Talk:Submarine sandwich/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Advertising?

Does Wikepedia really have to advertise Quizno's by using their picture for the archetypal submarine sandwich? That seems a little crass and commercial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.227.239 (talk) 19:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Dagwood sandwich

Is the Dagwood really a submarine sandwich? The kind Dagwood is known for in Blondie are not submarine sandwiches. --Furrykef 13:09, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A Dagwood is not a submarine sandwich by any stretch of the imagination. Sub sandwiches are long, while Dagwood sandwiches are tall. -Branddobbe 09:38, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
I agree, and removed Dagwood from the list. Dagwood sandwich was also a redirect here, and I changed it to go to sandwich instead. I also removed Cuban sandwich, which doesn't much resemble a submarine. -- Coneslayer 2005 June 30 19:01 (UTC)

Regional names

I think this is too specific of a subway-naming incident! You can't just go naming sandwiches from your town deli and get away with it on the wiki!

This category is Regional Names! Williamsport is the major city in the north central region of Pennsylvania. Toasted subs in this region of PA are known as "Cosmos." That is why I added cosmo to the list of regional names. Dincher 22:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Dincher - Cosmo Eater

williamsport is not a major city.
I live in NJ and I've never in my life heard someone call a sub a 'bomber' or 'zep'...whoever put this list together needs to stop looking up names from a book of slang from the 20s
Well, you could get around more or, like me, do some research. Check out the American Heritage Dictionary under submarine; it has a long Regional Note that lists various names for the sandwich: upstate NY, bomber; downstate NY, wedge; Delaware Valley & South NJ, hoagie; New England, grinder; Miami, Cuban sandwich; Maine, Italian sandwich; New Orleans, poor boy. Submarine, sub, and hero are "widespread, not assignable to any particular region." The definition for zep says "Chiefly New Jersey."--BillFlis 19:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I found the above in my old (1994) AHD on CD-ROM, but here's a more recent version online [1] and on the zep [2]. If you did find any of these terms in a book of slang from the '20s, that would be very interesting as historical background; a citation would be appreciated! And if you yourself happen to be a World's Foremost Authority on All Things New Jersical, it would help if you sign your messages with your real name, so we would, like, know.--BillFlis 21:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I grew up in NJ and have only heard "sub" and "hoagie." Seems like folks north of the Mercer/Monmouth division prefer sub while folks south of there prefer hoagie. Sometimes "grinder" comes out, but it categorically refers to baked hoagies. I have never heard "zep" used. Ever. I would definitely question any source claiming that "zep" is commonly used anywhere in NJ.
The reason I focus on "zep" is because a "zep" is a very specific sandwich native to Norristown PA that always comes on a round roll (unless requested otherwise) with cooked salami, provolone, tomato, onion, oil and spices. The roll usually comes from the Conshohocken Italian Bakery. I was not that suprised to see zep mentioned in conjuntion with sumbarine sandwiches (local legend claims that the zep was intended to be a less expensive alternative to the hoagie), but I was quite surprised to see it listed as NJ slang.
Personally, I think the zep is unique enough that I would love to make a separate article for it, but thus far I haven't been able to find much reference material. Jzerocsk 21:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This ref [3] says "These names are not distributed in a pattern similar to that of other regional words because their use depends on the business and marketing enterprise of the people who create the sandwiches and sell them." In other words, any sandwich shopowner can call his sandwich anything he wants, so it's kind of hopeless to go by personal experience. Guy moves from Philly to Hong Kong, he's still gonna sell "hoagies."--BillFlis 15:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
That being the case...shouldn't someone somewhere actually be calling it a Zep? Either a transplant from NJ living somewhere else selling Zeps, or a well-known Zep shop somewhere in NJ. Googling for "Zep Shop" only really yielded references to a Zep shop in Phoenixville, PA. They are Norristown transplants selling the Norristown Zep, though. Googling for "Italian Zep" which ought to ferret out some sandwich shop that calls their hoagie a Zep only seems to conclusively point to Yale and MIT and a later reference to another sandwich shop in Phoenixville that is selling Norristown Zeps. I tried to guess where in NJ someone might call a hoagie a zep and the only logical answer that comes to mind is Lakehurst/Manchester, but I can't find any references. I've tried a variety of different searches, but I just cannot find anyone anywhere that admits to it.
I think at this point it's tough to make a conclusive case. Nonetheless, it's just weird that it seems like a lot of resources agree that somewhere people are calling their subs Zeps, yet it seems hard to find anyone that actually does. I'm starting to wonder if it's either no longer used or was once listed erroneously and now other sources are simply repeating the already incorrect information. Jzerocsk 18:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I've heard them called zeps in northern N.J. and eastern PA but more as a throw-away slang term in reference to fried dough with powdered sugar, most often served at church bazaars and religious festivals as a dessert. I would attribute the probable etymology to a shortened version of German zeppelin (like the blimp) or Italian zeppole/zeppoli (a well-known food treat) based on those significant immigrant populations of the areas cited.Rpallotta
Can you point to any source where we can actually see an example of someone calling their hoagie a "zep?" I suspect anyone you heard in Eastern PA using the term is talking about the "other" sandwich from Norristown (see above). I still have not seen any examples of a Jerseyan using the word.
Regarding the etymology, there is so little similarity between fried dough balls (zeppolli) and hoagies, that I can't imagine the two are related at all. Being short for zeppelin is a little more believable since a hoagie is roughly shaped like a zeppelin. However without a source, it's still just original research and should be removed from the article. To be honest, until we can actually find someone who calls them zeps, we'll probably never be able to truly know the origin. --Jzerocsk 22:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, good points and I agree though similar, zeppoli is probably not the etymology. But I'm reluctant to delete the zeps or zeppelin reference since I didn't place the entry. Being new to this I'm unsure of the Wikipedia protocols in such cases... Rpallotta
i'm just gonna say that i've lived in conshohocken, a town just outside philly all my life, and have always known a zep to be a sandwich similar to a hoagie but served on a round roll usually without lettuce. I have been able to go into any area in south eastern PA or south jersey and order a zep and get exactly that, although everyone i've ever talked to seems to agree that the sandwich originated somewhere in norristown —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.196.3 (talk) 21:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

