Talk:Southern Ireland

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Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:Requested moves which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:59, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be there. The discussion below is the relevant one. Scolaire (talk) 16:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Southern Ireland (1921–22) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

'Southern Ireland'[edit]

Of Southern Ireland,[1] 'country' is either too imprecise or implies statehood. SI and NI were part of the country commonly known by its abbreviation the 'United Kingdom'. Qexigator (talk) 08:46, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I didn't see this because it was originally posted on the wrong page. At any rate, I think we've reached an understanding via edit summaries. Scolaire (talk) 10:16, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland were firstly the names of the two territories that the country of Ireland was divided into. Ireland was a country within the country called the United Kingdom. I think Ireland would have remained a country as the partition was supposed to be temporary; it was done to avoid civil war. Wales was regarded as a seperate country within the United Kingdom and it didn't even have it's own parliament. So I guess Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland fit many definitions of "country". AlwynJPie (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

South of Ireland is most commonly used -[edit]

On what planet is this true? - "Southern Ireland, South Ireland or South of Ireland is most commonly used to refer to the southern part of Ireland." I can't find any citations on this page to back this up. Personally the South of Ireland to me has always been the Republic.Dubs boy (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Southern Ireland is a synonym for the Republic of Ireland. Used as such in Ireland and the rest of the world. 92.16.160.88 (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Would need cited otherwise should be removed as groundless. Mabuska (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Its use is cited here: Republic of Ireland#Name. Rob984 (talk) 23:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Republic of Ireland#Name does not support that but says; it merely states that those names are used and not that they are commonly used. That is what you would need sources for. ww2censor (talk) 23:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Here are two examples where usage of the term Southern Ireland as a synonym of the Republic of Ireland are found: http://www.thesurvivorstrust.org/find-support/southern-ireland/ http://www.uk-bedandbreakfasts.com/sireland/ AlwynJPie (talk) 01:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Southern Ireland: The Modern Meaning[edit]

This discussion closed months ago. Please don't resurrect. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:33, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

"Southern Ireland" was the official name given to the larger of the two areas that Ireland was partitioned into; i.e. the 26 counties, with the remaining 6 counties being named Northern Ireland. Since the partition the term Southern Ireland has been extensively used to mean this same part of Ireland, now directly administered by the current independant state. The term is never used to mean the province of Munster or for the South Ireland European Parliamentary constituency. The article should firstly address its modern meaning and the origin of the official use of the term. The article should address other uses of the term, such as the 1921-1922 administration, by a hatnote or a seperate disambiguation article.

Souhern Ireland's existence as a political entity did end on 6 December 1922. Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland became autonomous regions of the newly created Irish Free State on 6 December 1922 under terms of the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922. Is there evidence that Southern Ireland ever ended? I speculate that the term Southern Ireland may not have been used because the Free State and the Republic of Ireland claimed sovereignty over the whole island not just the 26 counties.

