Talk:Siberian cat

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Older discussion[edit]

Don't use machine translators for Wikipedia please. Also http://www.europets.info/eu/?alias=breed_detail&breed_id=475


Does anybody have a link to, or any result of the mentioned study at UCD?

No, but see the link I just added in the "external links" section. 128.175.205.52 20:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I have cleaned up and pruned back the external links section for the moment - it seems to have been quickly turning into a laundry list of links promoting various breeders and personal pages/groups, and it would probably be a good idea to reference the "Links normally to be avoided" section in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_links before adding anything else. Vmccar5316 in particular had 3 seperate links to the same website for her cattery and self-run breed club.

At the risk of sounding like a chastising parent, let's remember this is an encyclopedia, not a webring. PhoenixFlare 19:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

History[edit]

What the bullshit written in History? "used to fight"? WTF? In referenced article written: "Кот предпочитал гулять сам по себе, пока однажды сильно не подрался с котом Горбачева, жившего по соседству. Медведевского питомца целый месяц лечили с помощью антибиотиков. И дабы уберечь Дорофея от последствий выяснения отношений с противниками, его кастрировали." what means "Dorofey isnt restricted in their freedom until he fights Gorbachev's cat, who (Gorvachev) lived in the neighborhood."


"Nevskaya Maskaradnaya" was breed of first Medevedev's cat, which died.

Nothing written about origins of breed. Where, when? Only machine translated text from russian yellow press


References[edit]

To start things off in this area, i've added wording stating that the UC Davis study is unconfirmed...Have not been able to locate anything via Google or the UC Davis homepage as of yet. If anyone can find a solid, verifiable source of results or progress for the study, please change what i've written and add the approriate info in the references section. - PhoenixFlare 12:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from editing correct information. The previous versions showed that the Siberians had been accepted into Championship status in February, which is correct. I've even shown some cats and won points in Championship class since the change. The correct information is also referenced in the external link given. It is incorrect to state that they were moved to Miscellaneous class in February. Arbilad 06:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

My apologies for not mentioning the championship status as well - I am not a breeder, nor someone that shows cats, and I was under the impression that stating they were in the Miscellaneous class would imply they were eligible for championship status in that class. That said, after doing a little further digging on CFA's website, it appears the breed profile page is out of date, as the actual page for the Misc. class does not list the Siberian - so away it goes apparently. PhoenixFlare 14:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)edited 15:02, 31 July 2006

Also, the only study I remember at UC Davis was a general study of the cat genome in general. I remember that there was hope in the Siberian community at the time that the study could be used to scientifically verify the hypoallergenic feature of the siberian. I think that the fact of the study, combined with the hope that they might track down why siberians are hypoallergenic, to become a belief in the existence of a study at UC Davis to see why siberians are hypoallergenic. Arbilad 06:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be a good thing if someone could find a more authoritative source for the info on litter size and lifespan - i've replaced the previous links with one that contains the same info and doesn't give a 403 error, but it still doesn't look like a wonderful source. PhoenixFlare 19:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hypoallergenic[edit]

I’d like to RFC for adjusting the FUR / HYPOALLERGENIC section. My understanding is that the Siberian’s saliva allegedly does not include the relevant protein (or at least includes it in limited amounts) that gives rise to allergy, rather than the fur itself. Saliva is normally found in great quantities in cat fur (and dander), from grooming, but it is not the fur itself that is hypoallergenic (or rather, it is not the fur per se that people are allergic to in the first place, but the saliva on the fur and dander).

Dander is dried saliva that has flaked off. Since saliva is the source of the Fel-d1 protein, it becomes present on the fur and skin when a cat grooms. When the saliva dries and flakes off, the allergen can then permeate a house. The majority of people allergic to cats are allergic to dander, but some people are sensitive to the fur in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.172.0.195 (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It looks like cat skin generates the allergen as well. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091674905802003. It's a small sample size, but they claim statistical significance. The abstract doesn't say how much of the allergen is present in skin vs. saliva.Natureluvr68 (talk) 22:29, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Writing Standards[edit]

Just a request here that if you're going to edit the article, at least make sure you can write clearly - i've just removed/edited a bunch of changes made by 70.169.82.67 that mostly amounted to removing parts of existing content, and adding their own inbetween with no concern for grammar or sentence structure.

