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Definitions / Boundaries
A fair enough account of the Southside. However as a southsider I think you should make it clear that although Terenure, Tallaght and Ballyfermot lie south of the liffy, they are in fact "northside plantations" (as they are also populated by riff-raff), and not typical southside suburbs. (posted by 18.104.22.168)
- Sorry - they're firmly in the geography of the southside! You'll just have to keep 'em. While you're at it, please explain Ballybrack, Sallynoggin, parts of Bray, Clondalkin, Dolphin's Barn, etc, etc. It's not all D4, y'know - Pete C ✍ 01:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
- If 'The Southside' is bounded to the west by the M50, then Tallaght can't be part of it. Shouldn't Tallaght be grouped with Blanchardstown and Clondalkin as 'West Dublin', anyway? AndrewH 12:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
- But the M50 is basically 'C'-shaped. If everything 'west' of it is west Dublin, then Bray is also in the west. That's kinda wacked. Anyways - Dublin's traditionally designated Northside and Southside according to the Liffey. Even that doesn't work well. Either way, everyone (myself included) is getting hung up on the geographical vs. the political/social. It's fun to watch! - Pete C ✍ 13:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC) (ex-Ballymun, now in County Cork)
- Pete, Bray is to the east of the M50 - it's not even to the west of either end of it (which I think is what you were saying. It should be evident enough to anyone that when we speak of somewhere being 'west of the M50', we mean west of the westernmost part of it, not west of the easternmost part of it. Anyway, I didn't say that everything west of it should be classed as west Dublin, since that would include, for example, Galway. What I said was that taking the wording of the article (that "South Dublin" is bounded to the North by the Liffey, and to the West and South by the M50), then you can't include Tallaght, which is outside of that boundary. AndrewH 13:51, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
- To say Terenure isn't posh is very untrue. --Anon
"The Southside has more museums, galleries, restaurants, theatres, plastic surgeries and has a higher level of graduates than the Northside."
Just tried to clear up some of the changing back and forth as regards what areas are included in the southside. Numerous people have put in and taken out references to Tallaght and Drimnagh and so on. While these areas are south of the river, they don't really fit in as regards the cultural caricature of the 'posh southside', which, considering our universal agreement that the Soutside is not a 'proper' geographical area, but rather a function of linguistic semiotics, we should all be able to agree that these two areas (for example) should be distinguished from the other listed suburbs. The only reason for including them in the main definition is that Northsiders want to think of the Southside as not being as posh as it thinks it is, and non-Dubliners might not know the cultural nuances. No one who is from Dublin could possibly be convinced that the impression in popular culture--be it right and wrong--would be that Tallaght and Foxrock have much in common.
Evidence Based on Usage?
I have always thought of the Southside as simply the area in County Dublin South of the Liffey. In the 1960s, when I first heard the term, Tallaght, Clondalkin, Neilstown, Lucan etc didn't exist, or were small rural villages. Using the non-geographical definition places like Howth and Malahide would be "Southside". Which they were certainly not regarded as, in any sense. Again, I live in Stepaside, which is to the West of the M50 but definitely part of the Southside.
So I would regard any definition which excluded Tallaght and its suburbs as a CHANGE in traditional usage, that is, as the term "Southside" was used in THIS part of the Southside for the past 40 years. - BF.
- and west by the M50 motorway <- A pov that somepeople hold to exclude less favourible areas , Southside is south of the liffy
- The stereotypical Southsider has a sophisticated and intellectual image <-Also pov many have a different image .
- Southside to be that area loosely bounded by the green-line LUAS and the DART < more pov to remove less favourible areas
(Gnevin 00:10, 11 February 2006 (UTC))
re. RV and pov
I see from your other entries that you should know something about Dublin. Surely it is not unreasonable to suggest that this entry should inform those not familiar with Ireland and Dublin what the banter of SOuthside/Northside really means? It is a term of oppobrium that is associated with snobbish attitudes, and whether or not there are poorer neighbourhoods south of the Liffey or north of it, the fact remains that these two colloquial terms are socio-economic in scoope, not geographical. Anyone who has spent time in Dublin knows this, those who haven't had that opportunity should be allowed to know that too. Boldymumbles 00:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- While i agree that to an extend these terms have socio-econmic roots the terms are boardly applied by many and often in a purely geograpic sence . Just because some consider certain areas of the southside to fulfil the socio-econmic meaning of southsiders. Many such as myself would apply them to all area's/ and people south of the liffy . So far your posts of this topic have failed to strike a balance between these two views . (Gnevin 00:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC))
Well done to the last 3-4 editors on this article, notably Sarah777 - I am surprised so many areas were missed. Although some of this comes back to the question of definition - when I was growing up, remoter "county" areas were not considered as part of the Southside / Northside thing (Malahide was a stretch, and Swords a special case, but Rush / Lusk / Donabate / Garristown, definitely not, and I think probably still not). And of course, this article has already seen attempts to "define out" Tallaght and others. And perhaps a "Westside" would now be logical but as a Dub still, I see no evidence that such a concept has come into being. It was subjective but I do think it is a pity someone took out the "definition discussion" paragraph.
