Talk:Siege of Tripolitsa
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Info@kafalas.com (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)This is not helpful. I'm an American descendent of the brother of Gen. Kefalas (or Kephalas in the photo caption), and as you can imagine, in our family, he is a tremendous source of pride, being a hero of the Greek revolution, etc. Frankly, I never gave much thought to the idea that there might be another side to it until recently, when I decided it was time to read some of the primary sources from that period. Come to find out, he's not a hero, he's a butcher. Or, no, he's still a hero, because despite the excessive killings at Tripolitsa, the Turks killed a lot more people over the previous ~400 years. Or, how can you equate a few wartime excesses of violence with centuries of Turkish oppression and atrocities? Look: None of us was present at the event. At this point, all that matters is to identify what happened and why. According to Howe's rather dry discussion of the taking of Tripolitsa, a huge number of people were killed; he attributes a lot of it to rage over events of 1821 such as the execution of Gregory V and its aftermath, and a lot of it just to angry soldiers who wanted to steal anything of value from the city. Howe moves right along; In the context of the war, he feels, it was only one of many important military turning points, some of which involved mass killings of innocent (and guilty) people. At this point, making biased edits to the article, either to justify the killings, deny that they happened... or, on the other hand, to say they were unjustified acts of pointless slaughter, does not help readers who are trying to understand the events and their context in history. What would be more helpful would be to add references to more primary sources, so readers can read and decide for themselves.
User:Greek1232 15 ,August 2012 18:00 Hmm..I would say that the article is not close to the truth...i was not present at Tripolitsa but two of my ancestors were there and the stories i have heard are really different from arms and legs cutting...If the writer-composer of this article does not agree with the stories i know its ok..But he must know more about the historians he trust in order to tell somehting close to the historical truth(which nobody knows by the way)...But first let me tell you that general Theodoros Kolokotronis who was present at Tripoli i9n the siege and the "massacre" does not say in any spot of his memoirs about tortures and arms-legs cutting...I keep telling that because it seems silly a thing like that to vbe written cause this is a way the Turks used to execute many of Greeks in the past as well as the Romans did..Never heard however something like that in the modern Greek history...By the way Thomas Slavos was executed this way and some others too...To continue you refer to things said or written by6 foreign generals present...Where exactly did you read that foreign generals where to a secondary Ottoman city in the event of the siege by the Greeks in 1821??You may have read that in the historians you refer to in the comments...Just know that we cannot ,as writers ,compose articles and demand from the others to respect them when they lean on three writers or more for whom the two live almost one century away frtom what they describe and not give attention to the things written from both sides , even if things are written only by Greeks about that.. Finally its absolutely in human nature to commit thing like some of the ones described with the specific backstage of this epoc...If some invaders kill your mother, you father, your childer your wife,rape your mother yopur wife ecven your children, if yopu are not allowed to educate your children and not freely believe in any religion you want,if your kids are kidnapped and converted to sworn enemies of you and all these toprtures happen for 4 centuries then yes....its in human nature to commit massacres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greek1232 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC) ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Kekrops the aim of this article is to talk about the massacre not about the siege of the city as it is opened in relation with the massacres that occured following the outbreak of the greek revolt..Stop changing its name then..I dont go and say Siege of Chıos, right? And by any respect sıege was not an important success as there wasnt any significant ottoman military within the city they were mostly mere civilians..--laertes d 14:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Let me explain it again,
- article is opened as a part of the massacres that occurred following the outbreak of greek revolt..It was opened in relaton with the massacres..
- Siege of tripoli is an insignificant act in history but not the massacres that occured after the surrender..
- i am not changing the chios massacre article to "siege of chios"..
Clear enough? --laertes d 23:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no source for your proposed title, whereas "Fall of Tripolitsa" is the most common term in Greek historiography. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Kekrops, first do not change the content, for instance do not erase the sentences that i completed about the massacres even though you dont agree with the title..
