Talk:Sicily

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Inclusive approach towards Sicilian Language[edit]

I've made several edits to the article to demonstrate Sicilian language terms for the island in the English language article. I apologise as I did indeed make a mistake in that my references cited the Sicilian language wikipedia rather than a third party source. I will cite the academic literature here in the future. This case is quite unusual though in that Wikimedia has actually be a huge asset to the Sicilian language community and in fact the Wikitionary is one of our best freely available dictionaries. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocabolario_siciliano is actually not readily available. That said, I do think we should pursue a more inclusive approach to the position of Sicilian language in this article. For example the demonyms for Catalonia are available in four languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia, I fail to see why we should not include the native language demonym?

I also provided the IPA pronunciation for Sicilia in Sicilian language, and that was removed, may we discuss why it's not relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.63.165.155 (talk) 22:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sicily in Sicilian is Sicìlia with that weird looking i, which you omit. I'm not an expert of IPA, but do we know if it's the same as the Italian pronunciation? As for the demonym, I wouldn't be opposed to putting the Sicilan ones too, but this is a wiki with other editors so we must see what they think. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 22:11, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I would personally consider the spelling Sicìlia with a grave accent to be an old Sicilian spelling, X is also common in that context (sixilia), referencing a more 'SH' sound. Your thoughts? If you feel it beneficial I will pull some stuff out of the literature later to make a more cohesive case. I should also clarify that I'm approaching this topic with training in phonetics and linguistics. Generally Sicilian language pronunciations of those letters are not the same as Italian, including vowel placement. There are IPA resources for Sicilian language that may be a valuable addition as a reference. Particularly the CI sound is generally different in Sicilian than in Italian. Please let me know your thoughts so that we can move towards a consensus. Thanks!159.63.165.155 (talk) 22:31, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Well they use Sicìlia on the Italian wiki so we should probably go with that. If you want to add some IPA or demonyms or anything, state them here first to see if there are any oppositions. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:33, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
It is okay for the name in Sicilian, but I oppose the use of Sicilian in demonyms, since we call the inhabitants of Sicilia only through the official language of the island and region. Also legally and culturally are named only with the Italian name. So, mentioning the language of the wikipedia taken into consideration plus the official one of the article's object is more than enough, also because the infobox is actually a synthesis of the Main features of the article.--93.36.1.157 (talk) 09:35, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
Firstly, it seems like most articles don't even have a demonyms sections, so it doesn't seem to matter if we put it in Sicilian as well. But I do want to clarify that Sicilian does have some status. Quote from the Sicilian language article: The language is officially recognized in the municipal statutes of Sicilian towns, such as Caltagirone[10] and Grammichele,[11] in which the "inalienable historical and cultural value of the Sicilian language" is proclaimed. Further, the Sicilian language is to be protected and promoted under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (ECRML). Italy has signed this treaty, but the Italian Parliament has not yet ratified it.[12]

