Talk:Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina

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Article as of 01.2012[edit]

I don't really know who wrote this article, but the way it is right now it is full of pro-Russian/-bolshevik bias. Take for example the question of the 1897 census. The data is simply posted without explaining that in the years between 1812 when the Russians first annexed Bessarabia and 1867, they brought in so many immigrants that the proportion of Moldovans/Romanians decreased from 86% to 56% (or 47.6% -- as claimed by this source in cyrillic characters that can't be read by a majority of people reading the English Wikipedia). I think this article deserves attention from some Romanian editors as well. Octavian8 (talk) 16:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Mea culpa: I identified the source as reliable and translated the section from Russian Wikipedia, thanks for adding further info on the censuses. I agree that there are problems with the article, in particular, i disagree with the recent revert by Anonimu, which removed both unsourced paragraphs as well as sourced ones. I would appreciate if anyone dug into the issue and restored suitable passages. Estlandia (dialogue) 09:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't know what type of agenda this user is following with his edits. Seems that deleting referenced text that does not suit him is his trademark. Octavian8 (talk) 12:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
That user may have deleted it because the reference is no longer available. However, it was archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20070930153621/http://www.ziua.ro/prt.php?id=213493&data=2006-12-30
That edit seems to have just moved things around. After two years with "citation needed" tag, that user deleted the passage. So the passage should go back in, with the archived reference, but the article has been rearranged so the edit can't just be reverted.

2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Things that could possibly be added back in, just copying the text:

Anti-Soviet resistance[edit]

File:28iunie1940.GIF
This flag was symbolically used by the Moldavian passive underground resistance during 1945-1989[1]

That file is now at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moldavian_passive_underground_resistance_flag.gif

Mention of Răzeni Massacre but the same text is on that page, merged in 2012.

The material removed after two years with citation needed tag, with original reference but needs link replaced with archived version:

These figures do not include the people shot on the spot who refused to flee in June 1940, for example many of the administration officials.

In addition, a large number of people were arrested by NKVD and disappeared. Up to one thousand corpses were discovered after the retreat of the Soviets in 1941 in the cellars, courtyards and wells of the NKVD headquarters in the county centers, including 450 corpses in Chişinau, mostly of priests, university and high school students, and railroad workers.[2] (See also NKVD prisoner massacres.)

In April–August 1943, in Tatarka, near Odessa, a mass common grave was discovered on a lot of 1,000 sq. meters. 42 separate common graves of several dozen bodies each were identified, containing ca. 3,500 bodies, of which 516 were exhumed, studied, and buried in cemetery before the region became a front line. Among the dead were persons arrested in the Moldavian ASSR in 1938-1940, and in Bessarabia and northern Bukovina in 1940-1941.[2]

A little bit silly to remove something when it's "unsourced" yet leave an entire article which deals with that subject on Wikipedia. (Tatarka common graves). Removed:

In the wake of the Jassy-Kishinev Operation several prisoner camps were created, including in Chişinău and Bălţi. In the latter city, the NKVD organized a smaller regular camp, and a larger concentration camp, which contained some 45,000 prisoners,[citation needed] including 35 to 40 thousand soldiers of the Romanian Army (many of which were originally from Bessarabia and Bukovina) and Romanian civilians, 5,000 German POWs, and 5,000 Hungarian, Italian, and Czech POWs fighting for the Axis. The harsh food and hygiene conditions in the camp meant the survival of only the fittest prisoners in the winter of 1944-1945, to be sent to NKVD POW camps in the interior of USSR. The common graves of many thousands of perished in the Bălţi prisoner camp were uncovered after the fall of the Soviet system, until which time the Soviets kept the area of the former camp outside landscape development.

History_of_Bălți#World_War_II_period describes the camp, and mentions that information about it was suppressed, which would explain why not enough about it is commonly known for an editor to have created an article for it (though many concentration camps, in Europe and other regions, probably don't have articles). But this might be better put in another article about events after Germany attacked the USSR.

