Talk:Sippenhaft

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Several issues[edit]

I'll be editing this article based on the responses or lack thereof.

  • I'd like a source that East Germany practised any type of kin liability beyond interrogation of associates.
It was well known practive to blackmail family members of Rebublikflüchtlinge into service for the Stasi. Usual threats were loss of job, flat, place at university, etc. There was of course no legal liability, backed by some law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.13.72.195 (talk) 03:32, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
"It was well known ..." is not a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.114.179 (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd like to add North Korea, probably the only country that actively pursues this policy today as a part of their legal system.
  • I'd like to remove the red guards for they were an internal, autonomous radical revolutionary group in China. That is they represented a threat to power to the CPC, not a part of their power structure.
  • (A suggestion) Is the fact that you can be detained for family debt a type that fits here? It's practised in many muslim and even some western countries in certain conditions.
  • Most improtantly: I'd like the (search)term to be changed to "Kin Liability". Nazi Germany was neither first nor last to practise this. Or I'd like all references to any other country moved to Collective Punishment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.59.34.174 (talk) 04:40, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I've added and sourced the info on the North Korean "3 generations of punishment" system. It's far more prominent than the other sippenhaft systems. --ConCass (talk) 10:59, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
In German, the term is used in two quite distinct meanings: One is the illegal, inhuman Nazi-/communist-style collective punishment (which probably ought to be moved there), the other the (ancient) legal principle of (financial) liability for parents and other next-of-kin. When the latter is refered to as "Sippenhaft", that´s usually deprecatory, meaning to move it into the direction of the former. --129.13.72.197 (talk) 13:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong translation[edit]

Sippenhaft(ung) can in no way be translated to "blood guilt", which would be Blutschuld in German.

Also, the connotations native Germans would get for Blutschuld are unrelated to the (il)legal practice of Sippenhaft described in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.46.131 (talk) 13:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


Only a "democratic" practice[edit]

Hi!

Sippenhaft was NOT legal during the Third Reich. The killing of relatives was a random practice and effected under martial law because the family of resistance members were seen as a threat.

On the opposite some elements of medieval Sippenhaft, as a part of German penal practice (the legal term, however, is "analogous penalty" or "penal analogy"), were re-introduced only as late as during the mid-seventies. The bizarre thing about this is that there is practically no possibility as a parent to defend oneself against a charge based on the crime committed by your teenage child.

The teenage child is technically not the defendant and therefore not allowed to say that the charge is wrong, neither are the parents able to defend themselves against a charge that was actually directed against someone else.

Where did you find this utter bullshit?

Best regards

Someone who knows

'Someone who knows' is quite right. The Wikipedia article fails to make clear that, although the family members of officially disliked or criminal persons in the Third Reich were arrested, they were not executed, as the article erroneously implies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.12.3 (talk) 17:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

No, they were not officially sentenced to death and executed, as there was no law to even actually allow their arrests. But quite a few of them got shot by some SS idiot who didn´t have the balls to just let them go when retracting from the enemy forces.

Sippenhaft is currently practiced by Israel[edit]