I am also glad to see the new / "candidate" areas flagged as such. My one cross encounter with another editor was over two of these. I still don't know anyone (north or south of the river) who thinks of them as suburbs, and I really hope not to see a suburb with an estate agent name like "x-West" - but, as since August, I can live with them as "maybes."
The last-reversed edit served a useful purpose, I think, as otherwise a reader of the article might think the Soutside to be suburban only, whereas Northside and Southside definitely include the respective parts of the city centre. And given that these are included, I think we need to handle them in a certain way, as it is not feasible to make long lists of streets.
Sarah, could I humbly suggest that you might have missed that last editor's point? - he / she did not (unless I miss something) say that the south inner city (including Temple Bar) was not part of the Southside. And in reversing their work, you lost the Coombe, and sample streets. I will try to rework that edit so that a clear note of the southside inside the canal (including sample streets and districts) is made.
BTW, why does this article lack the "Features" list that the northside has? And on the other hand, is the notable people list useful to either North- or Southside, given that between them, the two articles encompass all Dubliners...
- Well, I have no real problem with "developer" names as you know - think of Dollymount. Only time will tell whether they will evolve into new recognised (by everyone) suburbs - but I'd say the arrival of railway and Luas stops bearing the names will copperfasten them. I could see how The Liberties is an area but wasn't sure why single streets were being listed not having been tuned in to the recent discussion. No sure where Northsiders draw their lines but I think it's fair to say that people living in all of county Dublin south of the Liffey self-identify as Southsiders and areas like Saggart, Rathcoole, Stepaside and Kilternan are now being swallowed up by the continuous built-up area. Besides the mountains and Newcastle there are no rural villages remaining on the Southside. Sarah777 (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, Dollymount is a strange one, and perhaps one day, we will all enjoy City/Parkwest too. The point on the vanishing of "villages" is exactly what I was wondering about, and I had a suspicion that it was so to the south, whereas it is very much not yet so for northside, though I think Donabate and Portrane, Rush, Lusk, etc., will be swallowed soon. SeoR (talk) 11:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Greystones is considered by many of its inhabitants as being "Southside" (and has been for a very long time) yet it is in County Wicklow. I'd say if we stray from a strict definition of "County Dublin south of the Liffey" we can avoid those sorts of complications. There doesn't need to be an exact parallel for the "Northside" which is much larger and less built-up. Sarah777 (talk) 11:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm. That does stretch it a bit - but then again, Southside was never a simple geographical thing - and Northside likewise. Which, especially given subjective flexibility, makes them a bit problemmatic for an encyclopedia, and yet it would be nonsensical to omit them. But yes, as one heads into Fingal (especially north, not so much northwest anymore), it really still feels like countryside (as do parts around Killiney and Rathfarnham but not much else in South County / DL-R). SeoR (talk) 11:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Mount Merrion and Merrion
Can someone with strong local knowledge add an article on Merrion (a couple of km from Mount Merrion) as a district, or has it been so far absorbed into Stillorgan as to be lost? On the other hand, Kilmacud is here. SeoR (talk) 08:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Merrion still exists and is a long way from Stillorgan - its between Ballsbridge and Booterstown. Kilmacud is odd as its "centre" is really in the Stillorgan shopping area; but the area to the west of the centre is clearly recognised locally as Kilmacud and the place in the photo may be the nearest thing to "Kilmacud Village" that there is. I'll do a stub on Merrion and get a picture of those famous gates. Sarah777 (talk) 11:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- That would be great, as many people I know are confused about the two Merrions, and even some people who live in Merrion seem to think it is somewhere else (though I think I was still sleepy when I mentioned Stillorgan, as that is probably the place with which Mount Merrion sometimes gets entangled). You put the finger on the issue with Kilmacud - and to be fair, it is probably more Stillorgan which has expanded. I look forward to yet more pictures (how big a traffic jam at the Gates, or perhaps another truck going through them??), and still hope to make my own pictures available on Commons some day... SeoR (talk) 11:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)