- W. Alison Phillips, William St. Clair, George Finlay all these historians who wrote the history of the greek revolution uses the term "tripoli massacre" in their writings..
- what matters here is not what is most common in Greek histiography, which doesnt even mention about the occurence of the massacre, but what is historically important about that event, which is the massacre of up to 30.000 people..--laertes d 03:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually that is incorrect that Greek historiography does not mention the massacre-- I have been the Tripoli museum which has a plaque about the massacres of civilians there. What is historically significant about the Fall of Tripoli is not that civilians were killed (this had no bearing on the outcome of the war) but that the last and most important Turkish stronghold was in Greek hands.
Siege of Tripolitsa
Should this article be called Siege of Tripolitsa is instead of the Fall of Tripolitsa and include the battles anf the siege? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyriakos (talk • contribs) 10:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Peculiar Excerpt of Painting
The excerpt of the primary painting designed to draw the reader's attention to a detail of this painting appears like sheer editorializing, and adds no new or compelling information, or, to my taste, emphasis to the article so far. Indeed, it is condescending, presuming, as it does, that the reader did not already notice the destruction thus summarized in the text. A guide in a museum might do that to a busload of overwhelmed tourists, but the point is evident upon arrival to the article page. Slapping on visual chartjunk does little to encourage the thoughtful reader to understand and appreciate the primary sources quoted in that section, and explain to him/herself what actually happened. I should propose to delete it. Cuzkatzimhut (talk) 20:20, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
- Couldn't agree more. It is pure tendentious editing. I removed it several times, but the user who added it edit-warred to put it back (incidentally he has now been reported at WP:AN3). Athenean (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Massacres by Ibrahim
I've added the 1828 massacre perpertrated by Ibrahim, based on: Arnakis, George G. (1969). The Ottoman Empire and the Balkan States to 1900. Vol. 1, The Near East in Modern Times. The Pemberton Press,. p. 163. "Several towns, of which Tripolitsa was the most important, were destroyed by Ibrahim's forces, and the people were massacred or sold as slaves.". In case a couple of 1821 era memoirs didn't mention this specific event this can't mean that it didn't happen. As far as I know Arnakis is a well established academic.Alexikoua (talk) 09:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Arnakis is a well established historian, of which you interpret an elusive sentence in a book not focussing on the war of independance, and whose purpose is not to give a precise description of the event in early 1825. Other RS focussing on the history of the war (Douglas Dakin, David Brewer etc) with text dealing precisely to the events of 1825 say that Tripolitsa was evacuated before it as taken by Ibrahim and that the Greek burned it in order to deprive the Egyptians from a shelter in central Peloponnese. It is not relevant in Arnakis to make a detailed description of what happened where, because in the whole no one disagrees with the fact that during the war Ibrahim destroyed several towns and enslaved or massacred many inhabitants of the Peloponnese ; but this sentence is a generalization, a sum-up of the events, it is not intended to describe precisely what happened in Tripolitsa in June 1825.--Phso2 (talk) 09:41, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Supposed massacre of Albanians in Tripolitsa
I can only assume that the recent edits were part of typical national-pov editting. The fate of the Muslim Albanian garrison is well described in the article and it's well sourced: The city was taken before the 2,500 Albanian had departed, but still they had a safe passage out of the Peloponnese a few days after the fall. On the other hand the inlines provided here [] claim nothing about Albanians massacred in Tripolitsa and the editor in question is welcomed to provide an explanation about this.Alexikoua (talk) 17:02, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
There is also an account by Leake, which confirms Kolokotronis' successful negotiations to save the Muslim Albanian garisson (Turco-Albanians in contemporary sources):
"The Albanian inhabitants of Tripolis — Leake says one fifth of the population of Greece was Albanian — were escorted by Kolokotronis's men to the other side of the Gulf of Corinth where, once free, they committed atrocities.
I still wonder how the following text can mean that Albanians were also among the victims in Tripolis:
On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1-9, 41-46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis.