Furthermore this may be a good time to address the other linguistic minorities in Sicily and include them in the page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh_language Article 6 of the Italian constitution protects linguistic minorities.[1] What ways can we include them so as to not bias this article towards Italian language?159.63.165.155 (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Follow-up, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol#Languages on the South Tirol page Ladino is also given full status even though it's only official in some comuni, similar to Sicilian/Arbereshe/Gallo-Italic.159.63.165.155 (talk) 09:07, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, Apulia, Lazio, Pachino, etc etc all have demonyms in the infobox so I think more articles have them than not. You seem to have viable sources for what you want to add, so I would say go for it. No one else has responded here otherwise. Just make sure it is in the most unbiased way as possible. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 12:14, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I disagre, because probably the anonymous user doesn't understand Italian that well or does not understand the legal lexicon of the Italian legislative system. Sicilian language is not recognised at regional and national level. The article 6 of Italian Constitution protects linguistic minorities? True, of course only the ones that Italy recognises. Sicilian is not recognised. The recognised ones are listed in the Law 15 December 1999, n. 42 http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/99482l.htm (Ladin, Arbereshe and Gallo-Italic are included for instance). Both Regione Siciliana and those Sicilian comuni you listed do not recognise Siclian, they just mention to protect and enhance the local language http://www.gurs.regione.sicilia.it/Gazzette/g05-28s/g05-28s-p1.htm http://www.gurs.regione.sicilia.it/Gazzette/g05-28s/g05-28s-p1.htm. That's a big difference. Of course, the sole official language of both local institutions is Italian, because in case Sicilian had enjoyed official status all the aforementioned documents would have been written also in Sicilian. This article already has in the infobox the denomyn in English (the language of this Wikipedia version) and Italian (the only official language of Sicily), exactly like Apulia, Lazio, Pachino that have been mentioned previously in this talk. Other local languages are mentioned in the rest of the article. The infobox shows only the most important features.--93.36.9.113 (talk) 14:16, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Dear Sir/Madaam, I am very very familiar with the laws in question, I think it may be more constructive if my difference in opinion wasn't treated dismissively as lack of understanding. I think you may have not carefully read my point, if you look back you'll see that I posted a link to Arberesh language and Gallo-Sicilian referencing the other linguistic minorities of Sicily. You specifically reference Arbereshe as well, does this mean you are open to its inclusion? I understand that Sicilian language faces serious conservation challenges in Italy and that Italy does not legally recognise it at the national level, I have never made such a point. Minority language rights are however recognised as human rights at the European and International level. There was an effort to have Sicilian taught in schools a few years back, but unfortunately the resources were not made available.[2]. Sicilian does not enjoy official status regionally or nationally, but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia needs to take a politicised position on inclusion. Many minorities languages don't have official status, but it may be discriminatory to not be inclusive towards them when we can do so fairly easily and in accordance with international views towards minority language rights.159.63.165.155 (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Dear Madam/Sir, I think there is a problem of communication between us. It is not a matter of being politicised (also because I am Sicilian and I speak a fluent Sicilian). Sicilian and other minorities are already discussed in the rest of the article. Since the introduction and the infobox give info about the main features of the article, there is no need to add languages that aren't official or only recognised at municipal level (e.g. Arbereshe and Gallo-Italic enjoy a limited co-official status only at municipal level and not at the regional one). This article is about Sicily as Island and Italian region. The local languages are widely discussed in the rest of the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily#Ethno-linguistic_minorities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily#Language and in other wikipedia pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language. The article about teaching Sicilian (that the low quality newspaper calls it dialect when actually it is a language) at school is very old, part of a project that failed not because "resources weren't made available" but 'cause the autonomist political party who promoted the project is today defunct and its members on trial for several alleged crimes or part of totally different political parties.Sabbinirica--93.36.9.136 (talk) 20:41, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for you reply. You're right. You are approaching this from the position of an Italian region, I respect and appreciate your reply. At least in my case I may have become accustomed to a very different conversation and may have made assumptions about your position that was not fair. You're right, that article is of low quality, and furthermore yes of course the scandal involving Raffaele Lombardo and the Movimento per le Autonomie was a massive contributor to the failure of the legislation. I do think you may appreciate the challenge that I'm attempting to address here, in that Sicilian is extremely culturally relevant, but enjoys very limited recognition as such. I'll reconsider this question and follow-up. Thank You159.63.165.155 (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Clarification requested on sentence in paragraph 3 of the introduction[edit]

Folks,

Would someone kindly clarify the following sentence?

. . . it was ruled unconquerable during the Early Middle Ages by the Vandals, . . .

It does not make obvious sense:

  • If it was unconquerable, then it wasn't ruled.
  • If it was ruled by various parties, then it wasn't unconquerable.

I suspect what the author is getting at is that the island was invaded by various groups -- and who claimed dominion over it for periods -- but no one ever really gained any real level of control of the rascally Sicilian population.

Grazie. 77th Trombone (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Edit Suggestions[edit]

Hello, I would like to say a few suggestions to improve this article. A good amount of sections are missing citations for historical information and facts about geography (ex. length of rivers table). Under the "Flora and fauna," although it describes the land as being heavily agricultural, the only flora object mentioned is a chestnut tree and it would be nice to add other species of plants to the list. It might be nice to update information that was posted years ago with a newer source (such as the current president of Sicily) to show the article is being reviewed constantly and is up to date. Along with that, information on the status of the bridge that was proposed to be built would benefit from updated information as well. Just a quick search showed the estimate price for the project went up and that another concern for building it was because of earthquakes.[3] Grisafi95 (talk) 04:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

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