Also removed at least 2 or 3 attempts by the same person to substitute links to a source with links to the main page for her personal cattery - this is supposed to be at least somewhat like an encyclopedia, not a place to advertise your business. PhoenixFlare 13:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Color Point Siberians[edit]

Please, when editing this article, keep in mind that we should avoid speculation or debate. While there are those who debate whether color point siberians are true siberians, the fact is that no major registry has a breed registered as Neva Masquerade. In any organization in which the colorpoint siberian is accepted, they are accepted as a color class of the Siberian. I only know of one registry, a minor one in Russia, that has a breed called Neva Masquerade. If I'm wrong, please post a link to the major registry's website that registers color point siberians as Neva Masquerade. 8.7.87.67 21:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


Kahavi 11:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC) FIFe does not recognize colourpoints (the Neva Masquerade) as a colour. More about the breed standard can be found here: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/breeds/breeds_prf_stn.html

FIFe does not recognize the color point Siberian, but neither do they recognize a separate breed called "Neva Masquerade". There is no such breed. Simpley not all cat registries accept all colors of cats. Arbilad 04:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact, rereading FIFe's breed standard for the Siberian, nowhere do they mention "Neva Masquerade". They only mention that pointed patterns are not allowed. This further demonstrates that color point is simply a different coloring for Siberians, and not a separate breed. Arbilad 04:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Cats portal[edit]

A summary of this article appears on a rotational basis in Portal:Cats under the "Selected breed" section. Any improvement to this article's lead section should be copied to the relevant entry on Portal:Cats/Selected_breed. --165.21.154.90 (talk) 06:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed, or article could be gutted![edit]

Just a reminder: this article badly needs citations. Claims made without citations can be deleted by any editor, even anonymous ones, at any time. If I claim is deleted because it lacks citations, it should not be re-added without a citation. All it would take is one editor to decide they doubt what is presented, and they could delete most of the article! — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation[edit]

An anonymous editor flagged the breed standard section (and only that section!) as a copyright violation. Sure enough, The Cat Fanciers' Association Complete Cat Book by Mordecai Siegal, Cat Fanciers' Association, pages 200-202 appears to contain nearly identical text. [Google Books can show you the relevant excerpt. The link given is just a copy from that book. I think the Copyvio template is overkill, and the correct solution is just to check in a new version minus the text, but the template warns me to "Do not edit this page until an administrator has resolved this issue." (In this case, I'll assume the section is what I shouldn't edit, not the entire article.) So I'm leaving be for now. — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for locating the original source. The material has been removed. Form letter blanket warning to follow. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed[edit]

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from this URL: http://books.google.com/books?id=2r3pVzSopxQC&pg=PA201-IA15&dq=%22+The+head+is+a+modified+wedge+of+medium+size+with+rounded+contours%22&sig=ACfU3U27jTpJ-sPfNF6fk3alk19eq9RfVg#PPA201-IA14,M1. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Indoor Biotechnologies and my revert[edit]

I reverted this well intentioned edit, and I want to make it clear why. First, the easy reasons: The further details about Fel d 1's source are tangential; such information belongs in Fel d 1. The bit about light and dark colored cats is completely off topic. There were a bunch of claims about average Fel d 1 claims; they were completely absent citations. We need citations for these numbers. Where did you get them? As to the Indoor Biotechnologies test, I can dig up a low quality citation: [1]. What do we learn? "INDOOR Biotechnologies did not carry out research on the samples and was not responsible for collecting the samples or validating the results." It's entirely possible that the samples were contaminated before the test. And were the Siberian results low? "The...allergen found in the Siberian samples...are high and indicate that these cats produce significant amounts of allergen. Part of the confusion is created by the fact that the results of the mixed breed cat are exceptionally high..." Added with care to note the weaknesses of the tests and a citation, it would be an okay addition. But as it stood, it was too problematic. — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