Actually the text doesn't claim anything about the Albanian defenders of Tripolitsa, who in fact were the only Muslims saved during the fall of the city. In general When an author states "all over Peloponesse" this doesn't necesarry mean Tripolitsa too. I can only assume that Resnari just initiated a new national & poorly cited agenda in this case.Alexikoua (talk) 17:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Heraclides, Alexis (2011). The essence of the Greek-Turkish rivalry: national narrative and identity. Academic Paper. The London School of Economics and Political Science. p. 15.
"On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1-9, 41-46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis."
Andromedas, John N. (1976). "Maniot folk culture and the ethnic mosaic in the southeast Peloponnese”. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 268. (1): 200. "In 1821, then, the ethnic mosaic of the southeastern Peloponnese (the ancient Laconia and Cynouria) consisted of Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them. In 1821, with a general Greek uprising impending, rumors of a “Russo-Frankish” naval bombardment caused the “Turkish” population of the southeastern Peloponnese to seek refuge in the fortresses of Monevasia, Mystra, and Tripolitza. Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza. The origin of this rumor was the firing of a salute by a sea captain named Frangias in honor of a Maniat leader known as “the Russian Knight.” Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight the whole of the southeastern Peloponnese was cleared of “Turks” of whatever linguistic affiliation. This situation was sealed by the ultimate success of the Greek War for Independence. The Christian Albanians, identifying with their Orthodox coreligionists and with the new nationstate, gradually gave up the Albanian language, in some instances deliberately deciding not to pass it on to their children."
First off, not sure why you deleted the Arvanites participation in siege and events following sentence from the article. Heraclides states that bit outright and should stay. Secondly Andromedas points to Muslim Albanians from Vardhounia heading to and seeking refuge in Tripolitza in sizable numbers. Those people after all did not go anywhere unless you have a source for that and where there for the final onslaught. The Muslims of Tripolitza are idenfitied as having Muslim Albanians at that point in time. I will remove the word Turks as Heraclidies just mentions those communities massacred everywhere as opposed to Tripolitsa outright. Some more clarification is needed then about Albanian Muslim refugees fleeing to Tripolitsa then. When the city fell Muslim Albanians where present. Also the primary source below citing Kolokotronis memoirs states:
"Inside the town they had begun to massacre. ... I rushed to the palace ... "If you wish to hurt these Albanians,"
Kolokotronis, a witness to the events refers to those people as Albanians. I doubt that was in reference the Arvanites, unless there was some kind of loos in translation.Resnjari (talk) 17:46, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- I wonder if you ever read the quotes you added: Both of them do not say a word about Albanian defenders being massacred in Tripolitsa. It's also weird that according to your rationale Kolokotronis claims that this so-called massacred inluded Albanians too, in fact he succeeded to save them according to his memoirs. In general you do nothing more than flooding the talkpage with quotes that do not support your point. To sum up you still need to prove that this happenned (and refute Kolokotroni who claims the contrary), instead of wp:ORing.Alexikoua (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Those massacred where not just defenders, but civilians. Before i even made additions that was outlined. Like i said all where included in that massacre. Andromedas states outright that Albanian Muslims from Vardounia fled to Tripolitsa. That is cited. I stand by that source and made changes according to that. The other stuff i was referring was already in the article which serves as corroboration since its been discussed. Kolokotronis in his memoirs in that passage does not distinguish from defenders or civilians. All were massacred. None of the sources do, so far used in the article. If you have good sources distinguishing that, use them. Go for it and put them with inline citation like i have done. I am all for it. As for "you do nothing more than flooding the talkpage", again your opinion. This is the talk page designed for discussion of issues like this. I am discussing and showing specific points relating to the matter. Wikipedia states that discussion can be had about a matter if it relates to the topic.Resnjari (talk) 18:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- "All were included in the massacre?" I feel you are into deep wp:OR right now. Actually you proved nothing about the fate of the Albanian mercenaries of the city, just speculations that they possibly have been massacred, nothing more the personall obsession to push a national pov. Let me help you about Kolokotronis memoirs about your fictional massacre:["I+was+faithful+to+my+word+of+honour.