Talk:Somerset Levels

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Featured article Somerset Levels is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Featured topic star Somerset Levels is part of the Physical geography of Somerset series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

Human habitation[edit]

The Bronze Age should precede the Iron Age, though I know nothing of the local archaeology in the Levels. --10:36, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wetman (talkcontribs) 10:36, 19 January 2005‎ (UTC)

Willow[edit]

Shouldn't it be pollarding rather than coppicing that is 'cutting back to the main stem'? Backdooruk 16:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think coppicing is correct and the description perhaps unclear? 80.42.11.240 23:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, however though no longer harvested, most willows on the levels are currently pollarded. Backdooruk 22:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Clyst???[edit]

In the sea defences a "clyst" is mentioned. What is a clyst? --Cheesy Mike 16:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it must be a local term for a dam or sluice gate but I can't find any sources for it.— Rod talk 16:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I now have a copy of Williams, Robin (1992). The Somerset Levels. Bradford on Avon: Ex Libris Press. ISBN 0948578386.  Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) from the library & it talks about "clyses" (the local name for a sluice) (p72) therefore I will change this (& reference).— Rod talk 10:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Clyses is the pural, the singular is Clyse. Williams, Michael (1970). The Draining of the Somerset Levels. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. The local definition for a tidal sluice. It also appears in Devon, e.g. Clyse Honiton, Clyse Hydon, Clyse St George, Clyse St Lawrence & Clyse St Mary. Pyrotec 17:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I was just browsing maps and found Stoke Clyce, ST 457 487 on the Axe. I can't tell from the map if there is a structure here, but it too far inland to be tidal. This spelling does seem to provide online references to sluices, so this would seem to be an alternative spelling.--Derek Andrews 22:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Found it on the map. Its not tidal now, but in the 12th century the River Axe was navigable to Glastonbury - there are records. Williams (1970) mentions drainage of the Axe valley, 1770-1810, and there are footnotes about Enclosure Acts mentioning sluices, cuts and rhynes. I suspect your clyce is defined in the Enclosure Acts for Stoke and Draycott Moors.Pyrotec 22:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Area of proposed inland seas[edit]

In a House of Commons debate on the Somerset levels it talks about "Two inland seas projects have been considered, involving low-level water-holding catchment areas, one covering 4,000 sq m, at the cost of £23,000, and the other covering some 75,000 sq m." (Column 298WH) - does anyone think this is miles or meters?— Rod talk 16:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Square miles seems huge, but at the same time in square metres the area looks tiny. There is some interesting context in this document - look at the stuff on "managed realignment". It gives much more information on the option to return part of the levels to the sea. --Cheesy Mike 17:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

(this is not yet a GA review) It would be realy good to have a map here to show the different rivers, places etc mentioned in the article. GB 08:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the knowledge skills or software to do this, but I have made a request to User:SFC9394 who has kindly made a variety of maps for wikipedia articles I've been involved with which show the topography of he area. These include Image:Mendip Hills Map.png which already covers some of the Levels area - so I'm hopeful that this may be possible.— Rod talk 09:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Article on hold[edit]

I have placed the GA nomination of this article on hold. The quality of the article is good, but the lead paragragh seems poor, whilst many many facts in the article seem to go unreferenced (even though in parts of the article the referencing seems ok), there is no referencing on the size of the area. etc. Francisco Tevez 10:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments - I have reworded the lead & added references for various parts of the article including the area, Alfred the great & willow. Any further advice appreciated.— Rod talk 14:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

No problems now. I will mark the nominee as a pass. Francisco Tevez 15:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Rivers and Drains[edit]

The following rivers and drains: Oldbridge River, River Banwell, Lox Yeo, River Sheppey, Decoy Rhine, Whitelake, Pillrow Cut, North Drain, South Drain, Black Ditch, Eighteen Foot Rhine, Horsey Pill, Lopen Brook, Chinnock Water, Sedgemoor Old Rhine, Sowey River, Hamp Brook, Cobb's Cross Stream, North Moor Main Drain, Cannington Brook, River Yeo (Ivel), Bearley Brook, River Cam, Somerset are all redlinks on List of rivers of England. Perhaps they could be incorporated into this article as they may not be notable enough on their own.— Rod talk 07:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well a good portion of these are manmade. There is already a section on drainage - Somerset Levels#Drainage - if we are going to add all these, perhaps we should spilt drainage out into its own article and link it in back in using: . Pyrotec 08:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I've also added them to List of locations in the Somerset Levels when I tidied that list up.— Rod talk 19:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What else is needed to get this article to FA[edit]

