Talk:Sobibór extermination camp

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Chain of Command subtitles[edit]

Under Sobibór extermination camp#Chain of Command, the first five sub-titles are of the form "job, Germans and Austrians" (e.g. "Commandant, Germans and Austrians"). This is ambiguous, and could mean a list of three things, or that the job was done by Germans and Austrians (which is what I suspect is meant). I'd like to change the format to "job (Germans and Austrians)". Comments, objections? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 07:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

For some reason, the trial of John Demjanjuk has been repeated twice here. Valleyspring (talk) 05:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Libodenko Wartownick? I doubt the surname is real - Wartownik is a Polish word meaning "sentry" or "guard", "watchman". Treating this word as a surname sounds odd.

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Sobibor extermination campSobibór extermination camp – Is the name of this camp Sobibor or Sobibór? Shouldn't we try to be uniform about it? --Relisted. EdJohnston (talk) 01:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC) Hoops gza (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Support Comment (see below). The current name comes from the German Vernichtungslager Sobibor, but the actual placename was and still is Sobibór; that's how we find it on a map of Poland. Auschwitz is an exception, because it was a complex of camps spanning dozens of nearby locations, as oppose to Chełmno extermination camp for example (note the Polish spelling, in German it was called Kulmhof). Poeticbent talk 20:48, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
We can also go the other way around and keep the German spelling of all camps in Poland: i.e. Auschwitz, Sobibor, Belzec (not Bełżec), but then it would only make sense to rename the camps in other languages as well, for example the Sajmište concentration camp on the outskirts of Belgrade, renamed to Semlin concentration camp from the German Judenlager Semlin (officially), etc. Poeticbent talk 21:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment The second sentence in this article's lead states that "the official German name was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibór" (unsourced).Hoops gza (talk) 21:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment The move request isn't really a request. Once the correct title has been established, then this should be moved, if applicable. Both the German and Polish article are spelt Sobibor not Sobibór.Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 12:43, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
In the German Wiki we have "Vernichtungslager Belzec" and in the Polish Wiki "death camp (obóz zagłady) in Bełżec" so they are not spelt consistently there. Poeticbent talk 13:29, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Other languages have no direct bearing on the article name. The only relevant question is how the name is most commonly spelled in English. While Google Ngrams aren't always perfect, the evidence here says that it isn't even close [1]. Moving would be an error. (talk) 15:42, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, the results are quite compelling: about 49,100 results for "Sobibor", and about 2,840 results for "Sobibór". Perhaps we should run a similar test on all of the above names, what do you think? Poeticbent talk 18:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
No, since the Google Book Search OCR doesn't recognize diacritical marks, that approach in not useful. If you click through to the book hits for Sobibor, you find one with accent out of the first few. There are a few in the ngram with accents, because not all data comes via OCR. Dicklyon (talk) 02:23, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Per Dicklyon, and also Poeticbent I don't understand your search above. Surely we need to search in English books which can/do have full fonts for Polish names, like Wikipedia can and does, and then see if they drop the u (I assume everyone realises that ó indicates a u-sound in Polish not an accented o), only then can we claim that reliable sources are giving the camp a special "English" name. But as it stands a look through Google Books shows that full-font English books are all spelling the camp as it is pronounced in Polish. e.g. Heberer Children During the Holocaust Page 172, Niewyk The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust Page 208 and so on. Not a single reliable-for-spelling source seems to be spelling the camp differently from the village. So why should we? In ictu oculi (talk) 22:36, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Re: search from above. Please click on the link.[2] You will see the two lines; at the end of the first one is "sobibor" (hotlinked), and at the end of the second line is "sobibór". Open them in separate tabs if you want. The trick is that the "sobibór" link (with diacritic) displays the results in Google transliterated as "sobib%C3%B3r" so no other results could show up. Poeticbent talk 04:51, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
User:Poeticbent, how does this relate to my comment? So some English books are equipped with full fonts and some aren't. So what exactly? Wikipedia is equipped with full fonts and uses them. I repeat the question, why should we deliberately misspell (or underspell) a Polish place name? In ictu oculi (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
In the opening line you said you don't understand that search, which btw wasn't mine. I explained its unique nature, that's all. But we also have a WP: Common name policy/guideline here which says (quote): "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources..." that's why I remain undecided. Poeticbent talk 00:35, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand the policy; we're not calling it Sobibór in anyway because it's an "official name", but because it's wikipedia's policies & guidelines to use diacritics in such cases. walk victor falk talk 00:54, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Exactly as Victor says. The guideline Poeticbent you are citing specifically gives a French president with a cedilla as an example that common name does not relate to fonts/MOS issues. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:46, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
OK, I hear you. I changed my vote back to support, but we need to deal with Bełżec as well, if this is going to fly. Poeticbent talk 12:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Let's forestall that. I have restored that to 2009-2012 title per WP:AT Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles and WP:COMMONNAME in English sources such as Dan Stone. You're correct that there's no reason why it should be different. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support per In ictu oculi. Wikipedia articles commonly include diacritics in such cases, pergeographical naming conventions. walk victor falk talk 07:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - If this page is renamed, then its category tree should be nominated for speedy renaming, which is perfectly fine. But what about the navbox for this camp? Is there a bot that can change the text on each page on which the navbox appears?Hoops gza (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semion Rozenfeld[edit]