+I+took+Koliopoulos+from+the+Albanians,+and+gave+them+Giannaki+"&source=bl&ots=uAZYiwwCFx&sig=qhqcqFFvjUrm7qlH825TMIIKAJ8&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAGoVChMI-ovjmZ3UyAIVhbQUCh0jYAq8#v=onepage&q=%22I%20was%20faithful%20to%20my%20word%20of%20honour.%20I%20took%20Koliopoulos%20from%20the%20Albanians%2C%20and%20gave%20them%20Giannaki%20%22&f=false]
I rushed to the place. The affair of the Albanians had been settled in my tent three days previously. Upon reaching the fort I found that the Greeks were endeavouring to attack those Albanians. "If you wish to hurt these Albanians," I cried, "kill me rather; for whilst I am a living man, whoever first makes the attempt, him will I kill the first." I then went in front of them with my body-guard, and had a conversation with the two leaders, Veli Bey and Limas Bey, and demanded two
hostages on their side, when I gave up their property to them, which amounted to as much as thirteen animals could be laden with. The chief men among all the Greeks had joined in this treaty. I was faithful to my word of honour. I took Koliopoulos from the Albanians, and gave them Giannaki Kolokotrones, Chrystakes, and Basil Alonisthiotes as hostages in his stead.
I ordered Koliopoulos, with three hundred men, to escort them, and he accompanied them to Kalavryta and Vostitsa, and then returned.
It seems that the Albanians you claimed as massacred have been savely accompanied out of the battlefield. I can only hope you stop whith this continuous national pov by claiming that non-existent events were history.Alexikoua (talk) 18:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- That's the defenders. The civilians ? Andromedas points to Muslim Albanian civilians from Vardounia ? Do you have information regarding their fate. Heraclides and Andromedas point to the violent destruction of the Muslim civilian population consisting of Turks and Albanians. What of the civilians ? Do you have a source saying they left as well ?Resnjari (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- That's the Albanians that were in Tripolis the time just before the siege sucessfully ended. By the way, when an author claims that Albanians were inside a besieged town [] this does not necessary mean that they were massacred after/during the fall of the settlement.Alexikoua (talk) 19:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Andromedas refered to the Muslim Albanian population of Vardounia, or some number of them seeking refugee in Tripolitsa and not leaving. I am going through Kolokotronis now and he says that just the defenders are the ones left. Non-combant Muslims remained. What of the Muslim Albanaians from Vardounia. The article before i made additions does not say that anyone from the civilians where spared. If you have a source to the contrary put it up, so there is clarification. Both Andromedas and Heraclides follow on in their sentences that it was both Albanians and Turk Muslim civilians(non-combatants) that were killed throughout these massacres. Also Albanians where lumped as Turk. Andromedas does that tongue in cheek when he refers to the Muslim population as "Turkish" in parenthesis to illustrate that point.Resnjari (talk) 19:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Andromedas states that Albanians were inside the besieged town during the siege, but not that they died during/after the siege. Heraclides states about attrocities all over the Peloponesse without mention of Tripolis in this case. There is no claim that links the events of this siege to massacre of Albanians. Apart from Kolokotronis, there is also a British account that confirms the non-massacre: W.H. Humphrey's First journal of the Greek War of Independence:[], based on eyewitness Thomas Gordon:
Towards the end of April 1821 an Albanian chief, Elmaz Bey, had been sent to the Morea to reinforce Tripolitsa with 1,700 men. They left the city during the assault and were allowed to establish their quarters in the camp previously occupied by Kolokotronis. From there they took off for Vostitsa, escorted by 500 Greeks, and then returned to Albania.