Sippenhaft is currently practiced by Israel, but only against Palestinians (not against Jews) in the Occupied Territories (demolishes homes of families who have a suicide bomber in their ranks - even if the rest of the family are moderates and are horified by the bombing). Sort of ironic, isn't it?, that Israel is following a practice of the SS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.119.134 (talk) 13:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The CNN article cited in support of this does not mention, at all, punishment of families. It talks about knocking down buildings. If you want to relate that to sippenhaft, which is the arrest/detention/execution of family members, then that requires a considerable degree of synthesis to support it, which is against the original research policy. Orpheus (talk) 04:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
It is cited using 3 different sources. Don't revert me again.
Sennen goroshi (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The three sources all suffer from the same problem - none of them talk about arrest, detention or execution of family members. Sippenhaft had nothing whatsoever to do with housing, and it's original research to include that in this article. Orpheus (talk) 01:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It is original research on your part to assume that sippenhaft is limited to detention/execution. It is a collective punishment.Sennen goroshi (talk) 02:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
No, it's not original research. The article does not mention any form of collective punishment apart from arrest and, in some cases, execution. If you want to add a claim that's not already supported by references in the article, you need sources that link your claim to the subject of the article. Orpheus (talk) 03:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
some sources
http://www.gregfelton.com/middle/2004_05_13.htm http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/072808Avnery.shtml
To punish whole families for the acts of their children, much like the Nazi "sippenhaft." To expel the families from the city or to cancel their resident status. To demolish their homes. To take away their social insurance benefits, even if they have paid for them.
Yaffe responded by saying, in part: “In fact, the homes of suicide bombers are demolished as a measure to discourage other Palestinians from similarly blowing themselves up.”
I don’t suppose she’s ever heard of Sippenhaft—a term that describes the collective punishment the Nazis meted out to those suspected of working against the regime or harming its officials.
Sennen goroshi (talk) 15:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for coming up with some sources. Unfortunately they still don't back up the inclusion of Israel in this article. The first link, to gregfelton.com, doesn't even come close to being a reliable source. In particular, see WP:SPS on self-published sources and their reliability. The second link only mentions sippenhaft once, in the context of "a lot of proposals were presented". Proposals - not policy and not action. It also doesn't say what "punish" means, and this article deals exclusively with arrest, detention and sometimes execution of family members. If "punishment" goes outside that scope then the text doesn't belong in this article, it belongs in the parent (collective punishment). Orpheus (talk) 11:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I had a couple of concerns about the first source, however isn't it just a reproduction of a story found in a newspaper? that is what the credits just under the title seem to imply. I would like to find something more specific about sippenhaft though, something explaining exactly what it involved, at the moment I see no difference between it and collective punishment. Sennen goroshi (talk) 11:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That's stretching the definition of newspaper a fair bit. It was written by Greg Felton, who is apparently a regular contributer to the opinion page of the Alberta Arab News. Opinion page articles: (from WP:V) Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact,
This article (i.e., the Wikipedia article on Sippenhaft) should probably confine itself to the historical practice that occurred between 1933 and 1945. Anything else is really just talking about other kinds of collective punishment. The entire last paragraph of the article could probably be moved to CP to keep this one narrowly focused. I've made some test edits to the lead to make the subset-superset relationship a bit more clear - see if you agree or not. Orpheus (talk) 12:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I thought it was just reintroducted in WW2 and was in use in Germany a long time before WW2. My opinion is that you are right, the examples I used belong in collective punishment unless a reliable source directly compares them - and yes, the current source might not be reliable. However I was under the impression that the article should refer to the German practice of sippenhaft - which has a long history. not just WW2 Sennen goroshi (talk) 12:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that would be a great addition to the article, if we can find some references about it. I can only find (with, admittedly, a pretty brief search) incidental one-word mentions of anything before the '40s. Orpheus (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have reviewed the discussion regarding Sippenhaft and Israel, and unless somebody can come up with some convincing arguments, I am re-including Israel in the Sippenhaft page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.159.186 (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Before you do that, you'll need some reliable sources showing that Israel practices what is described in this article. Please have a look at the core verifiability policy. Orpheus (talk) 11:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

part 2[edit]

It's sourced. And it's well known that Israel demolishes the family homes of terrorists, so if there aren't enough sources at present, quite a few more can be found. Whitewashing well known Israeli policy really isn't a good idea. As luck would have it, Wikipedia has a well sourced article on the subject: House demolition in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict Rklawton (talk) 23:35, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