Semion Rozenfeld was one of the Russian-Jewish soldiers who escaped. He rejoined the Russian army and took Berlin, defeating Germany and ending that countries involvement in World War II. Will someone please add him to this article?

-Teetotaler 21 May, 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Article Update[edit]

I have updated the article with new information about the location of the gas chambers. But clearly this article should be arranged with perhaps a separate "Archaeological" section. See this article to get a better idea of the rather extensive work that is presently taking place. Also, evidence is suggesting that more than 250,000 were killed there - the finding of the gas chamber could clarify this further. Furthermore, this article could describe the "road to heaven" better, especially in light of this new evidence that has been found. Nodekeeper (talk) 12:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

For more a more detailed Archaeological (earlier ca. 2008) survey before the last link, This has quite detailed information. (Scroll Down) The place where they found the chambers is not far from where the large 60's era monument was erected. In this picture ca. 2007 it would be in the small (paved) clearing to the left of the larger field. What the paper/article mentions is that the green shading of grass belies the location mass graves outside of the central circular mound. I invite other editors to keep watch for a more recent similar overhead picture esp. one that could be used in the article. Nodekeeper (talk) 13:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Commanders and Chain of command[edit]

The 2 sections on commanders (previously "Aftermath") and "Chain of command" should be merged somehow. Not sure how though :) Peteruetz (talk) 18:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Ngram Viewer[edit]

Ngram Search in Google Books reveals that between 1940 and 2008 the use of placename Sobibor in English literature (without the Polish diacritic) which peaked in 1986 has declined considerably in the last decade. In the same timeframe the use of Sobibór (with the diacritic) remained low by comparison nevertheless. There's no comparative data of anykind after 2008 in Ngram Viewer.[3]

Blatt as source of over 40 citations[edit]

Much emphasis is put in this article on the first-person account of Thomas Toivi Blatt born in 1927. Blatt was chopping off women's hair at the Camp II Vorlager at the age of 15, and escaped during the uprising of October 1943, whilst supposedly possessing intricate knowledge of the Alexander Pechersky's thoughts and ideas. After the Soviet takeover of Poland, Blatt was wearing the uniform of a functionary either of the dreaded Urząd Bezpieczeństwa (NKVD-UB) or the political propaganda division of the communist army – as the collar-patch in his portrait featured at Blatt's biography indicates. It is a known fact that both formations engaged in extrajudicial killings of the cursed soldiers. However, there's nothing in his biography about this decade.