- Elmaz bey, had troops with him. Where those troops from Vardounia? Unless they were, Andromedas does not refer to soldiers. He refers to civilians. What of the Muslim Albanian civilians from Vardounia ? He places them fleeing to Tripolitsa and being there during the siege. What happened to the civilians thereafter as no source presented so far says that there were Muslim civilian survivors. The sources presented so far by you just say that troops where allowed to leave. Did that deal cover Muslim Albanian civilians? Heraclides especially states that " All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821". He places Muslim Albanian civilians as being victims within the violent events that followed.Resnjari (talk) 20:04, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- I specifically addressed the issue about the Albanians in general and refuted your arguments about the massacre in Tripolis. Once again you continue wp:ORING by taking into account events that occurred "all over the Peloponnesee". On the other hand I'm quite precise that this ethnic group left safely the action.Alexikoua (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- No you did not. The sources refered to combatants. Andromedas refers to civilians. Big difference. What happened to the civilians ?Andromedas also makes the point to lump Albanians with Turks when he has "Turkish" in parenthesis. What happens to the civilians from Vardounia ?Resnjari (talk) 20:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
As scholarship does not cover the fate of the Muslim Albanian population, i will adjust for the time being and remove Albanians. Turks stay. I will also add in a sentance however that Albanian Muslims from Vardounia came to seek refuge in Tripoltisa.
- Andromedas doesn't mention the Siege of Tripolis to say it with simple words. I'm afraid you can understand that there is an issue about quality of your arguments. The precise part of Andromedas:
Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza. The origin of this rumor was the firing of a salute by a sea captain named Frangias in honor of a Maniat leader known as “the Russian Knight.” Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight the whole of the southeastern Peloponnese was cleared of “Turks” of whatever linguistic affiliation.
I can't see somewhere Andromedas specifically claiming something about the victims of the Siege of Tripolis. By the way, how you claim that the barduniotes were non-combatants?Alexikoua (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I fixed it. They fled there and where present during the siege. Still on a personal note, curious as to what happened to the Albanian Muslim Vardounotes population ? Resnjari (talk) 21:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- There is a brief account by T. Gordon about their fate specifically: "The Bardouniotes surrendered themselves en masse to the Mainatts, and hundreds of famished wretches, wandering in search of the vilest aliments, and braving every danger with desperate apathy, and were allowed to herd behind the camp." [].Alexikoua (talk) 21:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting. I was just looking before and there is no article on the region of Vardounia itself. What is the proper name of the region in Greek if times permits for writing one up as a starter for the rest to fill in. I keep seeing Bardounia and Vardounia in various Greek sources and in some both ! In Albanian they call it Bardhunj, well that's the form that Fatos Rrapaj recorded from some of their descendants that were amongst the Cham refugees strictly from the coastal villages of Arpica (now: Perdhika) and Arila (Arilas) in Thesprotia. He recalled narratives that some settled there after fleeing the Peloponnese. In songs he recorded from those villages (the refugee population from there, they are the only songs that talk about Bubulima, Ali Farmaqi, Kolokotronis etc. I have also seen conflicting information that they where either local Arvanites who went Muslim or some Muslim Albanians brought later or even a mixture of both populations.Resnjari (talk) 21:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- As Gordon clearly stays the Turkobardioniotes surrendered and were allowed to stay out of action. It can't be more clear that they were saved from the events of the fall of the city. In the scope of this article there was no massacre of an Albanian community thanks to Kolokotronis initiative.
- If you have a good source, add a sentence. Better having it water tight than not. I am going to add the bit from Gordon about the Bardouniot Muslim population.Resnjari (talk) 06:25, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- I would note though that Gordon does say that some of the civilian population that came out before Tripolitza's capture where massacred. He put that passage right after the bit about combatant Albanians leaving. While he still refers to the Turkish garrison as remaining. The matter of the ethnic identity of the Muslim population that got massacred is still open to some question and it cannot be discounted that apart from those killed being Turks that some Albanians would have been caught up in the killing. Anyway for now,the article states its Turks.