An article of interest and a few proposals[edit]

There is an article at http://solacefarm.com/dallasnews.htm that I think will be of interest ot this discussion. Unfortunately, the Solace Farm article has no mention of the UC Davis study, but it does refer to and contradict the Indoor Biotechnologies test mentioned in the hypo-allergenic section. The article link at Solace Farm to Dallas News is a dead link (I think because the article is from 2001), but the article does exist. My search for the phrase "Siberians produce less dander than most cats" (a quote of the Dallas article used in the Solace Farm article) in Dallas' "Story Archive" brought me to the page "http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=DM&p_theme=dm&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_hidethis=no&s_siteloc=&s_issue_id=&s_size=&s_issue=no&s_search_type=&d_datemode=0&d_searched=yes&d_datemode=0&s_dispstring=Siberians%20produce%20less%20dander%20than%20most%20cats&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=(Siberians%20produce%20less%20dander%20than%20most%20cats)&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no" which led me to the correct article:
" Cat GOT YOUR nose?
Siberians may be the answer for some allergy-rddled pet lovers
Author: Steve Steinberg Staff Writer
Publish Date: March 24, 2001
Word Count: 1324
Document ID: 0ED81DEA69DDD9D2
Cat lovers, this is nothing to sneeze at.
The Siberian breed has become hot news among allergy sufferers who have always wanted a cat but feared the resulting wheezes, sneezes, hives, watery eyes and other problems. But some breeders and allergic owners say that many people who react to other cats can cuddle a Siberian without trouble.
Melissa Young of Arlington has a 21/2-year-old nephew, Keegan, whose immunodeficiency disorder makes him allergic to dogs and cats. "

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU HAVE TO PAY TO READ THE FULL ARTICLE.

A summary of the Solace Farm article.
In the first section, several examples are given of cat allergy sufferers, some life-threateningly allergic, being able to interact with Siberians with little or no reactions. Then two prominent scientists say they know of no study on the Siberian cat breed that yielded results of Siberians' having significantly lower Fel D 1 levels.

The next paragraph talks about the Indoor Biotechnologies test mentioned in the hypo-allergenic section. The breeder who ordered(?) the test said the test revealed lower levels of Fel D 1 in the Siberian, but the lab says the results proved just the OPPOSITE. Then respected scientists discuss an oily skin theory; though both agree the theory is, at the very least, "far-fetched." A Siberian breeder says the breed is not hypo-allergenic. An allergist reccomends ways to reduce reactions and a source that will provide more ways to minimize reactions is given.

The last paragraph theorizes about HOW asthma and allergy sufferers can own and interact with Siberian cats and suggests that the placebo effect, aka the power of suggestion, is the basis for allergy sufferers non-reactiveness. In other words, these people believe there will be no allergic reaction, therefore they have no allergic reaction.

Reference 6 ought to be clarified so that people know that Siberian cat results were HIGH not low and that the mixed-breed cat's results were FREAKISHLY high for unknown reasons and therefore can not be accurately compared to the Siberian (or any other breed or mix).

Information on the size of the siberian needs to be added. The other large breeds: Maine Coon, Norwegian Forest Cat, Ragdoll, and Pixie Bob all have weight statistics. I'd like to know where Siberians rank. I feel like it ought to be 2nd or 3rd.

I propose the creation/alteration of a section that addresses the CONTROVERSY surrounding the Siberian's (level of) hypo-allergenicness. I believe a section or mini-section should also be created to educate potential buyers about the behaviors/actions that SCRUPULOUS breeders will use/do to help cat-allergic, potential buyers make informed decisions.

Some tests that scrupulous Siberian cat breeders will help potential buyers to do are:
~ Breeders will, on request, mail a piece of siberian fur to potential buyers' home. These pieces of fur could be put on potential buyers' bed pillow to see if they have a reaction at night because sensitivity is supposedly greater at night.
~ Breeders will allow you to visit their cattery, arrange for you to visit a cattery closer to your home, or find and arrange for you to visit Siberian owners in your area, so you can interact with the cat and determine if the breed is right for you and if, for you, the cat is hypo-allergenic.
~ Breeders should be willing to do all of this with no down-payments or requests for money beyond asking you to pay for the shipping costs of the fur sample.

