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Requested move 11 August 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. This has already been relisted twice, and I do not foresee consensus becoming clearer after another relist. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

SmilesSmiles (disambiguation) – The disambiguation page is a collection of comparatively obscure partial title matches, and topics with no Wikipedia article. I propose that the primary topic of "Smiles" is Smile, for which "Smiles" is both the plural and the third-person singular simple present indicative verb form. bd2412 T 18:53, 11 August 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. DrStrauss talk 13:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. DrStrauss talk 11:47, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Support, main topic for smiles is smiles. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:09, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I've no disagreement in principle with the rename. However WP is not a dictionary and favouring a grammatical form over specific titles (eg Sam Smiles) wouldn't be right. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:14, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Can you provide evidence that "Sam Smiles" is commonly known as just "Smiles"? bd2412 T 22:42, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
      • Well it's his name. As you would image for a notable author "Smiles' Lives of the Engineers" or "Smiles' Self Help" are reasonably common phrases. To quote from the Rolt edition of Lives: "... the defects of Smiles' writing ..." (foreword, para 2, sentence 1). HTH, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:53, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
        • In those cases, the name is not used outside of contextual cues - either the full name has been referenced previously in the work, or the name is used in connection with a publication connected to the name. bd2412 T 00:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
As BD2412 says. @Martin of Sheffield: those examples are not valid. Smiles is not used as mononym like Stalin or Mozart. As to "not a dictionary" if that's the case why do we have an article for smile in the first place. If you can provide another example on en.wp where plural doesn't redirect to singular be interested to see it. Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 12:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
If dismissing usage of one the the major authors of industrial history, please justify "not valid". I suspect Rolt has a published and cited opus greater than any of the contributers here. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
The point is that Rolt refers to Samuel Smiles as "Smiles" alone only after he has been introduced to the reader as "Samuel Smiles". This work, taken as a whole, is therefore not proof that "Smiles" is a mononym. bd2412 T 00:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Mozart and Stalin are poor examples. Stalin is frequently referred to as Josef (or Joseph) Stalin. W A Mozart is needed in program notes and similar to distinguish him from the composer and violinist Leopold, who happened to be WA's father. In the present case you are also on shaky ground. The entire first paragraph of Rolt's Introduction runs: "Although this book forms the third and last part of the Lives of the Engineers it was, in its original form as a biography of George Stephenson, the first to be written. Smiles later expanded and re-wrote it to include the work of his son, Robert Stephenson." Over the next three pages Rolt continues to name Smiles as just "Smiles" 11 times. Never once does he use Smiles' forename. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:56, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Points taken. However, "Mozart" and "Stalin" seen alone almost always reference to the person. Not so with smiles - even if Rolt overlooked the facial expression. bd2412 T 23:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
AjaxSmack I think you're misunderstanding NotDict as a guideline, as demonstrated by plurals invariably redirecting to singular articles. And someone searching "smiles" would be looking for smiles. What else would they be looking for? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:26, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
But would someone searching for "Smiles" be looking for "smile"? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
@In ictu oculi: plurals invariably redirecting to singular articlesWP:PLURALPT: The relationship between a singular and its plural is important, but not the only consideration. Because readers and editors are used to seeing titles at the singular form, and can be expected to search for them/link to them in the singular form, the intentional use of a plural form by a reader or editor can be evidence that a separate primary topic exists at the plural form. [...] Just as with any other title, a plural base title can direct to an article (Snickers), or to a dab page (Suns) No such user (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
And can we not see the difference between SNICKERS® and "teeth" "lips" "smiles" "eyes" "looks" "winks" "whistles" and every other word which isn't a famous brand name? What is SMILES®? Look on the dab page; zero. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:08, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Ajax. I did not see any misplaced links, so the current setup appears to work fine. Usage of words as words has little bearing on encyclopedic usage. Dohn joe (talk) 01:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
    • @Dohn joe: Of course you don't see any misplaced links, the disambiguators have fixed them all! bd2412 T 15:05, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:22, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Support, per primary. This nom made me smile(s). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:53, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:PLURALPT as I quoted above, and Not "what first comes to (your) mind". The current setup is just fine. No such user (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I can't see a single WP:PTM on the page. In my experience, the author of Self-Help is often called simply "Smiles". The reason that there are no bad incoming links ATM (and I've just checked) is because either (1) editors have reacted to a nastygram from User:DPL bot, or (2) WP:DPL members have found and fixed them. If the move is made, bad links will be created and will never be found and fixed. (As a worse example, Esplanade threatens my will to live – any incoming link from a place in India almost certainly means Esplanade, Kolkata.) Narky Blert (talk) 19:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment, the lead of Smile, "A smile is a facial expression formed primarily by flexing the muscles at the sides of the mouth.[1] Some smiles include a contraction of the muscles at the corner of the eyes, an action known as a 'Duchenne smile'. Smiles performed without the eye contraction can be perceived as 'weird'.", includes two mentions of 'smile' and two of 'smiles'. Plus one of the very encyclopedic descriptor "weird". To some editors redirecting 'Smiles' to 'Smile' makes common sense, and, after looking at the other entries at the disambiguation page, perceive it not being the primary as, in academic terms, "weird". Randy Kryn (talk) 21:41, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.