Talk:Sippenhaft

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Several issues[edit]

I'll be editing this article based on the responses or lack thereof.

  • I'd like a source that East Germany practised any type of kin liability beyond interrogation of associates.
It was well known practive to blackmail family members of Rebublikflüchtlinge into service for the Stasi. Usual threats were loss of job, flat, place at university, etc. There was of course no legal liability, backed by some law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.13.72.195 (talk) 03:32, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
"It was well known ..." is not a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.114.179 (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd like to add North Korea, probably the only country that actively pursues this policy today as a part of their legal system.
  • I'd like to remove the red guards for they were an internal, autonomous radical revolutionary group in China. That is they represented a threat to power to the CPC, not a part of their power structure.
  • (A suggestion) Is the fact that you can be detained for family debt a type that fits here? It's practised in many muslim and even some western countries in certain conditions.
  • Most improtantly: I'd like the (search)term to be changed to "Kin Liability". Nazi Germany was neither first nor last to practise this. Or I'd like all references to any other country moved to Collective Punishment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.59.34.174 (talk) 04:40, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I've added and sourced the info on the North Korean "3 generations of punishment" system. It's far more prominent than the other sippenhaft systems. --ConCass (talk) 10:59, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
In German, the term is used in two quite distinct meanings: One is the illegal, inhuman Nazi-/communist-style collective punishment (which probably ought to be moved there), the other the (ancient) legal principle of (financial) liability for parents and other next-of-kin. When the latter is refered to as "Sippenhaft", that´s usually deprecatory, meaning to move it into the direction of the former. --129.13.72.197 (talk) 13:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong translation[edit]

Sippenhaft(ung) can in no way be translated to "blood guilt", which would be Blutschuld in German.

Also, the connotations native Germans would get for Blutschuld are unrelated to the (il)legal practice of Sippenhaft described in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.46.131 (talk) 13:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


Only a "democratic" practice[edit]

Hi!

Sippenhaft was NOT legal during the Third Reich. The killing of relatives was a random practice and effected under martial law because the family of resistance members were seen as a threat.

On the opposite some elements of medieval Sippenhaft, as a part of German penal practice (the legal term, however, is "analogous penalty" or "penal analogy"), were re-introduced only as late as during the mid-seventies. The bizarre thing about this is that there is practically no possibility as a parent to defend oneself against a charge based on the crime committed by your teenage child.

The teenage child is technically not the defendant and therefore not allowed to say that the charge is wrong, neither are the parents able to defend themselves against a charge that was actually directed against someone else.

Where did you find this utter bullshit?

Best regards

Someone who knows

'Someone who knows' is quite right. The Wikipedia article fails to make clear that, although the family members of officially disliked or criminal persons in the Third Reich were arrested, they were not executed, as the article erroneously implies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.12.3 (talk) 17:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

No, they were not officially sentenced to death and executed, as there was no law to even actually allow their arrests. But quite a few of them got shot by some SS idiot who didn´t have the balls to just let them go when retracting from the enemy forces.

Sippenhaft is currently practiced by Israel[edit]

Sippenhaft is currently practiced by Israel, but only against Palestinians (not against Jews) in the Occupied Territories (demolishes homes of families who have a suicide bomber in their ranks - even if the rest of the family are moderates and are horified by the bombing). Sort of ironic, isn't it?, that Israel is following a practice of the SS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.119.134 (talk) 13:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The CNN article cited in support of this does not mention, at all, punishment of families. It talks about knocking down buildings. If you want to relate that to sippenhaft, which is the arrest/detention/execution of family members, then that requires a considerable degree of synthesis to support it, which is against the original research policy. Orpheus (talk) 04:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
It is cited using 3 different sources. Don't revert me again.
Sennen goroshi (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The three sources all suffer from the same problem - none of them talk about arrest, detention or execution of family members. Sippenhaft had nothing whatsoever to do with housing, and it's original research to include that in this article. Orpheus (talk) 01:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It is original research on your part to assume that sippenhaft is limited to detention/execution. It is a collective punishment.Sennen goroshi (talk) 02:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
No, it's not original research. The article does not mention any form of collective punishment apart from arrest and, in some cases, execution. If you want to add a claim that's not already supported by references in the article, you need sources that link your claim to the subject of the article. Orpheus (talk) 03:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
some sources
http://www.gregfelton.com/middle/2004_05_13.htm http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/072808Avnery.shtml
To punish whole families for the acts of their children, much like the Nazi "sippenhaft." To expel the families from the city or to cancel their resident status. To demolish their homes. To take away their social insurance benefits, even if they have paid for them.
Yaffe responded by saying, in part: “In fact, the homes of suicide bombers are demolished as a measure to discourage other Palestinians from similarly blowing themselves up.”
I don’t suppose she’s ever heard of Sippenhaft—a term that describes the collective punishment the Nazis meted out to those suspected of working against the regime or harming its officials.
Sennen goroshi (talk) 15:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for coming up with some sources. Unfortunately they still don't back up the inclusion of Israel in this article. The first link, to gregfelton.com, doesn't even come close to being a reliable source. In particular, see WP:SPS on self-published sources and their reliability. The second link only mentions sippenhaft once, in the context of "a lot of proposals were presented". Proposals - not policy and not action. It also doesn't say what "punish" means, and this article deals exclusively with arrest, detention and sometimes execution of family members. If "punishment" goes outside that scope then the text doesn't belong in this article, it belongs in the parent (collective punishment). Orpheus (talk) 11:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I had a couple of concerns about the first source, however isn't it just a reproduction of a story found in a newspaper? that is what the credits just under the title seem to imply. I would like to find something more specific about sippenhaft though, something explaining exactly what it involved, at the moment I see no difference between it and collective punishment. Sennen goroshi (talk) 11:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That's stretching the definition of newspaper a fair bit. It was written by Greg Felton, who is apparently a regular contributer to the opinion page of the Alberta Arab News. Opinion page articles: (from WP:V) Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact,
This article (i.e., the Wikipedia article on Sippenhaft) should probably confine itself to the historical practice that occurred between 1933 and 1945. Anything else is really just talking about other kinds of collective punishment. The entire last paragraph of the article could probably be moved to CP to keep this one narrowly focused. I've made some test edits to the lead to make the subset-superset relationship a bit more clear - see if you agree or not. Orpheus (talk) 12:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I thought it was just reintroducted in WW2 and was in use in Germany a long time before WW2. My opinion is that you are right, the examples I used belong in collective punishment unless a reliable source directly compares them - and yes, the current source might not be reliable. However I was under the impression that the article should refer to the German practice of sippenhaft - which has a long history. not just WW2 Sennen goroshi (talk) 12:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that would be a great addition to the article, if we can find some references about it. I can only find (with, admittedly, a pretty brief search) incidental one-word mentions of anything before the '40s. Orpheus (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have reviewed the discussion regarding Sippenhaft and Israel, and unless somebody can come up with some convincing arguments, I am re-including Israel in the Sippenhaft page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.159.186 (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Before you do that, you'll need some reliable sources showing that Israel practices what is described in this article. Please have a look at the core verifiability policy. Orpheus (talk) 11:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sippenhaft is currently practiced by North Korea[edit]

But not mentioned in the article as of now. It is also a concept found in the Bible, e.g. Ex 20,5; Ex 24,6-7 and Dan 6,25. --Neitram (talk) 20:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I've added the info about the Korean system in, and sourced it. It's more prominent than the Communist systems, I don't know how anyone missed it. --ConCass (talk) 10:53, 17 April 2014 (UTC)