Has anyone called or emailed UC Davis and asked for records of the infamous study, or for a confirmation that the study happened?

by,
Gatorgirl7563 (talk) 19:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
who's never even seen a Siberian in person but thinks Gordey Sant Andre is the most beautiful cat in the world

...

SIBERIAN ALLERGEN STUDIES STATUS UC DAVIS STUDY

The Fel d1 allergen study was performed at UC Davis through a grant from the Morris Foundation grant. The first phase of the study is listed as completed and waiting for publication (see below). Dr Leslie Lyons has said that she will not make a public comment until peer publication.

D06FE-071: Analysis of the Feline Allergy Gene in Domestic Cat Breeds http://www.morrisanimalfoundation.org/studies/completed-studies/D06FE-071

The small fur tests that were sent to Indoor Biotechnologies should be removed from Wikipedia. While InBio cannot legally make specific comments on the samples, but they have expressed their displeasure about the issue to anyone who contacts them. The high sample was roughly 60x higher than is seen on the majority of work by universities or NIH. Many Siberian breeders are aware that the samples were sent to InBio by a breeder using a false name.

Through Siberian Research, many Siberians have been tested for allergen levels in fur and saliva. Both fur and saliva sampling are subject to biological testing errors, but these can be found by using multiple tests of both the saliva and fur. InBio will confirm that samples from Siberians are being tested on a routine basis. Leslie Lyons helped develop the current methods we use for testing adult cats.

Please note, mating low-allergen Siberians does not always produce all low-allergen offspring. I have studied allergen levels from over 100 matings. Mating a normal allergen sire and dam does always produce high-allergen offspring.

My first time on Wiki, so please forgive my making a mess of the revision history. I didn't get the links correct the first few times around... Ok, I really should have used the SANDBOX.

Tom Lundberg, Director of Studies Siberian Research, Inc April 17th, 2010

  1. (cur | prev) 07:19, 17 April 2010 98.232.219.107 (talk) (12,834 bytes) (→Reproduction: Added two primary genetic diseases and
  2. (cur | prev) 05:56, 17 April 2010 98.232.219.107 (talk) (12,086 bytes) (→Hypo-allergenic: Added information regarding Indoor Biotechnologies testing and Siberian Research

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.219.107 (talk)

Personal experience regarding the hypoallergenic qualities of this cat --[edit]

Regardless of scientific studies to the contrary, something needs to be added here from someone who OWNS a Siberian cat!

I purchased my (male Siberian)kitty from a breeder in International Falls, Minnesota ten years ago. I would have adopted one from the local shelter, but have family members who are allergic and no one would want to visit our home if we had any ol' indoor cat. I have had several cat-allergic friends who only have to walk in the front door of a house to know there is a cat in residence, so I wanted a kitty who wasn't going to offend anyone. :-)

During the first few months that I had my cat, the breeder contacted me and said there was a woman in our area (San Francisco Bay Area) whose daughter was allergic, and they were wondering if they could come visit my home for awhile. My first inclination was to "vacuum for company", but I thought better of it and just left the cat hair where is was for a few days. On the appointed day, the woman and her daughter arrived, sat in my living room and made small talk for about 30 minutes, while my kitty wandered back and forth between us. Finally her daughter said, "I would never know there was a cat in this house." Like-wise, my daughter-in-law and grandsons have no reaction to Nikki.

Just to keep it real, my elderly mother was the only one who did have to take a Benedryl now and then during her three-week visits. She was asthmatic as a child and has always been violently allergic to cats. Truthfully, it might not have been a problem even with her if she had just left the cat alone. But she was so thrilled that she could actually have a cat in her lap without her chest tightening up that she was constantly petting Nikki and really overdid it. Nevertheless, she would ordinarily have been miserable after the first day in a "cat house", but the effects were minimal.