@Monochrome Monitor: I see two methods Israel is using, touching the legal item of Sippenhaft. Both are mentioned in the article and sourced. In your comment you argue Demolishing the house of a terrorist punishes all of its occupants, yes, but that's not the idea of sippenhaft. Sippenhaft is actually punishing the relatives directly, not casting a wide net. The Israeli government argues that destroying the home of a suicide bomber aims at his/her family. Not the terrorist or home or unrelated people living in it. "Until now, the Israeli government had argues that demolitions deter attacks as bombers do not want to leave their families homeless." Source [1] It's exactly what Sippenhaft is about and how it was used during the nazi period in Germany. I don't like the compartment but lack other examples. The first method mentioned in the article also aims directly at family members. --Rabenkind (talk) 12:40, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree with house demolitions and it is collective punishment. But it's not sippenhaft in the sense of punishing blood relatives for the crime of one. They don't bomb the houses of the relatives, just the house of the terrorist. Comparing israel to nazi germany is called antisemitism. I'm not saying they don't demolish houses, I'm saying it's not sippenhaft, and that's what you would need a reliable source for. In fact, this article probably should only talk about the term in germanic law, with links to related practices. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:26, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
You don't seem to read my quotes. Again: "Until now, the Israeli government had argues that demolitions deter attacks as bombers do not want to leave their families homeless." Source [2] What is left unclear about the intention of demolition of houses? A government hopes, that a [insert a political catchy term] does not do what he/she intents to do since he/she fears for what the government would do to his/her family members. And, no, Sippenhaft is not an event once occurred in Germany. It's a juridical principal.--Rabenkind (talk) 16:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

The german article is actually much better in this respect. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Happy you found a way to understand German text. Now try to understand the German source [3]. --Rabenkind (talk) 16:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
The article is mistaken. Sippenhaft (guilt by association) is the principle that relatives share responsibility for a crime committed by one member. That is not found in Israeli law. The house demotions do punish all the inhabitants of the house, but not because the other inhabitants are considered to be guilty in any way. They are punished as a detterant, it's collective punishment, not Sippenhaft. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:18, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
That might be your point of view but is nothing but primary research until proven by reliable sources. And the sources I added seem to say the contrary. --Rabenkind (talk) 18:25, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
Do the sources you added provide a different definition of sippenhaft? --Monochrome_Monitor 09:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Other examples punish relatives because they are believed to be guilty, not in rare situations as a detterant. Ie, liability among relatives in the qin dynasty was enshrined in law, and many punishments of varying severity were carried out to its effect. In Israel it's completely different, where a form of collective punishment affecting family members is used in one circumstance against individuals who usually aren't even subjects under Israeli law, thus it is not a legal principle but rather a military one.--Monochrome_Monitor 17:27, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
MM I noticed the AN/I discussion, and went there to help out in case you were being got at and needed some advice. I see Simon has done that, so I won't intrude there. I've now looked into this. By coincidence, I happened to read some days ago a remark by Uri Avnery on precisely this connection, before I noted the dispute. I think the other editor is correct, as was User:Sennen goroshi in 2008.
Apart from summary executions on the spot (justified or unjustified, these methods include the demolition of the family's home, to deter others, as well as the arrest of parents and other family members. Frankly, I detest these measures. They remind me of a Nazi term I remember from my youth: "Sippenhaft" ("kin liability”). It is barbaric.'(Uri Avnery, 'A Lady With A Smile,' Gush Shalom 13 February 2016)
Avnery is a particularly good witness to what any German with a sense of historical depth extending beyond the latest twitter controversies thinks. His family had to flee Germany when the Nazis took over, and took sanctuary in Palestine. German articles in the mainstream press have long mentioned the connection. In any case, the source already cited does not say that it is a military as opposed to a legal procedure. It says explicitly that the Israeli court has given the green light to Sippenhaftung ( Israels Gerichtshof erlaubt Sippenhaft FAZ (2002)). Of course Israel is not thinking of using Nazi precedent. The sippenhaft practices are based on British Emergency Laws (No.119) going back to 1945. Where the other analogy comes in is the way this is used against Palestinian, but not against Jewish, terrorists, meaning collective punishment of a family through home demolitions is ethnic-specific. Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Sippenhaft is currently practiced by North Korea[edit]

But not mentioned in the article as of now. It is also a concept found in the Bible, e.g. Ex 20,5; Ex 24,6-7 and Dan 6,25. --Neitram (talk) 20:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I've added the info about the Korean system in, and sourced it. It's more prominent than the Communist systems, I don't know how anyone missed it. --ConCass (talk) 10:53, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
I haven't time to do this, but editors should consider looking up Iran as a state using sippenhaft punishments. They executed the entire male population of a village recently (villages are usually kith-and-kin groups, all intermarrying).Nishidani (talk) 13:53, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
This should mention more about Japan and China too, I'll add it when it gets unprotected. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:21, 27 February 2016 (UTC)