Talk:St Albans

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city vs. City[edit]

The articles have shown some confusion between the city of St Albans and the wider City of St Albans district. This map should held make the distinction clearer:

  1. St Albans: this article relates to the unparished area commonly known as the city of St Albans that was the entirety of the city before 1974
  2. City of St Albans: this article relates to the non-metropolitan district that has official city status and is governed by St Albans City Council, containing nine civil parishes (Harpenden, Colney Heath, Harpenden Rural, London Colney, Redbourn, St Michael, St Stephen, Sandridge and Wheathampstead) and St Albans unparished area.

It is wrong, for example, to present statistics, status details or emblems, twinning etc. of one entity as if it relates to the other. MRSC (talk) 14:46, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Arms[edit]

User:NebY - Per Civic Heraldry of England and Wales, where the city arms are given as azure a saltire or (in layman's terms, a golden saltire on a blue field). Zacwill16 (talk) 14:42, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Those are the arms of St Albans City and District Council, as Robert Young's webpage says (though on the face of it civicheraldry.co.uk does not qualify as a reliable source for Wikipedia articles). We already show them at City of St Albans and provide City and District of St Albans as a redirect to that page. They are not the arms of St Albans. NebY (talk) 15:43, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Though you are right that in a strict technical sense the arms belong to the City and District Council, it is somewhat obtuse to act like they are not also the arms of the city. It is established that towns, cities, etc. use the arms of their governing authority. For instance, these arms are really those of the Queen of the United Kingdom, and yet they are commonly regarded as the arms of the United Kingdom itself, and are described as such on Wikipedia. Zacwill16 (talk) 16:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Where are the royal arms described as the arms of the country? We try to avoid doing that (see for example United Kingdom and Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom and indeed, there are plenty of editors here who are sticklers for the proprieties of heraldry. We do tend to show the arms of a council on the page of that council's administrative area, quite wrongly in the view of some, but not on the pages of the components of that administrative area. There may be some deviations from this but other stuff exists is an argument that is treated with great caution on Wikipedia. NebY (talk) 16:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
St Albans is hardly just a component of the administrative area; it's the main part. And anyway, prior to being used by the modern council, the arms had been used by the city since the Middle Ages. I propose a compromise: would it be acceptable if the arms were re-added, but with the caption changed to "Arms of St Albans City Council"? Zacwill16 (talk) 16:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
I see where you going with this - it would need the full name of the council and would be the council's arms rather than the flag you presented earlier - but there's no point. St Albans as such doesn't have a coat of arms and it's not our job to correct that or make out that it does. It's not a big deal - there are many articles here about towns and cities which don't show arms. We don't put everything about the subject into the infobox; it's a brief attempt to communicate key points to the reader "at-a-glance" and a coat of arms, which already communicates little to most readers, is even less helpful if it has to be hedged around with an explanation that it's not really the arms of the article's subject. NebY (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't agree that there's "no point". The arms are the principal emblem of the city, and every article on a country or major city seems to include its arms in the infobox. I'm aware that many town and city articles don't include them, which I think a shame, and one of Wikipedia's many failings. As to your point about the arms being "hedged in", a lengthy explanation of whom the arms legally belong to is hardly necessary; like I said, "Arms of the City Council" would get the point across fine. Zacwill16 (talk) 19:11, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
No, that would be misleading. As for your other points, the idea that arms constitute significant information is not one that is commonly shared. I'm not sure what countries and major cities have to do with St Albans but as you say, we do not automatically include arms on towns and cities, even when they have them. You may consider that a failing. NebY (talk) 21:53, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
How is it misleading to refer to the arms as those of the city council? One finds this in the articles on Coventry, Blackpool, Watford, etc. And I think the reason town articles don't include the arms is either a) no good illustration of them exists on Wikimedia Commons, or b) no one has bothered to add them, rather than there being a deliberate decision to exclude them. Zacwill16 (talk) 22:07, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
They are the arms of St Albans City and District Council. We've now come full circle. Enough. NebY (talk) 22:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
...which is the same thing as St Albans City Council. They are different names for the same body. See the article, which uses both names indiscriminately. Zacwill16 (talk) 22:17, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm with NebY on this. The arms are the local authority's arms and the name of the LA, from their website, is "St Albans City & District Council", St Albans City Council does not exist and the other article should be amended to reflect the correct name. Wilmot1 (talk) 07:15, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @NebY: and @Zacwill16: - you are both getting into WP:EW territory. Please think carefully before reverting again. Suggest raising issue at the WP that covers heraldry/vexillology. Mjroots (talk) 18:08, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I've posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#Infobox arms, inviting editors to join this discussion. NebY (talk) 18:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Merge proposal[edit]

See discussion here. Pelarmian (talk) 23:05, 6 March 2016 (UTC)