My five-year old grandson, whose family moved to California from Michigan this year, has asthma and is allergic to both dogs and cats. I would have felt terrible if my poor little buddy had a reaction to being in our house. But the first time they visited for three or four days, I hadn't even thought about it, because "nobody is allergic to Nikki" and I am not accustomed to worrying about it. After two days, my daughter finally said to me, "Well, I guess the proof is in the pudding..." She had brought all of Mason's asthma treatments with her, just in case, but it turned out - of course! - that she didn't need any of it. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.14.218 (talk) 04:28, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hope this is helpful to you. 76.212.4.129 (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)Pam Mortensen drmbt48@aol.com

Where did that picture go?[edit]

There totally used to be a picture of an award-winning Siberian on the top of this page. Where did it go? Shouldn't we be using the most recognized cat available for this? Otherwise, my Siberian cat is way cuter than anything here, including that cat (everyone tells me so -- reviews include such words as "magnificent", "distractingly beautiful", and "supermodel"). Anyway, to prevent an escalating cuteness edit war, I propose that the original, award-winning cat be restored to its position of pride at the top of the page. Novalis (talk) 03:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure which photo you're talking about. I've been watching this page for several years and I don't remember such a photo. Are you referring to File:CFA2008-Siberian.jpg? It's still in the article, just a little further down. It's a very small, blurry photo, so it's not a great lead photograph. I would be actually prone on removing it, but if there was some evidence that it is an award winning Siberian, that would be grounds to keep it until we can get a better photograph. — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:37, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually, upon further research, it is File:Qgcfillimor.jpg. It doesn't say it on the photo page, but older versions of the page (one) describe it as "Vaselyok Fillimor, a Quadruple Grand Champion in TICA". I assume that this was "original research", in the sense that the person who uploaded the photo also owns the award-winning cat. I can find no independent evidence that Vaselyok is in fact a champion of any sort, but I may just not be looking hard enough or in the right places. Novalis (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I propose replacing the lede image of this article with the following, which better depicts the subject. The proposed image is not my cat. I do not own any cats - it is a photo taken by a good friend of mine, who is a professional photographer. The image is high quality, high resolution, well focused and lit and depicts an example the breed's most common coat type and appearance. Please review and let me know if you have any objections. Thanks! -Brian

I thought I added a picture of my cat, and I went through all the steps to what seemed like the logical "submit changes" page, but it disappeared/never appeared. Any insight would be appreciated, thanks, Joe 5FEB16

"Molting" Citation????[edit]

The breed not shedding nor needing a regular brushing is a false breeder claim, I believe, with little basis in fact. Anyone have a citation?

http://makingyourdashcount.com/2010/04/11/the-truth-about-siberian-cats/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by BetseyK (talkcontribs) 01:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Siberian vs Siberian Forest Cat[edit]

The introduction claims that the "full" name of the Siberian is the Siberian Forest Cat, but that is not supported by any of the official references or standards, so it should be marked "dubious" pending further discussion or research. If the claim cannot be generally supported, it should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.24.189.252 (talk) 19:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

The breed is referred to as a "Siberian Forest Cat" in The Ultimate Guide to Cat Breeds by Louisa Somerville. I'll have to check my other books to see what they refer to it was there - this just happens to be the book I have open next to me right now. --TKK bark ! 18:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Expanding: It is also referred to interchangeably in "The Complete Cat Owner's Manual" by Susie Page as both a Siberian and a Siberian Forest Cat.--TKK bark ! 01:16, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
That's good enough to keep it in, with those sources, as an alternative name, but they're tertiary sources and where they're getting this idea from is unclear; one may well have gotten it from the other. In this case, primary sources (breed registries' published standards) are needed for us to say that the full name of the Siberian is the Siberian Forest Cat (vs. a longer name of the Siberian is the Siberian Forest Cat). Unless most or all of the registries that recognize the breed use the longer version, the "the full name" construction is a WP:NOR and WP:NPOV problem.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  08:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

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