The political status of Southern Ireland has changed a few times since the Partition but the term Southern Ireland continues to be used when referring to Ireland in debates in the UK parliament. Here is a link to one of many examples of UK parliamentary verbatim available where the term Southern Ireland is used for the said context: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmniaf/886/6020107.htm AlwynJPie (talk) 09:44, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Southern Ireland's existence as a political entity did not end on 6 December 1922, because Southern Ireland never existed as a political entity. A "Parliament of Southern Ireland" was legislated for in the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, but never sat. British rule in Ireland via the Dublin Castle administration continued during the War of Independence and through the year following the signing of the Treaty, except in Northern Ireland after 1921. Northern Ireland and "Southern Ireland" did not became autonomous regions of the Irish Free State, because no autonomous regions were created by the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922, only a free state. The "Ulster Month" allowed Northern Ireland, which was in actual existence, to opt out of the Free State, and thus the territory of the Free State was the island of Ireland minus Northern Ireland. It was not a successor state to "Southern Ireland" because no such state ever existed in practice. As has been pointed out to you on countless occasions on multiple talk pages, your version of history and geography is not to be found in any history or geography book. It is original research, and not even good research. Find a reliable source to verify your assertions (hint: Mrs Smith of the Freight Transport Association giving evidence at a Select Committee would not count as a reliable source), or stop your disruptive filibustering on talk pages.
As I told you on your talk page, this is not an article. It is a disambiguation page. The "South" constituency is on the list because "South Ireland" redirects to here. Munster is not on the list; it is under "See also". Scolaire (talk) 10:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
The Government of Ireland Act 1920 divided Ireland into two territories, Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland. The Act was intended to establish separate Home Rule institutions within two new subdivisions of Ireland: the six north-eastern counties were to form "Northern Ireland", while the larger part of the country was to form "Southern Ireland". Both areas of Ireland were to continue as a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and provision was made for their future reunification under common Home Rule institutions. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1920/67/pdfs/ukpga_19200067_en.pdf
All 128 MPs elected to the House of Commons of Southern Ireland in the May 1921 elections were returned unopposed, and 124 of them, representing Sinn Féin, declared themselves TDs (Irish for Dáil Deputies) and assembled as the Second Dáil of the Irish Republic.
With only the four Unionist MPs (all representing graduates of the Irish Universities) and 15 appointed senators turning up for the state opening of the Parliament of Southern Ireland at the Royal College of Science in Dublin (now Government Buildings) in June 1921, the new legislature was suspended. Southern Ireland was ruled, for the time being, directly from London as it had been before the Government of Ireland Act.
The final provisions of the 1920 Act remaining in force were repealed under the terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, after the Good Friday Agreement. In the republic, the Statute Law Revision Act 2007 repealed the Act almost 85 years after Constitution of the Irish Free State replaced it as the basic constitutional law.[1]
The polities may have changed but the term Southern Ireland is still widely used to mean the area covered by the 26 counties. AlwynJPie (talk) 23:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Irish Times 10 January 2007, p4.
Yes, all that is in the Southern Ireland (1921–22) article, and it doesn't contradict anything that I said. Southern Ireland as a polity never existed in practice. The Free State occupied the same area as "Southern Ireland" but it did not succeed "Southern Ireland", because that polity never existed in practice. Some people still use "Southern Ireland" to refer to the 26 counties (which is only natural as the other part of the island is called "Northern Ireland"), but that does not make it the primary meaning of the term. A lot of people also use it to refer to the part of Ireland south of the midlands. Scolaire (talk) 08:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
To avoid misunderstanding, since the Partition, the terms Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland are generally reserved for the 32 counties and the 6 counties respectfully. For example, nobody would refer to County Donegal, Ireland’s most northerly county, as being in Northern Ireland.
The term Southern Ireland is synonymous with the area covered by the 26 counties but not truly synonymous with the Irish Free State or the Republic of Ireland because, for about two days, from 6 December 1922 Northern Ireland was also part of the newly created Irish Free State. This constitutional episode arose because of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the legislation introduced to give that Treaty legal effect.
The Treaty was given legal effect in the United Kingdom through the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922. That Act established, on 6 December 1922, the new Dominion for the whole island of Ireland. Legally therefore, on 6 December 1922, Northern Ireland became an autonomous region of the newly created Irish Free State. However, the Treaty and the laws which implemented it also allowed Northern Ireland to "opt out" of the Irish Free State. Under Article 12 of the Treaty, Northern Ireland could exercise its opt out by presenting an address to the King requesting not to be part of the Irish Free State. Once the Treaty was ratified, the Houses of Parliament of Northern Ireland had one month (dubbed the "Ulster month") to exercise this opt out during which month the Irish Free State Government could not legislate for Northern Ireland, holding the Free State's effective jurisdiction in abeyance for a month. Northern Ireland immediately left the Irish Free State.
In 1937 the Fianna Fáil government presented a draft of an entirely new Constitution to Dáil Éireann. An amended version of the draft document was subsequently approved by the Dáil. A referendum was then held on the same day as the 1937 general election, when a relatively narrow majority approved it. The new Constitution of Ireland (Bunreacht na hÉireann) repealed the 1922 Constitution, and came into effect on 29 December 1937.
The new constitution claimed jurisdiction over all of Ireland while recognising that legislation would not apply in Northern Ireland (see Articles 2 and 3). Articles 2 and 3 were reworded in 1998 to remove jurisdictional claim over the entire island and to recognise that "a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island". AlwynJPie (talk) 02:40, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
Alwyn, time to drop the stick. Murry1975 (talk) 02:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
Since the Partition, the terms Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland are generally reserved for the 32 [sic] counties and the 6 counties respectfully [sic]. So now we've gone from "widely used" via "extensively used" to "reserved". Reserved by whom? By what directive? Why are the rest of us completely unaware of this? Apart from Mrs Smith of the Freight Transport Association, you haven't even given us evidence of common use. The copy-and-paste from the Irish Free State article that makes up the rest of your post doesn't say anything about the use of "Southern Ireland". Listen to Murry, and drop it. Scolaire (talk) 07:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