This article has now been a fairly stable Good Article for over two years and I am looking for ideas about what would be needed to get it to meet the Wikipedia:Featured article criteria? This is one part of the Featured topic about Physical geography of Somerset. The rules about FT's have changed and we need to get one of the GAs included in the topic up to FA status or the whole FT will be demoted to a Good topic. Any ideas appreciated.— Rod talk 21:02, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Pre-FAC questions[edit]

Rodw asked me to take a look at this article with an eye on a future FAC, so I'll post my thoughts here on each section as I go through it. Malleus Fatuorum 15:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Lead
  • "It is thought that because of winter flooding humans in prehistory restricted their use of the levels to the summer ...". Sentences like that one always prompt the question "thought by whom?" Archaeologists?
    • Reworded - it is one of several explanations for the name of the county - more detail at Somerset#Toponomy
  • "The Neolithic people continued to exploit the reedswamps for their natural resources ...". we haven't been told that anyone had begun to exploit the reedswamps, much less continue exploiting them.
    • Reworded
  • "The Levels were also the location of the Glastonbury Lake Village as well as two at Meare." I can't quite make sense of this. Why "also"? Two what at Meare? What has Meare to do with the Levels anyway?
    • "Also" removed. Meare is another of the villages on the levels (which had other lake villages - but not so well known)
  • "In the Roman period the extraction of sea salt continued ...". We were never told that it had started.
    • Reworded
  • "The most recent major projects being the artificial Huntspill river which was constructed in the Second World War as a reservoir, though acting also as a drainage channel." Leaving aside that dreadful "being", shouldn't "river" be capitalised? More importantly though the Huntspill is one project, but the sentence starts off appearing to be about to list more than one ("major projects").
    • River capitalised. The Sowy River is also a post war "project"
  • "The discovery at Shapwick of 9,238 silver Roman coins, known as the Shapwick Hoard was the second largest ever found from the Roman Empire. A number of Saxon charters document the incorporation of areas of moor in estates, with several towns, villages and hill forts being built on the natural "islands" of slightly raised land, including Brent Knoll, Glastonbury. In 1685 the Battle of Sedgemoor was fought in the Bussex area of Westonzoyland at the conclusion of the Monmouth Rebellion." This extract demonstrates what I think is a general weakness in several parts of the article, the lack of any coherent thread linking a sequence of sentences together. Fact 1, fact 2, fact 3 ...".
    • Thanks for your edits & comments. I'm trying to learn to develop cohereht threads, although I focus on fact 1, fact2 etc - I will try to work on this - but any help from others appreciated.
  • Still on the lead, "The discovery at Shapwick of 9,238 silver Roman coins, known as the Shapwick Hoard was the second largest ever found from the Roman Empire." Shouldn't that be something like "in the Roman Empire", or "from the time of the Roman Empire"?
    • Changed
  • "One of the explanations for the county's name ...". What county? This an article about the Levels. Malleus Fatuorum 23:48, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
    • I've put Somerset again, although this is in the first sentance.
  • "... the plans were abandoned in June 2010". It's not clear what plans we're talking about here. The plan to have the area designated a World Herirage Site or to recreate the wetland fens?
  • Both. As the WHS designation would have entailed allowing large areas to return to fen state (and loose farmland + have major implications for transport etc infrastructure).
Settlement
  • "... with either end protected by a semi-circular stockade and ditch". Does that mean "each end"?
  • Yep - changed
  • "Bawdrip, which has a population of 498, Brent Knoll is a village at the foot of a hill (correctly referred to as the Knoll at Brent) with a height of 137 metres (450 ft) dominating the low surrounding landscape of the Somerset Levels." I can't make sense of that.
  • Reworded - trying to avoid it being too listy, but mentioning all significant villages
  • "Larger centres are generally on slightly higher ground around the edges." The edges of what? Rivers don't have edges.
  • Edges of the levels - reworded.
  • "The northern edge of the Levels approaches the southern slopes of the Mendip Hills with settlements such as Compton Bishop, Axbridge, Cheddar, Rodney Stoke, Westbury-sub-Mendip and Wookey travelling towards Wells." I'm not quite following this. Are these settlements in the Levels? "With" is hardly ever a good linking word in any event. What on Earth does "Wookey travelling towards Wells" mean?
  • These villages & towns (controversial in the case of Cheddar & Axbridge) are on the lower slopes (? escarpment) of the Mendip Hills at the northern "edge" of the levels (remembering that water levels & river courses have changed over the centuries). Travelling towards = I've listed them from West to East.— Rod talk 10:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Human habitation
  • "In the Roman period the extraction of sea salt continued". We were never told that it had started.
    • Changed
  • "The Levels were the location of the Glastonbury Lake Village as well as two at Meare." Are they not still?
  • I suppose they are still the location, but the lake villages no longer exist - not sure how to word that.— Rod talk 08:45, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Biodiversity and conservation
  • "In 2010 a project was started to reintroduce the Common Crane ...". "... including Bewick’s swan, Eurasian curlew, common redshank, skylark, common snipe, common teal, wigeon and whimbrel ...". I understand that the capitalisation of common names for species is a bit of a hodge-podge right now, with no clear guidance, but it's surely hard to justify capitalising "Common Crane" and not "common snipe". Or capitalising neither.
    • I've started on this, but have asked for help from an expert in this area.
  • "The area is an important feeding ground for birds ...". Is it really likely, do you think, that anyone reading this article wouldn't know what a bird is? I have a general impression that there's a lot of overlinking in the article.
  • Sorry I couldn't resist this (even if its non-PC), to distinguish it from a "picnic area for persons of the female gender" (Sedgemoorbirds rather than Liverbirds). Yes, its over linked. As MF begins to feel more comfortable with the prose, I'll help with sorting out unresolved questions/problems. Pyrotec (talk) 23:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
  • This is quite a big article, so please feel free to help out with the prose yourself Pyrotec. Malleus Fatuorum 23:49, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
  • I've removed a couple of unnecessary links but further help appreciated.— Rod talk 09:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Shapwick Project
  • It's not immediately obvious what this has to do with the Levels; presumably Shapwick is a village in the Levels? Are there any others? Why aren't any centres of inhabitation discussed in the Geography section?
  • I've added a link to Shapwick, Somerset and a major new section on settlements into the geography section.— Rod talk 20:10, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Somerset Levels Project
  • "In 1964 John Coles began a research project ...". Need to explain who John Coles is. "Archaeologist John Coles"?
  • Done
  • "Possibly the projects's most significant excavations were of the Sweet Track in 1970, and of a Jadeite axe in 1973." You don't excavate an axe.
  • What do you call it when you dig something (such as an axe head) out of the mud?— Rod talk 09:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
  • I'd say that it was discovered during the excavation of wherever it was found, but it itself wasn't excavated. Malleus Fatuorum 09:54, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Tourism
  • "The owners of the Peat Moors Centre, however, Somerset County Council, have announced their intention of closing the Centre permanently from 31 October 2009." This is obviously a bit out of date now.
  • Updated.— Rod talk 16:48, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggested update to drainage section[edit]