Removed, not sure if should be included somewhere:

These people were taken during the night; sometimes whole families with children were uprooted. They had to be ready within one hour, and were transported to Siberia or Eastern Kazakhstan, in overcrowded railway cars, for four to six weeks, with no sanitation and very little food.

After Stalin's death in 1953, the deportees were allowed to return to Moldova, and around half chose to do so.

Smaller size deportations often targeted the inhabitants of the cities, as well as the areas covered by anti-Soviet movements during 1945-1950, i.e. Bukovina, Herţa region, as well as Orhei, Bălţi and Soroca counties.[3]

According to a document signed by Ivan Serov, Deputy Minister of Interior of the USSR, on 1 July 1953, 46,616 deportees from Moldavian SSR were reported in localities with special regime (spetsposeleniya) in Russian SFSR and Kazakhstan, of which 10,387 were deported in 1941 (including 1,780 children), and 36,147 - in 1949 (including 10,447 children).[4] In the meantime (1940/41-1953), many of the deported have died because of harsh transportation, detention and climate conditions, disease, and malnutrition.[5]

Food requisitions, famine, and collectivisation[edit]

During 1946-1947, 216,000 people died on hunger on the territory of the Moldavian SSR, provoked by the quasi-total food requisitions by the Soviets from the farmers' households "for the needs of the state", by poor harvest, and by absence of a large number of local males, conscripted into the Soviet Army. Several thousand more starved in Southern Bessarabia.

Forced labor[edit]

Thousands were mobilized into work camps (but at least they were formally, although very little, paid), and sent far away through the Soviet Union. In 1940 alone there were 56,365 such.

Partially removed in that edit, but what was kept is no longer in the current article:

Although, not targeting Romanians as an ethnic group, but rather the pre-Soviet civil society as a political class, the Soviet occupation resulted in an anti-Romanian Soviet politicide and ethnic cleansing of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina.[citation needed] Between 1940 and 1941, 300,000 Romanians were persecuted, conscripted into forced labor camps, or deported with the entire family, of whom 57,000 were killed (not counting those died in the Gulag).[6] These policies also continued from 1944 until 1956, after which they were reduced to isolated cases.

According to some sources, in total throughout the duration of the USSR, around 2,344,000 people originally from Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, and the former Moldavian ASSR were victims of arrests, political persecution, deportation, forced labour, of whom 703,000 perished.[7][8] The latter number includes the 298,500 victims of the 1946-47 famine, and an estimation of 100,000 of perished POWs which were locals. The remainder are victims of executions, massacres, arrested perished in Gulag, and deportees died.

These policies mostly targeted the elites of Bessarabians and Bukovinains which did not leave for Romania in 1940 and 1944–1945, including former teachers, doctors, clergymen, lawyers, policemen and soldiers, larger landowners (nobility and richer peasants, called by the Soviets kulaks), members of political parties (including former members of the clandestine Communist Party of Romania), as well as those who expressed any kind of dissent, which altogether constituted a significant part of the population and included the majority of the educated population, the bearers of Romanian culture. However, they were by no means restricted to ethnic Romanians, as many thousand ethnic Ukrainians, Russians, Jews who inhabited the region before 1940 were also deported en masse together with local Romanians on social and political grounds. Only in northern Bukovina, the persecutions resulted in a disproportionate number of ethnic Romanian victims. However, this could be also explained by the social nature of villages in the region, which rejected Soviet social tactics, and by local Ukrainians keeping a low profile to avoid themselves persecution.

A large block of direct quotes, "Excerpts from Soviet-Nazi diplomatic exchanges on 23–27 June 1940" were removed. "expects the German Reich Government at the same time urgently to advise the Rumanian Government in Bucharest to comply with the Soviet demands, since war would otherwise be unavoidable." This is interesting in relation to the negotiations for the Soviet Union to join the Axis powers. This quote makes it seem that it was the Soviet Union, not Germany or Italy, who came up with the reason "in order to avoid war". In fact war did happen, and Machiavelli advised that... "The Romans never allowed a trouble spot to remain simply to avoid going to war over it, because they knew that wars don't just go away, they are only postponed to someone else's advantage."