Blatt left Poland immediately after the anti-Stalinist Polish October of 1956–57. Over twenty years later he flew from Los Angeles to Rostov and met Pechersky in person. Pechersky was in his seventies in 1980 and spoke Russian. They didn't use translators during their interviews; and no tapes of the Pechersky's recollections were made on a tape-recorder either. Nevertheless, their meeting in the Soviet Union resulted in two nonfiction books: The Forgotten Revolt and From The Ashes of Sobibor (with French, German, and Polish translations), along with feature film Escape From Sobibor of 1987 with landslide revenues. The problems with our article trying to state things about Sobibor as facts in Wikipedia's editorial voice go even deeper. The presence of the Soviet POWs at Sobibor drew considerable interest from the Soviet NKVD after World War Two, and greatly impacted on the western court proceedings. Pechersky was prevented by the Soviet government from testifying in multiple international trials related to Sobibor and repeatedly refused the permission to exit the country. Due to his absence at the trials, no independent testimony from Pechersky exists. All information was filtered by the Soviet political apparatus.

For all intents, Thomas Blatt is a primary source, not a secondary one. There are over 40 citations from Blatt featured in this article, originating from Sobibor - The Forgotten Revolt. Among the more recommended and readily available third-party sources there is also Sobibor: A History of a Nazi Death Camp by Jules Schelvis released in 2014, and the Escape from Sobibor: Revised and Updated Edition by Richard Rashke from 2012. Rashke interviewed 18 Sobibor survivors, including Blatt, and structured his book around those recolections. In his Introduction Rashke wrote: "there were some contradictions because survivors either embellished details over the years, and then accepted the exaggerations as facts, or confused rumors with reality." Poeticbent talk 19:27, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Concur with the sentiment expressed. The citations should be attributed to Blatt, and where available secondary sources would be preferred. If you'd be willing to review and update, that would be great. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:39, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

POWs in the lead[edit]

Come on, people, the article talks about the Soviet prisoners of war in the uprising section. - (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The article as it is now, indicating that this was an extermination camp for Jews (and that some of those Jews were Soviet POWs), is fine. What I objected to was the previous attempt to deceptively present this as a camp for Jews AND Soviet POws. Compare and contrast : "Jews from Poland, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union (including Soviet POWs)" [current], vs. "Jews from Poland, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union, as well as Soviet POWs," [previous deception]. Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 13:25, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Not quite, No Cal or whoever. You have a couple of hundred edits, quite a few specializing in reverting my work, and turned up here where you have never edited to revert a quite uncontroversial adjustment I made. You even reverted out a second edit I made to meet possible objections, and now state that you think what you cancelled is 'fine'. In now underwriting the reformulation I made, you are tacitly admitting you were reverting at sight because of the handle of the editor who did it, not on the merits of the edit itself. Duly noted.Nishidani (talk) 17:54, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Your original edit was deceptive, and I rightly reverted it. Your second one is acceptable, and I originally reverted it only because I was misled by your edit summary which stated "Undid revision 734928417 by Firkin Flying Fox (talk) That some of the Soviet Jews were Red Army POWs is a common knowledge" , when you in fact did not revert me, but changed your original misleading edit. Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 20:47, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
And, this tactic of trying to silence people who disagree with you by alleging they are sock-puppets of the evil No Cal or whatever is getting old. It was checked twice already, so give it a rest. Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Digging yourself a deeper hole. If you have so few edits, and consistently pop up on pages just after I edit them again, to revert, that's one signal, loud and clear, that there's something odd going on. One doesn't revert on the basis of an edit summary - you should revert after you examine the merits of the content edited. I'm not trying to silence you. I've made no complaint. I know more or less you are a throwaway account by a banned user, probably No Cal, but I don't really care. It doesn't worry me. I generally don't allow what I quietly note to disturb my editing. Nishidani (talk) 21:19, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Still trying to deflect attention from your deceptive editing, I see. Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Nishidani"Comment on content, not on the contributor." (WP:TPYES). Bus stop (talk) 23:49, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Sure, so give me your informed view of the merits of the content FFF tried to cancel.Nishidani (talk) 06:25, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

faulty & "dangerous" external links[edit]

code 404 (does not exist):

blocked by firefox & panda anti-virus pro:

The problems identified have now been fixed. Uglemat (talk) 17:20, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Apologies for the rollback, now corrected. The difference in the .NET and .ORG TLDs slipped by me. Thanks for thinking to check up on the difference!

Cadar (talk) 20:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

No worries! :) Uglemat (talk) 20:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)