AlwynJPie you are just way off the beam on this one. Let it be. ww2censor (talk) 11:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
Southern Ireland (small 's') - Limerick, southern Tipperary, Kilkenny, Carlow, Wexford, and points south. Southern Ireland (large 's') - not used, except (occasionally) incorrectly. WP:FLOG. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Well it isn't used much nowadays but the term used to be used quite often when there was an argument over Ireland's claim to Northern Ireland. It would have saved so much bother if either the claim hadn't been made the way it was or the state had just been called the Republic of Ireland instead of that just being used to allow Britain to have some sort of diplomatic relations. Southern Ireland was never an official name of anything even if it was used in some abortive legislation. Whatever about the version of history AlwynJPie would like to believe it just ain't so. Dmcq (talk) 16:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry! I meant to say 26 not 32. That paragraph should thus have read:
“To avoid misunderstanding, since the Partition, the terms Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland are generally reserved for the 26 counties and the 6 counties respectfully. For example, nobody would refer to County Donegal, Ireland’s most northerly county, as being in Northern Ireland.”
Use of the term Southern Ireland to mean the 26 counties is wide and extensive. The example I show is just one of many that can be found. If the Republic claim sovereignty over the whole island what other term can be used just for the 26 counties? But I understand that there are some people who do not recognise the Partition and will never use the terms Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland in principle. AlwynJPie (talk) 23:51, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
That "some people" argument is just a red herring. Most people the world over have no problem using "Northern Ireland", and most people the world over use "Ireland" or "the Republic of Ireland" for the 26 counties. Finding "many" examples of people using "Southern Ireland" for the 26 counties does not show that it is the name predominantly used for the 26 counties (it most certainly is not) or that the 26 counties is the predominant use of "Southern Ireland". What you need to do, as I've told you repeatedly, is to produce is a reliable source that says that the 26 counties is the predominant use of "Southern Ireland". Since you haven't cited any in the thirteen months you've been engaged in this one-man crusade, I think it's safe to assume you haven't managed to find any.
Continuing to push this argument after four editors (not including me) have asked you in reasonable terms to stop is verging on trolling. I'm going to deny you recognition from now on by not replying to any future posts. Scolaire (talk) 07:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the other editors to leave it be. User:AlwynJPie, time to move on. Snappy (talk) 16:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
What makes a name an official name? Surely if the name was defined and used in an Act of Parliamemt it is an official name. Someone please enlighten me! AlwynJPie (talk) 19:12, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
I, like many others, use the term Southern Ireland purely as an apolitical geographical term for the 26 counties. The terms Free State or the Republic are not appropriate as they have and, in some respects, still claim all 32 counties. Southern Ireland has always been just the 26 counties. AlwynJPie (talk) 19:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
Its not what you use, its what is encyclopedic and accurate. Southern Ireland has always been Cork. Now if you dont have anything new to add. It is time to stop feeding. Murry1975 (talk) 08:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
County Cork may be the southernmost county of Ireland but I have never heard it referred to as Southern Ireland; it would be like calling County Donegal Northern Ireland. But I accept that the southern counties of Ireland, or southerly parts of Ireland, which include County Cork, are sometimes referred to as southern Ireland. AlwynJPie (talk) 23:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
In the wider world "Southern Ireland" means the Republic of Ireland. This usage is very common and - in the wider world - is unambiguous. 141.6.11.24 (talk) 11:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I am an editor myself but accessed these articles via VPN on my work computer, not logged on. I think it would be polite, if you want to take part in discussions, to identify yourself. Scolaire (talk) 12:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't think so, my impression is that it was mainly a British expression and a bit dated now. What's really needed here though instead of peoples' impressions is s citation from a reliable source saying something about it. Dmcq (talk) 22:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure. I wouldn't say it's dated. Try a Google search and you'll see just how widely the term is used to refer to the Republic of Ireland. Yes, it's used extensively in Britain, almost as the most common term, but as this link shows, it also has usage - I would say wide usage - in the rest of the English-speaking world[2].141.6.11.23 (talk) 14:06, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ah the Street Fighter fan IP located to Switzerland returns. If they have a user account, then why do they make so many edits as an IP, and not just that one IP, considering the last number variation they have used? You have an account and you should always use your account otherwise it can come across as socking, especially if your using a VPN. Mabuska (talk) 14:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I think we need to deny both of these trolls recognition by just not responding to them any more. Scolaire (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. Mabuska (talk) 21:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Unlike the terms Irish Free State or Republic of Ireland which, until 1999, claimed all of Ireland, the term Southern Ireland has always been just the 26 counties. AlwynJPie (talk) 01:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
I wonder whether the term has really just come to prominence post Irish independence? 141.6.11.23 (talk) 11:32, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that the use of the term Southern Ireland to distinguish the 26 counties from Northern Ireland would have become more common after 7 December 1922 when Northern Ireland opted out of the Free State to become part of the United Kingdom again as this widened the division. Before the formation of the Free State, under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, not only were both Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland still part of the United Kingdon, there was a Council of Ireland to co-ordinate matters of common concern to both Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland parliaments with each parliament possessing the ability, in identical motions, to vote powers to the Council, which it was hoped would evolve back into a single Irish parliament. AlwynJPie (talk) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Why do you wast your time on this sort of silliness? Yes the British government said there should be such a council - but it never did anything on behalf of the whole of Ireland because only Northern Ireland supported it, the rest of Ireland ignored it completely. I might as well declare myself the Grand High Panjandrum of the British Isles and I'd be equally effective and would waste less peoples' time. Dmcq (talk) 22:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Dmcq, I think you missed the bit where we decided we're going to deny recognition. --Scolaire (talk) 11:47, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