This article currently says that the Soviet Union said (source is in Romanian) "the international situation that was created requires the rapid solution of the items inherited from the past, in order to fix the basis of a solid peace between countries". "international situation" could mean "Germany is at war with the UK", yet if the Soviet Union was willing to go to war with Romania it could conceivably do so with Germany in the future, even if it only happened after various political leaders died. War didn't guarantee that Germany would become stronger, but maybe due to luck, France lost and so Germany did. The UK's navy could enforce a blockade, but could not conquer Germany, so it was reasonable to think defeating the Soviet Union could be easier. If Germany had invaded the UK and won, it would have been weaker in the short term, but with no major opponents left in Europe it would have posed an even greater threat to the Soviet Union in the long term. Maybe Germany, or Italy, would have advised Romania to withdraw even if the Soviet Union hadn't said it expected Germany to do so, but that communication may have meant that the later negotiations regarding the Soviet Union joining the Axis powers virtually ensured that Germany would attack it. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 00:53, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits by Anonimu[edit]

Anonimu is pushing a heavilly pro-soviet narrative. Can we get either a second editor to provide some balance, or something? It's pretty well-known that the Soviets weren't benevolent liberators whose only aim was to better the world. 65.209.62.115 (talk) 10:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Done. "Force the border" is confusing though, I had to read the other article to understand what it meant. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 19:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
The edit was reverted. Although I left a comment on the user's talk page, I am not reverting the change again (despite that Wikipedia's '3 revert rule' would benefit the original editor of a change as their first action does not count as a reversion, forcing discussion). The article used for many of the other massacres is in Romanian and I am too lazy to read it, and the other ~8 references are also in Romanian. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 22:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Attacks during withdrawal after ultimatum[edit]

June_1940_Soviet_Ultimatum#Romanian_withdrawal doesn't mention these. Bessarabia#World_War_II says "The casualties reported by the Romanian Army during those seven days consisted of 356 officers and 42,876 soldiers dead or missing.", though it gives the wrong page number (actually page 242). More info, from page 243~245 of the same book/document: Google Translate

Baidu Translate also works though can't include the text in the URL so you have to copy from the first link. Not pasting it here because most users would have to visit another site anyway due to not speaking Romanian, so it would just make discussion harder.

(I found that when translating, you have to change certain characters that show up incorrectly when copied and pasted. Easily done with find/replace all.)

"In Sea of ​​Azov, our troops were retreating temporarily left several officers and soldiers wounded. When they resumed their advance found mutilated terribly wounded. People who could have saved their gave the last sigh in agony. They were gouged out his eyes, they were cut tongue, nose, ears."

The figures on page 242 only say "killed or missing", while also giving a different figure for captured, but this part makes it clear that there were definitely many killed. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 19:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 12:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

Haha, why "Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina" but "Union of Bessarabia with Romania"? Need to change both articles to common title - occupation or union. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.25.53.138 (talk) 07:23, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

  1. ^ Alexandru Usatiuc-Bulgăr
  2. ^ a b (Romanian) Victor Roncea, "Un Katyn românesc: Crimele uitate ale comunismului", Ziua, 30 December 2006
  3. ^ Counties were reformed into raions in 1948.
  4. ^ Istoria Stalinskogo Gulaga, vol. 5, p. 715 cf. Report p. 755
  5. ^ Report, p. 755
  6. ^ R. J. Rummel, Table 6.A. 5,104,000 victims during the pre-World War II period: sources, calculations and estimates, Freedom, Democracy, Peace; Power, Democide, and War, University of Hawaii.
  7. ^ R. J. Rummel, Table 7.A. 13,053,000 victims during World War II: sources, calculations and estimates, op.cit.
  8. ^ R. J. Rummel, Table 8.A. 15,6133,000 victims during the Postwar and Stalin's twilight period: Soviet murder: sources, calculations and estimates, op.cit.