Talk:Stoicism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Good article Stoicism has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
January 31, 2011 Good article nominee Listed

See also Logotherapy[edit]

Would it be appropriate to add a link to Logotherapy? Although Logotherapy is nothing to do with Greek philosophy, it is about bearing up to suffering or misfortune in a similar way. 92.15.29.194 (talk) 19:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Unless there's a documented connection between Stoicism and Logotherapy, I don't see why such a wikilink would be desirable. Anarchangel23 (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Quotations and recent template addition[edit]

I notice that the quotations section has been given a Copy to Wikiquote template. Other examples of pages with this template are List_of_political_catch_phrases and Quotations_by_Pablo_Picasso, which appear to be articles purely for the purpose of gathering quotations under a given theme.
But the quotations in this article serve a very different and specific purpose, namely to illustrate the subject of the article without having to paraphrase and reference each and every tenet within these quotations. That this list has survived and been improved several times for over three years should be some indication that it is valuable. Indeed, the current short and select list is infinitely better than what would become many dense paragraphs of paraphrased and expanded text stating (hopefully) the same beliefs. Why use the words of a wiki editor when, invariably, the philosophers' original words are both concise and (by definition) accurate? I have thus removed the template from this page. I will this evening link the references for each quotation to WikiSource, however. Feel free to disagree with this solution below :) 188.126.85.47 (talk) 19:08, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Stoicism/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: --Tea with toast (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

I will be reviewing this page over the next few days. From my brief overview, it looks like some copy editing may be needed. I would encourage interested editors to comb through the text and fix any grammatical errors and make sure that the paragraphs are not needlessly too long and center around a topic sentence. I will be looking at these things in my review.--Tea with toast (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Problems needing to be addressed[edit]

Great work with the article thus far! I have enjoyed reading it. However, there are several details that need to be attended to before I can pass this article. I will place this article "on hold" and allow a week or so for these changes to be made. Happy editing! --Tea with toast (talk) 15:35, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Quotations[edit]

As per Wikipedia guidelines: "Attribution should be provided in the text of the article, not exclusively in a footnote or citation. A reader should not have to follow a footnote to learn whose words a quote is."

Quotations given in the "Sotic logic" and "Stoic physics and cosmology" do not give proper attribute in the text (though I am glad to see that they have proper footnotes). See the quote given in the "Spiritual exercise" subsection – it uses proper attribution. Please change the other quotations to be in a similar fashion.

References[edit]

Several problems with references need to be addressed before I can pass this article.

  • Items in the "Further readings" section should be in alphabetical order with the author's last name given first. (However, philosophers such as "Marcus Aurelius" can be kept as is.)
  • References 9, 21 and 23 need full citation with publisher, year published, and ISBN if possible.
  • References 11 and 12 need full citation; however, I am also questioning if they are reliable sources, since it appears to me that they may be self-published. Please justify their use.
  • References 6, 7, and 8 also need full citation; however, I would recommend placing the full citation in the "Primary Sources" subsection and leaving the footnotes as they are now.

Please refer to Wikipedia guidelines about citations for more help on this.

Thank you for undertaking this review; I have addressed some of the citation issues you have raised if you would care to look over the updated version of the article. Best, Skomorokh 16:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
Great work! --Tea with toast (talk) 04:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Final review[edit]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Spiritual Exercises[edit]

The section on spiritual exercises makes no mention of Epictetus but only Marcus Aurelius but the core ideas of the Meditations can be found in Epictetus. Any comments from editors? Oxford73 (talk) 05:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Very big problem with the article's lead[edit]

Someone stuck massive quotes from Seneca in the lead for no apparent reason. I'm not a regular editor at all so I hesitate to do a full revert to an earlier version but this is obviousely not of good article quality if someone does not — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.142.249 (talk) 10:37, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

In "The stoics believed..." I would not use "believed" it is too close to religion. "Taught," "thought," or "propounded" I think would be closer to the fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.248.0.70 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Good suggestion. I've replaced it with "propounded". - M0rphzone (talk) 07:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Some new stoics? maybe some of their lifestyle not only theory?[edit]

sorry for my bad english but my reading or stoics are more like a lifestyle choice so should you not add some new people that are close too stoic thinker about live your life (on your own?)Paul Rabinow ,Michel Foucault, some of the post anarchist thinkers ? maybe some modern examples of stoics today ? survivalists? digital nomads( folks who only have a backpack a wifi pda and ebooks and have a credit card and a travel guide) ? hobos/voluntary homeless ? 82.147.33.187 (talk) 14:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)murakami

Stoicism Navigation Template[edit]

Someone has created a navigation box template for Stoicism but I notice this article doesn't include it. IMHO, it could really use a navbox, though. Template talk:Stoicism

Isn't it good enough to incorporate? I'd be happy to do a bit more work on it, if that helps. HypnoSynthesis (talk) 20:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry! Realise now the navbar is in use but at the bottom of the page. Wouldn't it be better to have one of the ones that appear at the top, so that it's more visible?HypnoSynthesis (talk) 03:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Sure, if you'd like you can create a template that displays topics and links as a sidebar. If you do create one, try to add/incorporate topics/links not covered by the multiple navbars on the bottom. - M0rphzone (talk) 07:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

TURN AROUND ITS A SNAKE HABITAT! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.232.157.79 (talk) 17:54, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps a small mistake?[edit]

I'm not sure but on the ability to judge in the epistemology section of the article, the greek version is (συγκατάθεσις, synkatathesis). If I read it correctly, συγκατάθεσις would be transcribed as sygkatathesis. I believe, thus, that it should be written συνκατάθεσις instead, replacing the "γ" with a "ν". I did not correct the word because I am not a greek specialist. Someone might have to check this out.