In the light of this bit of news I would suggest that the drainage section needs updating. --Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 13:32, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Short paragraph added. Also updated Southlake Moor & Sowy River with same info.— Rod talk 19:55, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Lead image[edit]

The lead image isn't very good. Unfortunately the levels only form the foreground of the picture and the other half is dominated by a ridge that is anything but level I had a quick look on WIkimedia commons and couldn't see anything immediate, but there has to be a better image somewhere that we can use, ideally something that shows the levels going of for miles. --Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 08:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

It is very difficult to effectively photograph flat ground going into the distance. The article does talk about the Polden Hills & other hills, but I've also looked and been unable to find a better photo.— Rod talk 09:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Westbury cave[edit]

The article currently says "A Palaeolithic flint tool found in West Sedgemoor is the earliest indication of human presence in the area, dating from approximately 700,000 years ago." The site in question is the Westbury cave at Westbury-sub-Mendip; I don't have access to much in the way of sources, but Fairweather Eden, by Michael Pitts & Mark Roberts, Arrow Books, London, 1998, ISBN 0-09-964491-6, a book about the Boxgrove site, has a few pages on the cave. They give some details about the finds and then say that the best date for Westbury is 524,000 to 478,000 years before the present -- a round number of 500,000 is probably fine for this article. Page numbers for the reference are 121-123 and 131-132. The reason for the redating is complicated but comes down to a correlation between various dating schemes, primarily the marine isotope stages, in which Westbury is placed in OIS 13. I would also suggest referring to it as Westbury rather than West Sedgemoor -- the archaeological sources I've seen all refer to it as Westbury. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 14:46, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the follow up on this - More could be added to the Westbury-sub-Mendip article, where detail may be more relevant than in this article.— Rod talk 15:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I think that an article on Westbury cave could probably be written too. For this article I think all that's needed is to change the date, use the new source, and change the name from West Sedgemoor to Westbury. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 16:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
I'd be happy for the change to be made but could you do it as you obviously have access to the source and I don't.— Rod talk 16:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Done; I took out a couple of the other refs -- nothing wrong with them, but not really needed, I think. Put them back if you think they add value. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 17:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Map of settlements[edit]


The map to right is a start at a location map of the settlements. I'm not sure what villages you'd want to include - just repeat the location map~ for each of them. The base map is for Somerset as a whole, I can make one more tightly focused on the levels if preferred.

Btw, I'm not sure of the point of some of those long lists of settlement, I'd just mention the ones with some significance - saying Westonzoyland is in the Levels isn't really that important IMO.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:24, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for this - I'm going to take the liberty of editing it here (as I've never tried anything like this before) and get peoples comments before putting it into the article.— Rod talk 12:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Having added some of the key sites and think a more "tightly focused" one would be really useful.— Rod talk 18:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Base map now shows approximate area of levels (its a bit closer in than the topographic map, as that one needs the surrounding hills, this doesn't). The map at Lancashire#Demography provides an alternate way to do the labelling - if you want to make the towns more prominent than the villages for instance.--Nilfanion (talk) 19:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks I've now added all settlements with population over 1,500 using the format which puts the label next to the spot to address reviewers concern. I've used the sizes for label & dot but think I might need to make the largest ones smaller. I had to move some labels left to avoid them overlapping. Any further advice appreciated.— Rod talk 21:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