"Zep" is a regionalism of southeast Pennsylvannia, probably originating in Norristown. See its entry in the forthcoming Vol. 5 of the Dictionary of American Regional English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.219.37.84 (talk) 01:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

"Zep" short for zeppelin, another word for blimp, which also gave us the name "Blimpie" for these types of sandwiches. Regardless, I've seen them called Zeps, Subs, and Heroes, in Brooklyn, so it is a term use for the sandwich. 24.190.34.219 (talk) 15:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

MERGE

Should information from Hero sandwich and Hoagie be merged with this article? --Blue387 07:30, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The hoagie article is now pretty long, and has lots of info particular to the Philadelphia sandwich. I'd leave that where it is.--BillFlis 19:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd keep these entries separate. And what would interest me is where the name hero came from. I've been unable to pin that down despite trying.Vgiannini 03:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I've always assumed "hero" was a misspelling of "gyro", which is (sort of) pronounced like it begins with an h. Also, without taking a stand as to whether heroes can be called zeppelins or zeps: zeppoles are definitely a fried Italian pastry (very similar to beignets or funnel cakes).Jon1249 18:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Been up for 30 months now. Taking down. Jmlk17 03:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't necessarily dissagree with your speculation of the term "hero" stemming from a misspelling of gyro, although I have always had a theory of my own. If you presume the term submarine was derived from the ship builders around New England, it could be a possibility that those ironworkers and or submarines were considered hero's during a major war and it was another way to honor those war hero's.
no way is hero a corruption of gyro. for one thing the name hero predates gyro by several decades. gyros weren't even introduced to the unites states until the late 60's. They're very different sandwiches with very different ethnic roots, there is nothing to link the two. plus only hyper-corrective jerks leave of the "dʒ" sound =P Gyrophant (talk) 19:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

origin

Should say something about the origin of the term.

