Talk:South Tyrol/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 → Archive 5

Section 1

Is this place officially part of Italy today? It's kind of hard to figure out from the article where this place is (I'm guessins somewhere in northern Italy, close to Switzerland and Austria). Dori 01:20, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

This article should redirect to Trentino-South Tyrol. john 04:24, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Since South Tyrol is just one part of the whole province Trentino-South Tyrol, I think it is better to leave it as it is. Gugganij 11:55, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, then this article needs to make clearer what is the relationship between South Tyrol and the whole province. Currently it's very confusing. john 19:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi John, I tried to make it a bit clearer. You might find this link interesting: Autonomous status of South Tyrol. Gugganij 23:30, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

This page is completely crazy. In English we list these two provinces of Italy as the Province of Trento (TN) and the Province of Bolzano (BZ) (Bolzano-Bozen, if you want). Province of South Tyrol? Have certain users gone mad? The REGION is Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. The provinces are TN and BZ.

Maybe I should know being an Austrian, but I don't: I was writing a paragraph on the concept of Austrian nation under Ethnic Germans as to the fact that Austrians, although previously considered Germans, developed a concept of distinctness from Germans and of an Austrian nation during the 20th century. So now I wonder do German-speaking Südtiroler consider themselves as German-speaking Italians, Germans or Austrians? Jakob Stevo 13:44, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

None of the above. "Südtiroler" (the term that describes the German-speaking inhabitants as opposed to "Altoatesini" which describes the Italian-speaking) consider themselves just that: Südtiroler. They often state their differences with Austrians, Germans. Not to mention Italians. Claudio 9:59, 6 Sept 2004(UTC)

For geo-politic questions I think it will be much more desiderable our reference to the Helsinki Agreements concerning Europe. Otherwise it will be possible and reasonable - for exemple - to rename Malvinas the Falklands.--Cloj 08:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)


Alter Ades vs Sudtirol

Could anybody back up the claim that Alter Ades is the official name of South Tyrol in Ladin? I spoke with a Ladine and he insisted that he never heard it. He claimed that Sudtirol is the official equivalent of South Tyrol in Ladin. Gugganij 16:26, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alter Ades looks like latin, not ladin. Südtirol is the correct one. Here is the link to the ladin version of the official Südtirol network that proves that in the title itself: Rëi Zivica de Südtirol.

Side note about history, I've added information about anti-Italian terrorism. I've also found other things to be inaccurate, but left them in place for now. For example Italy actually never sided with Germany and Austria in ww1. Italy joined in 1915 against Austria. The description in World_War_I#Italian_participation seems correct.

I changed Alter Ades to Sudtirol. Gugganij 00:18, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Don't forget the Umlaut ü. Gryffindor


Aberrant !

South Tyrol DOES NOT EXIST! The correct name for the region is Alto Adige. South Tyrol should redirect there.


South Tyrol IS NOT a province of Italy, but it is just a geographic region, without a local government assigned by the Italian Constitution. I strongly suggest to set this page in a more suitable context! --Mac 8 July 2005 10:04 (UTC)

South Tyrol (in German: Südtirol, in Italian: Alto Adige) is identical with the province of Bolzano/Bozen (BZ) and these terms are also used in the offical name of this province with a special status which is mentioned in the headline: in Italian the name is Provincia autonoma di Bolzano-Alto Adige, in German Autonome Provinz Bozen-Südtirol. I would say this is fairly correct.

South Tyrol is a autonomous region that forms together with Trentino one of the 20 regions that form Italy. So south Tyrol can not be compared to one of the 19 other regions but it does exist. The correct name is, as already stated above, autonomous province of Bozen-South Tyrol, but nobody uses that Name, everybody just says "South Tyrol". It's a little bit like "The United States of America", "The U.S." or "The United States" or even "America". All these terms are often used for the same geographical region = state and they all exist, but only one is official. --

great picture

This image is great; use it as soon as there is space next to a relevant section. — Sverdrup 12:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Terrorists

This article shows bias by calling Sudtiroler martyrs "terrorists" and I'm hereby changing them to "Freedom Fighters" --24.141.214.87

this people where'nt freedomfighter.--MartinS 10:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the province of Alto Adige (if you prefer South Tyrol) was not under occupation at that time, so they are (and have to be considered) under every evidence, terrorists.