This is very helpful. The "on" of "Burnham-on-Sea" overlaps with the dot for Highbridge; could that perhaps be fixed by moving the inset image to the bottom left corner, moving the "Burnham-on-Sea" label to the left of the dot, and moving the "Highbridge" label to the right? Mike Christie (talklibrary) 00:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I have tried labels left and right for these two & could reduce the font size for the label for Burnham-on-Sea, but I'm unable to move the inset map. If the map was to be larger in its presentation I would add the villages with between 1,000 & 15,000 population but I haven't included "historical features" which don't have population eg Hinkley Point, Athelney etc.— Rod talk 07:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Some places "not on levels" have been removed. I think this issue relates to what the levels actually cover (with no formal definitions) but I had also tried to include some places which are mentioned in the article & some to give context. It could be argued Cheddar, Axbridge, Welss etc are not on the levels but give context. I note the category has been removed from some of these articles, but I'm actually working from List of locations in the Somerset Levels - perhaps this list should be sorted first.— Rod talk 09:08, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
It would be good to come up with a list of locations - but the ones I removed were clearly (to me) not on the levels. Ilchester was listed - which I can only assume was a mistake as it is miles away from the levels. Wedmore sits on top of a big ridge, albeit a ridge surrounded by levels (so perhaps it does belong). Cheddar, Glastonbury and Wells are all on the edge of the levels but I can see why they might be listed. I guess some consensus would be nice. --Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 09:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I would definately include Wedmore. Over and above the ones currently included, villages with between 1,000 & 1,500 are Mark (1,349), Brent Knoll (1,264), Meare (1,238), Bleadon (1,068), Langport (1,067), Kingsbury Episcopi (1,277). It may also be useful to add Dunball, Hinkley Point, Athelney etc which are mentioned in the article but wouldn't meet the population criteria & I'm not sure if we could use a different marker.— Rod talk 10:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I can just about accept that Langport is on the edge of the levels, but not Kingsbury Episcopi. If you look at a topgraphical map of the area (or use local knowledge) then you'll know that the A378 runs roughly east/west along a ridge that defines the southern edge of the levels. Anything south of that can't be on the levels - unless I'm completely misunderstanding the boundaries of the area. The levels are huge and run from the southern ridge of the western end of the Mendips (i.e. South of Brean, Bleadon, Shute Shelve, Axbridge, Cheddar etc), are bisected east/west by the ridge that the A39 runs along from Ashcott to Bridgwater, and are then defined at their southern end by the previously mentioned ridge that the A378 runs along. Am I wrong? --Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 10:51, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
OK strike Kingsbury, but perhaps we should be including other places included in the article but not on the map eg Burrowbridge, North Curry, (in fact that one should be in pop 1,625), Stoke St Gregory, Westhay, Bleadney, Rackley, Yeovilton, Aller, Burtle, Catcott, Chilton Polden, Cossington, Edington, Greinton, Lympsham, Mark, Meare, Middlezoy, Moorlinch, Othery, Pawlett, Puriton, Shapwick, Sharpham, Stawell, Weare, Wedmore, and Woolavington. What about sites such as the Battle of Sedgemoor, Glastonbury Lake Village, Meare Lake Village - but perhaps they need a different symbol - I am limited by not knowing what is possible with the map.— Rod talk 11:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I've added the battle to demonstrate how to use alternate icons - there's a few on Commons. Some of the complications in the Burnham-on-Sea area could be helped by using the white background like in the first version. Also, increasing the width may help - 400px is OK, but wider may work better. Too wide is bad in its own way too.--Nilfanion (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks - I've tried a few icons, reduced dot size & font for the largest, added a few villages etc. I've avoided the numbered labels as User:Mike Christie said on the FAC "because the reader has to go back and forth between the caption and the map to understand the relative positions of the named places". Would moving the inset to bottom left be possible? Further ideas/edits welcome, but I would be happy to put this into the article soon.— Rod talk 21:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I've now put the map into the article. Thanks to everyone for contributions— Rod talk 10:04, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