The story about submarine workers inventing the term sounds suspiciously like folk etymology. A citation might make me believe it, but it would have to be pretty authoritative. The sandwich looks enough like a submarine for anyone to make the association, without any special expertise in undersea warfare. Did zeppelin workers come up with "zep"? Did the submarine workers in the torpedo room come up with "torpedo"? Was the whole thing inspired by a test cruise to the Sandwich Islands? I think not! In fact, I clearly remember Mom feeding me one of these in my highchair when I was about one and a half years old, saying, "Here's comes the zeppelin, open the hangar!"--BillFlis 19:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, I went ahead and removed the following, which I could verify nowhere, and which I strongly suspect is a hoax. On the contrary, the numerous references I did find (see any dictionary, for example) indicate that the sandwich simply takes its name from its shape.--BillFlis 12:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 The 'submarine' moniker originated in Groton, Connecticut among employees of the Electric Boat Corporation, a manufacturer of actual submarines, on the basis of the sandwich's shape, which is similar to that of one of the submersible boats and gained broader usage through the Subway sandwich chain based in nearby Milford, Connecticut.
Now this I like: "In 1898 the first submarine sandwich was introduced, but the company went under." [4]--BillFlis 12:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The Electric Boat Company in CT was, indeed, started in 1898. 65.1.21.217 10:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

dictionary.reference.com[5] believe that etymology.

But that page is written so poorly, with such bad grammar and style, it makes me really doubt it!--BillFlis 14:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added a version of the Groton legend. We probably won't ever know the true etymology but there are certainly legends which are sufficiently notable to report on. –Shoaler (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The Electric Boat article says the co. started in 1899. Are you saying that needs fixing? Also, I think you need a citation to include the legend; otherwise, I won't believe that it's really a legend but just something that somebody made up but you happen to believe. One person's belief in something does not make it a legend; many people have to believe it. Also, how can you be sure that it's not true? If it's true, it's wrong to call it a legend.--BillFlis 11:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Grinder

I just consumed what was probably my 5,000th New England grinder

Perhaps you should pull away from the table now. 206.105.184.21 17:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

, and none of them have had taco meat anywhere near them. "Grinder" is 100% interchangeable with "Sub" in these parts.

I don't doubt that in the other referenced locations they contain taco meat, but to include N.E. in that description is incredibly false. I'm not sure how that should be edited, but it should be. I don't want prospective vacationers to shy away from my area due to false concepts of turkey and taco sandwiches. 69.24.32.162 16:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to say that I have lived in MA my whole life and I have never heard anyone refere to a sub as a grinder in any area other than in print as Submarines/Grinders or Sub/Grinders in maybe one or 2 places its been so long I don't even remember. It seems like a really oudated term to me, why even bother arguing about it? :Bushido Brown 17:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

My family started a bakery/deli called D'Elia's sometime in the 20's or 30's in Norwich, CT. They always (as far as I know) have called them grinders. When they moved to Riverside, CA in 1955, they got into the same business, but soon thereafter quit selling the bread and meats individually and concentrated on selling grinders only. They changed the name to D'Elia's Grinders (in CA, they still use D'Elia's Bakery in CT). From what I have been able to gather from my grandparents, at first... the term grinder was specific to a sandwich built upon hard crusted roll, presumably (*this is my personal take) because one had to grind the crusty bread when eating. Our bread happens to be a crusty italian roll, and considering the time frame, I believe it may have been so specific, geographically speaking, that the term was ethnically specific as well. They said that when Greek's began to migrate into New England, they bagan toasting their soft crusted breads and calling them grinders as well, most likely for marketing reasons. Granted, I am biased, but I believe that grinder should only be used to describe a sub style sandwich on a roll that is hard crusted from the get-go... not a toasted roll. I too have never heard of, nor seen taco meat on a grinder. I must admit that I have considered creating a "taco grinder" and adding it to our menu. It is probably not a bad idea here in Southern California! (brianperrone)