How successful the administrations formed under the 1920 Act turned out is not the point. The point is two self-governing territories were created by the United Kingdom government. This may not have been recognised by the Irish Republic government which had declared Ireland independent from Great Britain in January 1919 but few countries of the world recognised the Irish Republic as legitimate. AlwynJPie (talk) 13:37, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Request to change Southern Ireland from a disambiguation page to an article[edit]

Because Southerm Ireland was the name given to the larger of the two parts of Ireland that were created when Ireland was partitioned under the Government of Ireland Act 1920 and the term Southern Ireland has since almost universally been used to mean this same area of Ireland I feel Southern Ireland does not meet the criteria to warrent it as a disambiguation page and it should become an article with a hatnote to a diambiguation page refered to as Southern Ireland (disambiguation) where other usages of the term can be linked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Disambiguation_pages AlwynJPie (talk) 15:06, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Articles are about topics. What would the topic be? Would the majority of searches for Southern Ireland be for the topic? Dmcq (talk) 17:16, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
An article on what? The term? You best bet here would be to draft an article, move it into the mainspace if it is accepted at a title such as Southern Ireland (place name), then request that article is moved here on the basis of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Good luck. The reality is the primary topic of this term is Republic of Ireland, but that simply isn't going to go down with the vast majority of editors who actually care. Being directed here is is tolerable however. And much better than the old destination. Irish Republic is the real perplexity... Rob984 (talk) 17:21, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I was thinking of just a short and simple article that explains the modern meaning and historical origin, with appropriate links and a hatnote for any other possible meanings. AlwynJPie (talk) 18:22, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Have you got sources showing you have a notable topic? And are you sure that the topic is more notable than the other things users would want to find when they look for Southern Ireland? I don't believe either of those is true so lets see some evidence. Dmcq (talk) 21:19, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