2012 summer flood[edit]

Please update the article regarding summer floods, the article describes annual winter flooding but weather pattern this year led to a summer flood. John a s (talk) 10:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi John a s, If you have appropriate sources you could always update the article yourself.— Rod talk 11:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Mud horse fishing[edit]

A useful source for anyone who likes the odd DYK redlink challenge: [1]. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:59, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I would be interested in collaborating. There is an example in the Watchet Boat Museum and more info here & video here. It is also mentioned on the Bridgwater Bay article.— Rod talk 17:44, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks Rod, I'll take a look. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:40, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
There's also this 2008 The Daily Telegraph feature on Adrian Sellick by Adrian Tierney-Jones: [2] (which says it was also common in South Wales). There is also a paper by Martyn C. Brown in Folk Life - Journal of Ethnological Studies, Volume 18, 1980 , pp. 24-27(4): here but pay for view - this might be available via High Beam. This is another nice video: [3] from Terry Flaxton on YT. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

BARB funding[edit]

The article says that the Burnham Area Rescue Boat is funded by Somerset County Council. I thought it was purchased by charitable donation & run by the RNLI. Was this particular mission/function funded by the county council? if so does anyone have a reference saying this?— Rod talk 14:42, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

"The Somerset Levels is" or "The Somerset Levels are"?[edit]