"Sub" has become increasingly interchangeable with "grinder" thanks to fast food restaurants like Subway.75.35.186.28 (talk) 00:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

While a lot of places use "grinder" interchangeably with "sub", in my experience, a widespread usage of the term is specifically a sub that is baked (or toasted, cheese topping thereby melted). I could provide a lot of web links as evidence, but they wouldn't count as "proof". However, here is an example, interesting because it defines the name of the place.--BillFlis (talk) 00:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

It's a Connecticut term, although in travel, I've seen it used infrequently thoughout the country. At least as common as Hoagie. Perhaps Grinder predates or was concurrent with Submarine Sandwich in the 20's and 30's. Hopefully someone has some references. I also think making the origin of the Grinder a European cibata, is like saying a bicycle was the origin of an automobile. They're very diferent. Good luck getting an inch of cold cut on a sandwich in Italy. It's a symbol of American gluttony/bounty/wealth, whatever outlook you come from. It's diferent. My father grew up in Hartford in the 1930's and they grew up calling them Guniea Grinders. Guniea being a slang for Italian, and Grinder from the common streetside Organ Grinder often of Italian descent.

Guinea is a bit more than a slang term for Italians. It's an enthic slur. BillyTFried (talk) 18:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

worldwide view?

What an odd tag to put on this article! The article doesn't have a worldwide view? Heavens. It's an American sandwich! Would you complain about a worldwide view of tree ears? Of nam pla? Of boeuf bourguignon? Is there a good reason this tag should not be removed? NaySay 19:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you 100%. The worldview tag was just restored. Perhaps someone would explain their reasoning instead of just adding the tag. As far as I know subs are an American sandwich. Maybe Subway or Quizno's has gone international. Dincher (talk) 21:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

y hallo thar anecdata!

I have just removed the following from the article. It reads like a quotation but was not set off from the rest of the article in any way (I'm adding italics here to differentiate it from my own typing).

My mother often told me about how my grandfather came to name his sandwich the Submarine. She remembered the incident very well, as she was 16 years old at the time. She related that when grandfather went to see the Holland I in 1927, the raised submarine hull that was put on display in Westside Park, he said, “It looks like the sandwich I sell at my store.” From that day on, he called his sandwich the “submarine.” People came from miles around to buy one of my Grandfather’s subs."[1]

I'm not sure if the person who added this intended it to be a quotation, in which case it needs quote marks, or if it's their own anecdote, which would mean it's original research and therefore not allowed in Wikipedia. In any case it doesn't seem very encyclopedic to me and at least needs to be clarified (whose grandfather?) and have more support for the claim. Mwillia9 (talk) 20:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 12:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Image

The image which begins this article is also used at the top of the Hoagie and Hero sandwich articles. If they are different enough to merit separate articles, it seems reasonable that they should have separate images. Thoughts? --Cynic (talk) 03:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I support the merge suggested at the top of both of the articles, particularly the unsourced Hero article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 04:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Merge discussion

There has been a proposal to merge this article with Hoagie and Hero sandwich. Please see discussion here. BillyTFried (talk) 04:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Merger to Sandwich

Since there seems to be a strong and vocal group advocating a reduction of the number of articles about sandwiches, I suggest that we study the options including a more complete merger to one article about sandwiches. --Kevin Murray (talk) 17:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

