Talk:Shanghai

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Former good article nominee Shanghai was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
December 9, 2010 Good article nominee Not listed
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Pronunciation mess[edit]

The Shanghainese IPA was already in the infobox (and dealt with better, since it should have tone numbers). Pinyin is phonetic, so IPA isn't needful and (if included) should just go in the infobox and not a (badly-formatted) version of the {{zh}} template. The English pronunciation is straightforward and therefore unnecessary (WP:NOTADICTIONARY). There will be some native speakers who pronounce it shaahng, some as shaing, and (for English) neither is "more correct". — LlywelynII 07:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Now, that said, tone marks could helpfully be included, since it is needful. It's already in the Chinese infobox but could also replace the title of the provincial infobox so it's readily visible. — LlywelynII 07:11, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

In standard Mandarin, 上 is pronounced shaahng. So if Mandarin is the standard language of China, then shaahng would be the correct pronunciation. -JesseW900 (talk) 14:44, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
@JesseW900: I'm afraid that you're missing the point. As I have explained to you previously, Wikipedia uses pinyin as detailed in the Chinese style guide. IPA pronunciations only clutter things up and don't help much - pinyin with tone marks is much easier to read than IPA.  Philg88 talk 15:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
I understand what you mean. But from a practical point of view, not many people can read either pinyin or Mandarin IPA. Therefore showing the English IPA is the best way to convey the pronunciation. -JesseW900 (talk) 15:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
If you want China-related articles to use IPA rather than pinyin, then this is not the correct place to argue the case. You need to start a request for comments at an appropriate venue in order to change existing guideline. IMHO, such a proposal is unlikely to gain much support based on the long standing consensus to use pinyin.  Philg88 talk 15:28, 4 May 2015 (UTC) .
I see. I agree pinyin should be the standard notation for China-related articles and I didn't mean to change that. However, can I just add English IPAs as "footnotes" (e.g. using [1]), to help clarify the pronunciation where necessary? -JesseW900 (talk) 17:26, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
The issue then arises of when it is "necessary". In the case of "Shanghai", it certainly isn't. You might like to raise the issue at Wikiproject China Talk to gauge how other editors feel about your suggestion.  Philg88 talk 18:15, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
I think that in the case of "Shanghai", an English IPA as a footnote would be both useful and "necessary." Though the official and common Chinese pronunciation is shaahng, English speakers in the U.S. (and perhaps other places) always pronounce it as shaing. Thus, a clarification for the pronunciation of the word should be really helpful. Tony Tan · talk 19:42, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

History section[edit]

Some separate issues:

  • The early sections state "Shanghai belonged..." and discuss it as if it were already existent by the Spring and Autumn Period. We probably shouldn't do that, as:
  • Personally, I'd like to see a source that the land that Shanghai is on was existent by then: the Yangtze deposits enormous amounts of silt: the entire peninsula Haimen and Qidong sit on was formed within the last few centuries.
  • It would also be good if there were a map or animated map of the formation of Shanghai's peninsula. The present downtown is landlocked but much of Pudong is relatively new.
  • It would also be good to list and cite the earliest documentary evidence that Shanghai or something like Shanghai existed. I need to dig the book out from under something but I seem to remember seeing that the earliest evidence of settlement in the area of the Old City was c. 3rd century and the evidence for Shanghai itself was after that.
  • Since the city wall didn't exist since the 16th century, we shouldn't be using a picture of it to illustrate the ancient city.
  • "From... 1292 until Shanghai officially became a city in 1927" is probably not the best way to phrase this. In English, county seats can be towns or cities; in Chinese, "city" can be county- or prefecture-level but neither are municipalities, which is what Shanghai became in 1927. Besides, didn't getting the City God(s) Temple upgrade the status of Shanghai? What is the editor trying to say that Shanghai wasn't measuring up to? (Provincial-level municipalities didn't exist at all in Old China.)
  • No need to sugarcoat the racism present but the development of the city by the international settlement should be addressed: Shanghai had China's first railroad, first (iirc) telegraph line, HSBC, &c.
  • The present phrasing makes it sound like Japan's war crimes in Shanghai occurred mainly during its withdrawal, which seems doubtful. I'm sure it was horrible, but better to give some context and detail rather than just hurl epithets as well, even if that means linking to the description in the History of Shanghai article rather than to the main Japanese war crimes one. Similarly "a railway station" seems needlessly inexact, given that Shanghai had two. Is the photo from the south one?
  • Shanghai did not "become" a center for radical leftism in the '50s and '60s. It had been one for the entirety of leftism's existence in China. It's not propaganda to mention the city's importance to the CCP or the slaughter of CCP members carried out in the '20s that filled up Longhua. Both the forced and the volunteer zhiqing should probably be addressed.
  • 'Productivity' is probably being misused, unless it's only relative to that in other areas of China.

 — LlywelynII 09:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Much of the land of Shanghai is actually quite ancient, although the eastern and northern parts were only formed in the last 1500 years or so. The southwestern portion (Qingpu, Songjiang, Minhang, etc.) was home to several important neolithic cultures dating to as early as 4000 BC, see Majiabang culture, Songze culture, Liangzhu culture, Maqiao culture (Songze and Maqiao are both named after their type sites in Shanghai). I'll try to add a summary of them to the section when I have time.
  • Re "becoming" a center of leftism, it's quite accurate IMO. Although Shanghai was the center of leftism in the 1920s, it wasn't as radical as later, and was quite effectively extinguished by Chiang Kai-shek's White Terror, allied with Du Yuesheng's Green Gang.
  • Japanese war crimes were mainly committed at the beginning of the war, during the fierce Battle of Shanghai, rather than the end of the war. The railway station depicted in the iconic crying baby photo is the old South Station (not the current one in Xuhui) which was completely destroyed by Japanese bombing in 1937. I've edited the caption to clarify that.
  • I've edited the article to address some of your more minor points.
-Zanhe (talk) 21:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Shanghai[edit]

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 17:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Shanghai. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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N Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 15:15, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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