Both forms are used in the article - which is preferable / used by reliable sources? BencherliteTalk 13:08, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I've seen both forms in various books etc. I've asked for help from a grammar expert (or his talk page stalkers).— Rod talk 13:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
So I see from my watchlist :-) BencherliteTalk 14:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
If it's any help, the Caldicot and Wentloog Levels usually are. But then there's obviously two of those. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:50, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
The article should be consistent. "The Levels occupies an area..." would sound wrong to me, so if we go with "..occupy..." we should go with "...are...", in my view. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:58, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
A colleague has suggested that is is correct. When a place name ends with an "s" it often seems to cause confusion; I see that the Himalayas article has exactly the same problem. However as Martinevans123 implies there are several areas each named as the X Levels (and more technically some of the areas we know as the levels are "moors" - see List of locations in the Somerset Levels).— Rod talk 15:01, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
You could always get a view from WP:RD/L. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Question now asked. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I'd say that the Somerset Levels are so named because there's more than one of them. Otherwise it would The Somerset Level. It's a plural noun - or at least started off as one. But then, the Trossachs and the Cheviot Hills suddenly spring to mind! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
(...mumbles) Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:17, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Then it would be called the Somerset levels, not the Somerset Levels. Eric Corbett 15:55, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Ah, yes, like the Norfolk broads, the South downs and the Lincolnshire wolds? etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:07, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Let me quote from the opening few sentences of the South Downs article: "The South Downs is a range ... It is bounded ... it is characterised ... is relatively unpopulated ..." Eric Corbett 16:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
A useful comparison (... but is there only the one "down", then?) By the way, "The Broads are a network .."Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I suggest you try reading that article on the Broads, which says: "Although the terms Norfolk Broads and Suffolk Broads are used to identify specific areas within the two counties respectively, the whole area is frequently mistakenly referred to as the 'Norfolk Broads'". So there are indeed two Broads. Anyway, I'm not going to waste any more of my time discussing this with you, as it's quite clear that whichever side I'd come down on you'd have argued for the other. Eric Corbett 16:37, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Ah, so two Norfolk broads, then. And a great suggestion. Thanks for clearing that up - there was me thinking I was in two minds about this. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2014 (UTC) p.s. "The North York Moors is a national park ..."
It's interesting that "The Somerset Levels and Moors is a unique flat landscape..." sounds right, but so does "The Somerset Levels and Moors are unique, timeless and tranquil...". The latter goes on: "There’s masses of walking and cycling to be had...". Presumably that should be "There are masses...". Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:10, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
.. unless maybe it's meant to be mosses of walking?? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:17, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
The awkwardness of "The Levels occupies an area ..." is easily handled by recasting the sentence, such as in "The 160,000 acres occupied by the Levels corresponds broadly to ...". Eric Corbett 16:00, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Lord Smith: "The Somerset Levels are a completely unique landscape.. " [4]
Everythingexmoor: "The Somerset Levels is the most important wetland area in the UK.. " [5]
So not terribly clear, is it. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:25, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I can see arguments on both sides here. Personally I prefer the plural. I don't think it matters all that much but I do think it is important that the article chooses one and sticks to it. --John (talk) 21:53, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    If the area was called the Somerset Level we obviously wouldn't be having this discussion, but names ending in "s" seem to trigger some grammatical uncertainty in some people. Consistency is key of course though, and whichever choice is made some sentences will need to be rewritten to match the decision. Eric Corbett 22:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    Why is not possible for both constructions to be correct? As long as sentences, or even paragraphs, are internally consistent, surely there is no problem. We can look for other comparable examples of use in Wikipedia articles, but of course these cannot be used as WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    Is that a serious question? Eric Corbett 23:09, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    I agree with Martin - I think both can be used. Take the analogy of the Broads. The Broads, as a whole, is an area. At the same time, the Broads are stretches of water. In the case of this article, it depends, in each sentence, on whether the term Levels means the area as a whole, or whether it is being used to describe a set of related areas. So, I think consistency is actually less important than having a text that does not jar the reader. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    Then I'm afraid you've demonstrated yourself to be just as daft as Martin is. Eric Corbett 23:15, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    How kind. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:16, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    I think that's unlikely, personally.  : ) Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:17, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    I don't know Martin, so you may well be right. Eric Corbett 23:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    But, I think the answer is probably to find forms of words that are both consistent and don't jar the reader - which should be perfectly possible. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:21, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    I already suggested that, but nobody is listening, too many voices. Eric Corbett 23:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    .. was just basking in the glory there for a moment. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
    .. but ears full of bristles alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:29, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Teazel[edit]

What percentage of land is used for growing teazel? Unless it's a significant percentage I'm inclined to think it shouldn't be mentioned in the lead - it gives the impression it's more important than more usual arable crops. Also, with respect to teazel-growing, the article states that Fivehead is near Chard, which isn't really a credible statement. Chard isn't even in the Levels as far as I'm concerned. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:26, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Update on management since 2014 floods[edit]

There's a good BBC News article which could provide a number of updates to this article.

Link

Including the new Somerset Rivers Authority. Argovian (talk) 11:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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The West Country Challenge[edit]

Would you like to win up to £250 in Amazon vouchers for participating in The West Country Challenge?

The The West Country Challenge will take place from 8 to 28 August 2016. The idea is to create and improve articles about Bristol, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, Dorset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire, like this one.

The format will be based on Wales's successful Awaken the Dragon which saw over 1000 article improvements and creations and 65 GAs/FAs. As with the Dragon contest, the focus is more on improving core articles and breathing new life into those older stale articles and stubs which might otherwise not get edited in years. All contributions, including new articles, are welcome though.

Work on any of the items at:

or other articles relating to the area.

There will be sub contests focusing on particular areas:

To sign up or get more information visit the contest pages at Wikipedia:WikiProject England/The West Country Challenge.— Rod talk 16:02, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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