The weren't freedom fighters. Italy gave them all the freedom a man could desire. They were mere nationalists, italian-haters and terrorists, and their children still share the same mentality in the 22nd century... Poor men...

your words show, that you have no hate...
"was not under occupation at that time" is not true.
The german speaking peaople where treated badly compared to the italian speaking people. If one part of the population is treated bad, is that so different from "occupation"?
Italian see the "political activists" as terrorists, the german speaking people in South Tyrol see them as freedom fighters. So, who is right?
The final goal was to be free from Italy. But since this was not a realistic vision, it was decided to go for "we want the same rights as the italians have". This means, by changing the target, you call them now Terrorists, otherwise you would have called them "Freedome fighters", by having more dramatic goals?! You have to be very bad, to be a "freedome fighter", and a moderate person is a terrorist? Strange logic, you apply... Fantasy 11:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

terrorist -> political activist?

Since "freedomefighter" is not acepted by italian speaking people, and "terrorist" not by german speaking people, maybe "policital activist" is a neutral enough term? Fantasy 11:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Why should we call "political activists" people who placed bombs and actually killed people (Sesto Pusteria 26-Aug- 1965, 2 Carabinieri killed by the south tyrolean "political activists" - 25-Lug-1966 S. Martino in Casies, 3 Finanzieri killed by the "political activists"... and so on... the list is very long). History cannot be discussed with people who don't want to admit the truth... They were terrorists. The ones of them who demonstrated innocent have been graced long ago. The others have to be treated as terrorists.

As far as I know one person got killed because he saw one bomb in a tree (where it was supposed to harm no one) and (as he had done already once and survived) instead of alarming the police he wanted to get the credits AGAIN for saving mankind and went up the tree himself AGAIN to deactivate the bomb. And he died.
From my knowledge the group I am talking of (Sepp Kerschbaumer/BAS) did not (intend to) kill people. This group tried to avoid that. But it was not "one" group. There are always people who want to go to more extremes. So, if there have been some people more extreme, this means, every Southyrolean is now a terrorist? Is, because one palestinian kills other people, every palestinian a terrorist?
There is a difference. Ignoring it is too easy, but some seem to prefer that :-( Fantasy 08:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

If the anonymous user insists... I present, vote # umpteen. —Nightstallion (?) 23:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. Britannica and my own encyclopedia all use Trentino-Alto-Adige. Trentino-South Tyrol does not even exist in references. Is WIKI going to be used for political revisionism? This is an important aspect we now see from certain users coming up with their own names to fit their desires. Rossifumi-gp 01:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Current name is neutral without being incorrect. —Nightstallion (?) 23:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose This POV pushing is really annoying. Gryffindor 23:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Which article are y'all talking about? Every comment above seems to be referring to Trentino-South Tyrol but this is the South Tyrol talkpage. South Tyrol should remain South Tyrol -- check out all of the local gov't links at the bottom of the article -- they all use South Tyrol in English. (But if Trentino-South Tyrol is in question, I would support a change to Trentino-Alto Adige for the reasons above. This is not contradictory -- South Tyrol is majority German-speaking while Trentino-South Tyrol is majority Italian-speaking.) LuiKhuntek 02:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
    I don't understand your argument at all 71.106.187.188 03:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose and agree with LuiKhuntek. Olessi 05:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, let's remain consistent with [1] and [2]. BTW me, myself and I agree. -- User:Docu
  • Oppose a sad day, seeing people so ful of hate... Fantasy 09:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
exactly what i think when i see your posts fantasy boy/girl.
You find the reply on my User talk:Fantasy page.
Regarding "boy/girl": I do really love this kind of people.
When there are no more arguments, they go to the personal level. A true sign of no real arguments available.
Do you mean, that, if I was male, you would hit me harder as if I was female?
...and you don't even have the courage to use a user-name, what a great person, you really stand for your words... Fantasy 09:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose as I cant find any evidence for "Alto Adige" being used as predominant name for the region and because I also agree with User:Fantasy Cyberevil 16:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The page is about the province. The province has a majority of German speakers who call it südtirol. That translates into English (and we're discussing the English page) as South Tyrol. Though not very well known (like the region), this is a real name in English and categorically not something that has just been created. Unfortunately, this probably stems from the separation from the rest of the Tyrol at the end of World War 1 and it therefore appears political. The average English speaker probably has no concept of any political issues involved and probably also couldn't much care. Some of them, however, will have heard of the Tyrol and can therefore use the name South Tyrol to easily pinpoint a possible location for the area. This is an aim that ought to be important to an essentially geographical entry. Alto-Adige is the Italian name and I've never once seen this translated as High-Adige. In general, English speakers, won't have heard of the Adige, won't understand much from the name and won't pronounce it right either. Given a choice I reckon many would pick South Tyrol on the grounds that they have more chance of saying it correctly. In additon, if an English name exists for somewhere, then it should be the name used by an English Encyclopaedia. Otherwise, the logical next steps would be to change the English entry to Roma instead of Rome and the Italian entry to Edinburgh instead of Edimburgo. Neither of these moves would greatly benefit anyone. In this instance, the Google test might better be called the Google fallacy. Most information on the province is likely to originate from Italian sources. This would use the term Alto-Adige. As discussed above it doesn't really translate well, so most English references would stick with Alto-Adige. The German name would probably be rendered into English but few English websites would take a German site as a reference. If it were possible to count only references, in English, that were translations of material from the province it might be a worthwhile test. As it is, the bias is probably against German speakers because, even in English, it includes material sourced from a wider Italian population. Conversely, I've never seen the regional name written as Trentino-South Tyrol. The half-English, half-Italian doesn't really work. Here the majority is Italian not German speaking and so like LuiKhuntek I'd support changing that page. In the meantime, I've been adding Infoboxes to a lot of pages for Italian provinces and will bring this one in line shortly. Meddlin' Pedant 00:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose as above. Martg76 22:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Sock puppet votes