Edit Warring on External Linking to "Tao of Dirt" site[edit]

It is always disheartening to see two editors completely ignore the rules here against edit warring, and the three revert rule. Because an editor happens to be right (or believes themself to be right) is no excuse for edit warring. For reference, see WP:3RR

That said, although I find the link in question to be interesting, it does not appear to me to be of the quality required for external linking here (see WP:LINKSTOAVOID)

These "letters"... I counted the occurrences of the word "stoic" or "stoicism" on all the available letters, and the word appeared three times in 26 letters. The letters provide the author's ruminations, but are they a uniquer resource? One of the standards for external linking is that it provides a "unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article." as per WP:LINKSTOAVOID.

They may be writings by a Stoic, and I enjoyed reading them, but is this Stoic in some way notable beyond his one book? Is the link (the "letters") somehow a unique resource as required? I don't believe they are. Marteau (talk) 16:43, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


How many times does Seneca use the word "stoicism" in his collected letters? Think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lexiblity (talkcontribs) 20:02, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


To Lexiblity: regarding your repeated attempts to insert a link to the “Tao of Dirt”

1) The Tao of Dirt is a blog. As per WP:LINKSTOAVOID Wikipedia does not link to “Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority. “ The author of this blog, Dmitri Mandaliev, does not appear to be a “recognized authority”. Note that “recognized authority” in this context requires that the individual meets Wikipedia's notability criteria (see WP:NOTE). Mr Mandaliev does not appear to meet this criteria; if you believe he does, please discuss. <-- the Exeter blog is...also a blog. Given that the majority of posts on that blog are excerpts from books written by "mere stoics who walk the earth today" which include affiliate links to those books, I'm not sure you can hold that blog up to the same scrutiny.

2) There is no basis for inclusion as per WP:ELYES or WP:ELMAYBE. If a site includes information directly pertinent to the subject of the article, a link might be appropriate. "Tao of Dirt” does not seem to be about Stoicism per se, but only claims to be written by a Stoic. That is insufficient reason to include a link from the Stoicism article. There are thousands of stoics walking the earth today, but we don't link to their blogs here. yes you do, see above

3) Your account seems to be a WP:SPA (single purpose account) and you seem to not be here to help build an encylopedia WP:NOTHERE, but your only purpose here seems to be to get this link included. Another editor suspects you desire this link to appear because it includes a sales pitch for a book. I share that suspicion. <-- I am not responsible for your suspicions. The exeter blog also links to that book, and many others which no doubt include amazon affiliate tags for sales. Does that mean that the Exeter blog is nothing but a sales affiliate ploy? Gentlemen, come now.

You have attempted to insert this link eight times, and seven times it has been reverted by a bot, by another editor, or by me. You need to discuss this issue on the talk page, and not just blindly revert. Marteau (talk) 15:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

To Marteau: See my responses above. Also: As you recently removed the link only after my making a comment on this page, it's obvious that you are not removing the link because of WP standards, but because this issue has become personal for you. There are several other links in the list which do not meet the stringent requirements that you outline above. As I've stated, there are more similarities between Dmitri's blog and some that you continue to link to. .

Regarding the status of my account. What business is it of yours or anyone else why I have an account on wikipedia? So what if I have not been so inclined to make a contribution. No one else had added the link to his page, so I have.Lexiblity (talk)

To Lexiblity: 1) Do not intersperse comments within another editor's comments. That is bad form. Add comments to the end.

2) Whether or not "The exeter blog" is linked here, or is a blog, is irrelevant to the point at hand, which is Tao of Dirt. See WP:OTHERSTUFF. I am not addressing "the exeter blog" now, I am addressing Tao of Dirt now. I do not tend to multi-task.

3) The link is in dispute. Before you re-add it, you must obtain consensus as per WP:ELBURDEN. If you are not aware of what "concensus" is please review WP:CON

4) You quoted "mere stoics who walk the earth today". I did not use the term "mere". Misquoting is bad form.

5) Users with single purpose accounts (WP:SPA) naturally receive added attention and their actions are naturally more scrutinized, particularly when they violate Wikipedia conventions and insist on adding links to blogs only indirectly relevant to the article by non-notable persons which happen to also be peddling a self-published paperback.

... and most importantly,

6) According to WP:LINKSTOAVOID blogs cannot be linked unless it is written by an authority. Are you claiming Mr. Mendaliev is an authority? Marteau (talk) 13:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

To Lexiblity: I've reverted the link again, because I agree with @Marteau:. Please consider having a look at WP:LINKSTOAVOID and WP:BURDEN, and please don't insert the link again unless and until further discussion here on the talk page leads to a consensus to add it. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

FYI An Article in the NY Times[edit]

In case this has not already been noticed, I thought I would pass along the link to an article in the Times on Stoicism. I have no idea if it is in any way likely to be useful to the article as this is a subject outside of my competence, but I hope it helps. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Could anyone explain the following sentence at the head of the article?[edit]

The Stoics taught that destructive emotions resulted from errors in judgment, and the active relationship between cosmic determinism and human freedom, and the belief that it is virtuous to maintain a will (called prohairesis) that is in accord with nature

I am not criticizing the meaning of the sentence, but it *is* hard to decipher its meaning.

What is attempted communicated here? That Stoics believed that destructive emotions resulted from errors in judgement, period? Because then the second and third part of the sentence appear malformed/incomplete: "and the active relationship between cosmic determinism and human freedom, and the belief that ..."

If we instead interpret it like that Stoics taught that destuctive emotions resulted from 1) errors in judgment and 2) active relationship ... and 3) belief that ..., then the sentence does not appear to be fully correctly formed either.

English is not my native language, but am I onto something here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.166.163 (talk) 19:56, 19 March 2016 (UTC)