Awarif-al-Ma'arif. While the person discussed below in the article is a different Shihab ud Din . He was an Ishraqi Philosopher and not a Sufi. Please clear the article and make it relevant to the heading of the Great Sufi master Shaikh ul Shuyukh Shihab ud din Suharwardi who lied buried in Iraq. He was not murdered."

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Kurdish[edit]

It seems that it's certainly possible he was a Kurd. What's really dumb though, is that in the text, this is said:

This Azerbaijani inhabited town was then part of Garrus province despite its non-Kurdish population but it is today part of Zanjan province in Azarbaijan region [3] [4] and is inhabited by Azerbaijani people

While the second source that's been stated to support this statement ( http://books.google.be/books?id=EwB7Zo7lVp0C&pg=PA12&dq=%22Suhraward(Suhrabard)+is+located+in+the+municipality+of+Azerbaijan+in+Iran%22&hl=en&ei=UukwTqrDLsnzsga35KigCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Suhraward%20(Suhrabard)%20is%20located%20in%20the%20municipality%20of%20Azerbaijan%20in%20Iran%22&f=false ), clearly states otherwise: We only know that he was born in Suhraward or 'Suhrabard', a Kurdish village between Zenjan and Bijar.


Znertu (talk) 23:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

cleaned up[edit]

I have coalesced the sources that say Kurd/Persian to Iranian as it cleared in the lead. Also one source, "M. Kamal, Mulla Sadra's Transcendent Philosophy, p.12, Ashgate Publishing Inc., 136 pp., 2006, ISBN 0-7546-5271-8 (see p.12)" is quoting a Mullah Salih Ibrahimi, who claims Suhrawardi wrote in Kurdish. [2]. In actuality, he did not write in Kurdish. Anyhow I have kept the source, but this is the wrong information. If we want to be precise, Suhrwardi probably spoke one of the Fahlaviyat dialects [3] NW Iranian languages..but speakers of such dialects have been called "Kord", "Fors", "Iranian" etc...--96.255.251.165 (talk) 02:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

The kurdish descent of al-suhrawardi and the bias of persian scholars.[edit]

Shehab a-din al-suhrawardi was kurdish in his descent.this is obious. becous it was a kurdish village, and he wrote in kurdish. there are other kurdish sufis named (al-) suhrawardi, and no one say they where persians.

i respect the persian scholars, but they have bias' they tend to call to important kurds figures -'persian' becaus, they inhabited a region today belong to iran, or was part of imperial iran in some point. delating the difference between descent to citizen. 84.111.157.95 (talk) 14:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Suhrawardi did not write in Kurdish. The general term "Kurd" was used for different Iranian tribal groups back then, but it seems Suhrawardi based on the Fahlaviyat of Zanjan spoke a Fahlavi language as his native language, and not modern Kurdish per se. Overall, the terminology Iranian (Iranian people) covers both Kurdish and Persian as an ethnic group, so there should not be a problem. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:32, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Suhrawardi was not a Turkish and ip edit warring[edit]

Unfortunately, this is another example of nation building here. A recent ip is adding Suhrawrdi as an Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan was a simple geography in the 12th century but the ip is making him link to the modern Turkish speaking group that has adopted the name Azerbaijani in the 20th century) and another ip has reverted him. The first ip's sources are not valid sources as they are local Azerbaijani republic sources who have tendency to Turkicize pre-Turkish groups and peoples. These sources may be dismissed per Victor Schnirelmann.