"Erroneously described as Southern Ireland"[edit]

Bkonrad, the name of Ireland, the state, is "Ireland". Under statute, its official description is "the Republic of Ireland". Referring to the state as "Southern Ireland" - either the name of a state that no longer exists, or a geographical description - is, therefore, erroneneous. This is fact, not just POV. There is no need to edit war over this. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

PS - you may also want to read the prior discussions on the "Southern Ireland" issue... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:30, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree it's erroneous, though I'm not sure that really needs to be stated. It might be better off in the See also section per MOS:DABSEEALSO: "Some entries may belong in a "See also" section at the bottom of the page: Terms which can be confused with Title". Rob984 (talk) 14:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
It's not erroneous. If it were to be given as an official description of the state, it would be erroneous, but it's not. If it were to be given as a geographical description, it would not be strictly accurate (The Inishowen peninsula being to the north of Northern Ireland), but it's not. It's an informal description: people talk about "the North" and "the South" or about "Northern Ireland" and "Southern Ireland". It's a reasonable and obvious distinction. It does not lead to confusion (though it may lead some people, especially Donegal natives, to get hot under the collar), therefore it is not erroneous. It's simply an aka. It certainly doesn't belong in "See also", it belongs in the main section. Scolaire (talk) 15:13, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
What Scolaire said. If the description is in fact erroneous, then that should be stated with appropriate verifiable references in Republic of Ireland#Name. Currently this section simply states ... the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South". olderwiser 15:25, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
It is erroneous to all the Republic of Ireland "Southern Ireland" so if one can not come to a consensus, the entry should be remove altogether. For the time being I've revert it to the status quo. ww2censor (talk) 16:50, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Except it wasn't the status quo. This is the status quo; It was stable from December 2015 until yesterday. I'm reverting again, pending discussion. Scolaire (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
With regard to this edit summary, I would not agree that it is "only used by people who lack knowledge of the topic". It is used frequently by Irish people who know exactly where the border runs, and what its historical background is. Per older ≠ wiser, it would need a reliable source to say that it is used erroneously (i.e. in ignorance) rather than simply colloquially. Scolaire (talk) 17:34, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
A couple of quotes from the top of MOSDAB, mainly for the benefit of Iveagh Gardens re his edits today
  • "Disambiguation pages are not articles"
  • "In brief, the pages should contain only disambiguation content"
In other words, a dab page is not a place for editorialising. The linked article is the place for that (or better yet, propose it at the talk page of the linked article). Scolaire (talk) 16:42, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the information. I do think there can be a way of disambiguating to Republic of Ireland, while using the name Ireland as the sovereign state, in a way that subtly acknowledges that that Southern Ireland is not the best description. But if I come up with that, I'll propose it here first! —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 09:13, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Could I propose changing Republic of Ireland, a state sometimes referred to as "Southern Ireland" to simply Republic of Ireland, a sovereign state". That some people might refer to it as Southern Ireland is almost implied by the fact of it being a disambiguated suggestion. Wikipedia is not a style guide, of course, but I think this wording at least doesn't seem to implicitly accept it as terminology. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
There has to be a reason for including Republic of Ireland in the "Southern Ireland" disambiguation page. It follows that the reason should be stated. A simple statement of fact does not confer "legitimacy" on the use of a term (I put the word in quotes because it's not used by legitimists of any sort, so I can't see why it possibly matters), and we shouldn't be looking for a way to change it to reflect an editor's point of view. Scolaire (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
There will never be an ideal with these things! Fair enough, I'll let it stand! Iveagh Gardens (talk) 21:19, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
The state is Ireland, not the Republic of Ireland.The Republic of Ireland is a reasonable description of the state but it is not the state and should not be referred to as the state. So either 'Ireland, a state sometimes referred to as "Southern Ireland"', or 'The Republic of Ireland which is sometimes referred to as "Southern Ireland"'. Dmcq (talk) 22:36, 19 September 2017 (UTC)