- p.252. On the 7th, the Albanians, whose presence and menacing countenance began to cause disquietude, received orders from Petro Bey to depart instantly. They marched to the number of 1500, and, being furnished with provisions on the road, and escorted by 500 Greeks, traversed the Morea, and crossed over from Vostizza into Roumelia. On the same day, a sanguinary band, not yet glutted with blood, vented their fury on the families that had come out of Tripolizza before its capture; near 2000 persons, mostly women and children, were massacred in a defile of Mount Manalion. The flower of the Turkish garrison, shut up in the citadel, without food or water, surrendered on the 8th, with the single condition of their lives being spared. Colocotroni took possession of it, and is said to have found there considerable treasure.Resnjari (talk)
- No wonder you are still speculating and that is defined as wp:OR and wp:SYNTH. Dreaming & edit-warring about fictional massacres can harm your future in this community.Alexikoua (talk) 08:44, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- Now i am going to say to you what i have said to another editor. One refrain from language that can be interpreted as not being in going faith. Words like "dreaming" are not constructive" on the matter. Regarding "harm" veiled intimidation about pursing edits have been made to me by certain editors and here i am. If there is something to be said, say it, if you think something needs to go to arbitration, take it there and i will make my case accordingly. I have held my own so far and will do so well into the future unlike many other Albanian editors. As for Albanians from Bardounia being non-combatants, there is nothing to suggest that they were not though. Andromeos leaves it ambiguous sadly. Unless you have come across something that does day they were combatants, then that's different. Until then neither one nor the the other is ascertained.
- I was checking for available data about the 1770 massacre, which still needs some clarification in the background section. One academic work , offers some piece of info, however it doesn't clarify the ethnic boackground of the perpetrators:
Για την κατάπνιξη της επανάστασης κατήλθαν στίφη Αλβανών, τα οποία κατέλυσαν το κράτος του οθωμανικού νόμου και επέδειξαν απερίγραπτη θηριωδία. Τις ατυχείς πολεμικές επιχειρήσεις διαδέχονταν πράξεις ωμότητας και εκδίκησης εκ μέρους των μουσουλμάνων, ως συνέβη στην Τριπολιτσά, όπου τη Μ Δευτέρα 29 Μαρτίου/9 Απριλίου 1770 εσφάγησαν περίπου 2000 κάτοικοι. Μεταξύ των θυμάτων ήταν και ο μητροπολίτης Άνθιμος (Βίρβογλης) οποίος ανασκολοπίστηκε μπροστά στο σεράηι με διαταγή του μουσελίμη. Την ίδια τύχη είχε και ο ανηψιός του προεστός Γ. Βίρβογλης, ενώ τ' αδέλφια του τελευταίου Αλέξανδρος, Στέφανος και Νικόλαος απαγχονήστικαν στην αγορά της πόλης. Οι οικίες των εκτελεσθέντων στην Τριπολιτσά εκάησαν και οι περιουσίες τους δημεύτηκαν. Θύμα των Αλβανών υπήρξε το 1779 ο προεστός του Αγίου Πέτρου Ανάγν. Κοντός , παππούς του ομόνυμου απομνημονευτή της επανάστασης του 1821
Although Albanian mercenaries were the ones that created chaos and anarchy in Tripolitsa, the author uses the general term "Muslims" to define the perpetrators of the massacre of 2,000 inhabitants. Thus, it would be not appropriate to claim that Turks or Albanians were the perpetrators, a reader can easily assume that they propably committed these attroticies, but if the reference states something was done by Muslims any change is OR. Thus, you are kindly advised to avoid OR too, especially about this kind of topic.Alexikoua (talk) 09:54, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- If the background is not clarified then the sentence can only state something like the umbrella term "Ottoman forces" without mentioning ethnicity which is what they were in the end. Regarding this last bit you mention, i have made no edits to the 1770 massacre. The author uses the umbrella term term "Muslims" because in Greek sources Muslims are not often distinguished by ethnicity, all are "Turks". As for the sources i brought, within them they already claim that Albanians were in Tripolitsa seeking refugee. What happened to various segments of the population is the question. Those that where defenders of Tripolitsa left. Gordon says something similar about the Vardouniots on page 243:
- "The Bardouniotes surrendered themselves en masse to the Mainatts; and hundreds of famished wretches, wandering in search of the vilest ailments, and braving every danger with desperate apathy, passed the lines of the besiegers, and were allowed to herd behind the camp. The Greek soldiers saw with indignation the conduct of their generals, and rightly conjecturing that it would defraud them of the best part of the booty, only awaited the departure of the Albanians to make an attempt upon the place, with or without their officers’ consent."