  • Support. I find no English maps that show "South Tyrol", only "Alto Adige". Viewtool 08:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support. The Google Test (tm) by far shows Alto Adige as the more commonly used term by a huge factor. Doesn't South Tyrol give an unfair bias to the Germananic point of reference? Account101 06:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support. Gryffindor made up the name Trentino-South Tyrol and imposed it in the first place -without- a vote. First of all, you can not just make up names that go against what any other major information source shows. Secondly, you can't impose this change unilaterally and then make it the issue that has to be voted on. Thirdly, how can we make a fair vote in such a forum? You have to go by the facts. Trentino-Alto Adige is the official name used in Italian and English maps. If you want a compromise Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol is acceptable. Trentino-South Tyrol is 110% inflamatory and is in no way neutral. Nightstallion, you should know this. Gryffindor.. well we know what he has done and what he will do. 192.45.72.27 00:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet/IP address of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support. Looking at the log, GRYFFINDOR has moved the pages and the names all on his own without prior agreement. Every major reference calls the region Trentino-Alto Adige. Using "South Tyrol" is divisive, political and German-biased. GRYFFINDOR should explain -his- actions on why he made many conversions of worlds to only German or English names that claim a German view. 71.106.187.188 03:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet/IP address of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support Alto Adige is the name used in every reference I've seen in English. Jamesbozen 04:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support My European history class shows this as Trentino-Alto Adige. South Tyrol sounds like an Austrian viewpoint. Wikifun-usa 04:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp
  • Support, lets remain consistent with International maps in English. Nospu 06:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC) — sock puppet of Rossifumi-gp

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Open letter to Gryffindor: Are you 12 years old? You say this POV pushing is annoying? Do you think everyone can't see through what you are doing? You should be ashamed, as a European and as a Human. You try to make up a new term to call the region and make Wiki a political forum. You should be incredibly ashamed. YOU are the only one who is pushing POV. 192.45.72.27 00:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting: How can we possibly have fair voting on here? I or anyone else could register multiple accounts and mass vote. Or you can happen to have more Nationalistic Germans or Italians who come and want to impose something that does not fit with what is Internationally recognized. The region is known in English and Italian maps/books as Trentino-Alto Adige. Trentino-South Tyrol does not exist. Using Wiki to create new names in a political mindset is beyond unethical. 192.45.72.27 00:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

That is precisely why votes from users who have little or no other contributions will not be counted, and neither votes from anonymous users. —Nightstallion (?) 08:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
So -you- are dictating how votes are counted? I don't think this is fair. How will you deal with the issue Anon brought up about just dumb luck of more German-biased or Italian-biased users coming to vote? It just turns into a farse. I just read above about a proposal for Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Why not use that to be really neutral, or is the point of some people on here to just cause a war for years over this South Tyrol that Gryffindor pushed on this page?? Rossifumi-gp 08:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
No, Wikipedia policy and common sense "dictate" that sock puppet votes are not to be counted. Regardless of that, I've got nothing against Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and would likely vote in favour of it, but what you're doing is Italian POV-pushing. The region is bilingual, after all. —Nightstallion (?) 08:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I have only one account, and you even went and blocked my vote. This is obscene. I actually would suggest a Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol as this is what I would like. So why don't we make quite a change. I have nothing against you or anyone else here voting or posting, but I for one am from the region and I think I've seen a lot of bias. And you should not make accusations like this, I've read your previous comments and had respect for you, but you coming and making blanket accusations is really low quality. Rossifumi-gp 09:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I am being indifferent when it comes to the legal status of South Tyrol, but I also can't really find any conclusive evidence that the region should go by the name "Alto Adige." From what I quickly looked up, the dominant language in that region seems to be German and therefore most of its inhabitants seem to use the German name. Cyberevil 16:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Not moved, obviously. And to the next POV warrior who wants to try this: Not before January 2007, you hear me? —Nightstallion (?) 08:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