  • Victor Schnirelmann, "Value of the Past: Myths, Identity and Politics in Transcaucasia". National Museum of Ethnology, Osaka, Japan, 2001. pg 146: "The Azeri revisionists kept emphasizing their early local cultural heritage in order to claim indigenous status, and thus the right to all the local territories, based on the traditional settler principle. At the same time, they gradually began to Turkify the early indigenous inhabitants". Currently, there are some Azerbaijani embassy sites claiming even Caucasian Albanians, Medes and Sumerians as Turks.
  • Overall, regional sources should not be used and Western specialist sources should be used in topics of ancient history as regional sources have a tendency to bias things. For example, the book by Mustafa Kamal (likely a Kurdish person) claims that Suhrawardi has Kurdish poetry which is also blatantly false.
  • Walbridge, who is alive scholar, has written several books on Suhrawardi and consequently can be cited as a reliable specialist sources.
  • So what matters as usual for Wikipedia is Wesern Scholarly sources. per WP:RS as it is obvious that local and regional historians from the republic of Azerbaijan will try to Turkify Suhrawardi.
  • But besides that, anyone with some knowledge of Suhrawardi can easily dismiss any claim of him being Turkish (i.e. Azerbaijani Turkish). He was immersed in pre-Islamic Iranian philosophy and his ancestry's name "Amirak" is a Persian/Kurdish suffix. He also wrote in Persian and Arabic, and his name "Suhraward" is a Middle Persian word meaning "red rose". Also Zanjan at that time had its own Pahlavi language (Hamdullah Mustawafi mentions it even after the Mongol invasion) and Suhraward is mentioned as a Kurdish village before the Mongols. So he was not Turkish but rather Iranian speaking. Also his affiliation with pre-Islamic Iranian philosophy which he revived and synthesized with post-Islamic Iranian society shows his Iranian cultural background while he had absolutely nothing to do with Turkish culture.
  • Bosworth, C.E.,"Zanjan", Encyclopaedia of Islam , New Ed., vol. 11:447. "..and also stated that the ihabitants spoke "pure Pahlawi", i.e. a Median or nothern form of Persian".
  • On Suhraward, see again Encyclopaedia of Islam.. it is mentioned as Kurdish village. So either way Suhrawardi spoke some sort of Iranian language (be it Persian or Kurdish), but was not Turkish. Infact his background as a expositor of pre-Islamic Iranian/Zoroastrian/KayKhusrawian philosophy makes it 100% impossible for him to be of any Turkish background.
  • Suhrawardi was a Shafi'ite Muslim while Turkish nomads that entered the area from the Saljuq era were not sedentary and overwhelmingly Hanafi.
  • Also an Azerbaijani Turkish did not exist during the time of Suhrawardi. That is why you do not see any classical work calling any author "Azerbaijani Turk" or "Azerbaijani". And no serious source would call a reviver of pre-Islamic Persian philosophy a Turk.
    • (“Transcaucasia in XI-XV centuries” in Rostislav Borisovich Rybakov (editor), History of the East. 6 volumes. v. 2. “East during the Middle Ages: Chapter V., 2002. – ISBN 5-02-017711-3. http://gumilevica.kulichki.com/HE2/he2510.htm. Quote: “In the XIV-XV cc., as the Azerbaijani Turkic-language ethnos was beginning to form, arose its culture, as well. At first it had no stable centers of its own (recall that one of its early representatives, Nesimi, met his death in Syria) and it is rather difficult at that time to separate from the Osman (Turkish) culture. Even the ethnic boundary between the Turks and the Azerbaijanis stabilized only in the XVI c., and even then it was not quite defined yet. Nevertheless, in the XV c., two centers of the Azerbaijani culture are forming: the South Azerbaijan and (lowland) Karabakh. They took final shape later, in the XVI-XVIII cc. Speaking of the Azerbaijan culture originating at that time, in the XIV-XV cc., one must bear in mind, first of all, literature and other parts of culture organically connected with the language. As for the material culture, it remained traditional even after the Turkicization of the local population. However, the presence of a massive layer of Iranians that took part in the formation of the Azerbaijani ethnos, have imposed its imprint, primarily on the lexicon of the Azerbaijani language which contains a great number of Iranian and Arabic words. The latter entered both the Azerbaijani and the Turkish language mainly through the Iranian intermediary. Having become independent, the Azerbaijani culture retained close connections with the Iranian and Arab cultures. They were reinforced by common religion and common cultural-historical traditions.”<
    • Olivier Roy, "The New Central Asia: The Creation of Nations", I.B.Tauris, 2000.pg 18:"The concept of an Azeri identity barely appears at all before 1920. Up until that point Azerbaijan had been purely a geographic area. Before 1924, the Russians called the Azeri Tatars 'Turks' or 'Muslims'. Prior to 1914, the reformist leaders of Azerbaijan stressed their Turkish and Muslim identity.
  • And there is not a single Western scholarly book (search google scholar from prominent Suhrawardi scholars in the area) source that mentions Suhrawardi as Turkish.
  • Consequently pushing local non-peer reviewed and contradictatory to Western WP:RS sources is pushing WP:fringe; which should be absolutely discouraged! Thank you.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:36, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Yet More on the Kurdish/Persian Issue[edit]

Gomada edited the article to say Suhrawardi was Kurdish (subsequently reverted by HamidRJ), citing a Western scholarly source: M. Kamal, Mulla Sadra's Transcendent Philosophy, p. 12, Ashgate Publishing Inc., 2006, ISBN 0-7546-5271-8. That source does indeed say that Suhrawardi was Kurdish, with about a half-page of argument. However, a review of the book I found in a scholarly journal casts doubt on the reliability of Kamal's identification. The review is: Alparslan Açıkgenc, Review, Philosophy East & West vol. 59 no. 3 (Jul. 2009), pp. 385-394 (JSTOR link: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40469136). This is what the reviewer has to say about Kamal's claim, on p. 388 of the review: "In the second chapter there is also a claim concerning the ethnic origin of Suhrawardi as a Kurd, and the main reference is to Shahrazuhri's well-known work Nuzhat al-Arwah wa Rawdat al-Afrah fi Tarikh al-Hukama. But it is understood from the footnote that this work was not available to Kamal because he takes his citation from Mehdi Amin Razavi's Suhrawardi and the School of Illumination. I went through almost all the pages discussing Suhrawardi and was not able to substantiate the claim. . . . Kamal claims that according to Shahrazuhri this is the name of the town, which is supposedly Kurdish. But I was not able to find this claim in Shahrazuhri's cited work." Therefore, given all the other undisputed references indicating Suhrawardi was Persian, I don't think Kamal's book is sufficient to warrant changing the article. So I agree with HamidRJ's reversion. Dmvjjvmd (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2014 (UTC)