- As Gordon is a primary source however, you are right in removing a small addition i made about the Vardouniots being vouched for. Question is where there any Albanian leftovers. No peer reviewed source so far can fully rule that out yet. It would have to be done through a secondary source. But regarding my edits in general, the ones i made have overall stuck. The article now has information that Avranites where at the siege and massacre, Vardouniots sought refuge there and that the people who where massacred where ethnic Turks. I have done all i can. Whoever now comes across more sources regarding the massacre, even say in Turkish or giving further information about the time of massacre can add. The dialogue undertaken here, gives enormous assistance to future editors who may come across absences that they wish to add if sources are available to them. I am content and I have done my part. As for the other comments you made, I can edit any article and all those policies which you have cited go for you too. I have come across articles where you have been in breach or overstretched at times. Bear that in mind before telling others that they cannot edit.Resnjari (talk) 00:52, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- Guess you are out of arguments and you switch into trolling. (I have come across articles where you have been in breach or overstretched at times.). If you have something decent about this article you are free to participate, but edit-warring about fictional massacres reveals an aggresive nature.Alexikoua (talk) 13:14, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- Your opinion. I see that your resorting to accusations once again. Words such as "aggresive nature" and "trolling" indicate this. That's ok and thank you. Like i said my edits have stuck and there are examples of what i have said regarding yourself and if the time come will name name in the appropriate settings if need be. If there are any issues of which you think need to be addressed at arbitration please initiate proceedings. Otherwise its just your opinion and commentary once agian.Resnjari (talk) 13:22, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- (on topic) I've checked additional bibliography on the issue. This one [] offers valuable descriptions about the city and Ottoman Peloponnes in general. In p. 359 the author mentions something about the fate of the non-combatant population of Vardounia, that fled to Tripolitsa. (Tel fut aussi le sort de plusieurs individus, surtout de femmes et d'enfants, originaires des contrées de Mystra et de Vardounia, qui au début de la guerre s'étaient réfugiés à Tripolitsa. Après la prise de la ville, ils furent emmenés à nouveau dans la contrée où ils avaient vu le jour, mais pas forcément dans les mêmes villages. Selon toute vraisemblance, plusieurs néophytes, surtout des femmes, se sont déplacés en raison de leur mariage.) My French isn't good, but doesn't appear as a massacre to me.Alexikoua (talk) 13:50, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- That's good. Add it then. Since you came across it, come up with a sentence and put it into the article. Like i have said make this very water tight. Also add a sentence on the 1780s massacre as you came across stuff regarding context. In general to all editors out there though and as i have said in the past i am not doing all the work. Whoever comes across a piece of information that one thinks is in need of addition, they do the bulk of the work with input (if need be from other editors). But its good, as Gordon wont do regarding where i made the edits about Varduniots due to him being a primary source. So in the end the massacre was just of a Muslim Turkish speaking population. PS: In Greek is the region known as Vardounia or Bardounia ? I have seen multiple versions of the regional place name in Greek sources and its confusing as to which is which.Resnjari (talk) 14:09, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to get someone to do me a small favour and do a translation of the Vardouniots thing as for me that edit is important before i make the addition at the end of the week. Regarding the 1770 one, i will leave it to you.Resnjari (talk) 01:10, 27 October 2015 (UTC)