We hear ya, buddy. But what happens in January 2007? //Big Adamsky 08:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, one year just seemed about long enough. ;) —Nightstallion (?) 09:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Just stumbled on this debate and am a little surprised at the lack of historical knowledge here, as if people think the name Alto Adige has been pulled from thin air. Truth is even most Italy tour books explain where the name comes from. Basically when Italy got control of the region after WWI, the Fascist government wanted to make it more "Italian," so the name was changed ("Alto Adige" refers to the headwaters of the Adige River, which flows through the region) in an attempt to connect it with the rest of the Italian peninsula. Having traveled in the region I can confirm that nowadays BOTH names are in use (seems all the links at the bottom of the page were chosen on purpose because they say South Tyrol, but see http://www.provincia.bz.it/turismo.htm for another perspective). Since the whole point of Wikipedia is to be above politics, I'd vote for the above suggestion of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol which can then be well explained in the article. (Sorry I'm not doing it, but I'm a newbie and don't have the time to figure it out at the moment.) "South Tyrol" is wrong for these purposes in any event - if you're so concerned about the German speakers being kept down then you might want to make sure that the name they prefer is actually given in their language. Cheers from an American expat in Italia. 85.18.136.107 23:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if you may have missed the point of some of the comments above. The importance is not the existence of the term Alto Adige (which is in my guidebook too), just it's relevance in English (in what is the English language version of Wikipeida). Similarly, the term used is South Tyrol, not SuedTirol or Südtirol because it is an page in the English Wiki not the German one.
Take a closer look at the website you've referred to. Remove 'turismo.htm' from the end of the URL and have a look at the welcome page. http://www.provincia.bz.it/ and then look at this one http://www.provinz.bz.it/. The first is the Italian page. The second, the German version. In both cases, the link to the English translations refers to South Tyrol. Which is a good indication that the page is labelled correctly.
Please don't just move the page. I think the vote has been closed and the issue settled for a year. Also please be a little careful when suggesting links have been chosen to support an argument. I imagine at least some of the links in question were chosen because they are the official sites of the region in question. They are sensible starting points for further information and suggesting they are chosen solely to support an argument is probably unhelpful on a page where plenty of people are clearly more interested in political point scoring.

Pro-Tyrol text

Moved from the beginning of the talk page. --Panairjdde 17:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

---

It's important to understand that turn of the century Italians from what's now "Trentino" never considered themselves anything other than Tyroleans. No member of my local "Tyrol Club" had any ancestors from what is now German-speaking "Suedtirol", rather, those ancestors were all from the Val Guicardina to the south in what's now Trentino. The Tyrol includes Austrian Tyrol AND Suedtirol, AND TRENTINO. - ALL THREE REGIONS Usages began to change only after WWI but Tyrolean families who left Austria and Italy before then, know how the term "The Tyrol" should really be used.

You may be interested to know that during Swiss rule like 500 years ago, neighboring Valtellina w/ Bormio were often called Westtirol instead of just "Veltlin".

There needs to be some major cleanup and maybe consolidation of articles

---

The point is not how local people call their country, but how an international encyclopedia in English should call that country.--Panairjdde 18:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Panairjdde, The point is that an international English encyclopedia and even comments in the discussion pages should call a region by a correct, and historically supported name, AND also avoid the possibility of confusion. I'm just pointing out that messages in this discussion-page mentioning "South Tyrol" are sometimes less than helpful - it's clear that the contributors are discussing "Suedtirol", when in fact 'Southern' or 'South' Tyrol is really south of the border of "Suedtirol". It should be made clear that "South Tyrol" and "Suedtirol" are NOT the same region. Suedtirol is north of South Tyrol, and the Tyrol is bigger than many of you are suggesting.

"Suedtirol" should not be the name used in an English Encyclopedia - BECAUSE "Suedtirol" and "South Tyrol" lexically/etymologically mean the same thing, when in reality they describe two SEPARATE regions. Is there any reason to have the possibility of "Suedtirol" and "South Tyrol" both appearing on the same map over 2 different regions? Its nutty.

Can you provide any reference for the existence of a Suedtirol and a South Tyrol, as different regions? Just to know, Bolzano is in South Tyrol or in Suedtirol? And Trento?--Panairjdde 08:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

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