You can't be serious! I suggest merging three IDENTICAL sandwiches into one article and now you want every sandwich in existence merged under one title? This sure seems like a pretty unrealistic and non-good faith suggestion to me. Maybe we should just merge everything edible into Food, eh? Your merge proposal appears to be about as "good faithed" as your action a few moments ago when you removed the pic of the Holland 1 Submarine that a cited source in this article says the sandwich was NAMED FOR but you somehow felt was an "unrelated" image that had a "bad" date under it, and then when I restored it and removed the date under it to satisfy your complaint, you turned around and removed it again and replaced it with a pic of a different submarine NOT mentioned in the article and then DATED IT YOURSELF by putting WWII under it. This reminds me a lot of the first action you took when you got involved here. What happened to "The Spirit of Wikipedia" Kevin? BillyTFried (talk) 18:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Please do not use caps lock. I would just like to note I'm reading through comments & I'm sorry if I don't reply but I'm trying to weigh each comment. I hope you understand in case you wonder why I don't reply much back. --Kanonkas :  Talk  20:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
But I love CAPS, and Italics, and Bold text, and Smilies Alleged smiley killer symbol.svg, and Colored tables, (and caffeine) and exclamation marks!!!!!!! Almost as much as I love the Hero/Hoagie/Sub sandwich. Though you're probably right that I over do it a bit with all of them. Seriously though, I totally understand and appreciate you taking your time to go through all the insane amounts of comments on this topic considering it's just over a sandwich, or three, or thirteen, depending on who you ask. You definitely deserve One Of These for the effort! :-) Thanks! BillyTFried (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The material in "Submarine sandwich" appears to have significant, independant third party sourcing to meet our guidelines for a stand-alone article. Other "sandwich" articles may not currently meet the criteria and perhaps should be merged to "sandwich" until their content has been beefed up, but I do not think that such logic can at all be applied to this article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:01, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
This is borderline disruptive. When a disliked proposal garners support, many opponents go looking for other ways they can take the same principle to an extreme to demonstrate how ridiculous the original proposal was. This is not productive, and engenders nothing but bad feelings all around. Powers T 22:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I concur. Don't do things just to make a point. It's counterproductive. ike9898 (talk) 00:35, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Clearly this suggestion was stimulated by the discussion of other mergers; however, I do with good faith suggest that we study the options. I think that an honest discussion at all rungs of the ladder will help us sort out the proper format. I do not see any evidence that Sub, Hoagie, Hero, Po Boy, etc. have any legitimate claim to a hierarchy, thus none represents a more suitable topic for an article than the others. To argue for a merger at this level does not make sense unless you consider other forms of aggregation as a whole. --Kevin Murray (talk) 07:44, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
  • What a piece of "work" you are! --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:54, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks, but I just tell it like it is! :-) BillyTFried (talk) 00:03, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Sad if you truly believe that. --Kevin Murray (talk) 00:10, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Says the guy telling everyone with a straight face that this was a good faith effort. BillyTFried (talk) 00:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Tribune image

I don't see what this adds, other than to overemphasize the source, which is already wikilinked. There's no real connection with the sandwich, unless they were originally wrapped in this newspaper? I recommend deleting it from this article.--BillFlis (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I just got finished cleaning up after the huge mess you caused by simply bulk dumping massive amounts of totally redundant data into the Hoagie section of this article, obviously before even reading any of it. And almost all of it had to be removed. Now you want to remove the image of the newspaper that COINED THE NAME "Hero" for the sandwich! What's next? Remove the images for Hero and Sub and reduce those two sections to one line each and then rename this article Hoagie to satisfy your Philly Pride? If that's the type of thing you have in mind feel free to glance at Talk:Hoagie to see what you will be up against. I remember you from your demands despite pleas from the majority for a world view to have the USDA definition of the Italian cured meat Capicola used on that page. I also noticed that you took it upon yourself to put it back with the silly pretense of "That somehow got removed" despite your complaint about it's removal still sitting on my talk page. BillyTFried (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
BillFlis is right...the staid civil war newspaper of 1864 is totally different from the lively Herald-Tribune of the 1930s. It's like using a dial telephone of the 1920s to illustrate an iphone. Rjensen (talk) 20:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Why do you constantly insist on re-hashing irrelevant discussions as a bullying tactic to suppress one's viewpoint? You do not own this article and you are not practicing good faith. BroadSt_Bully [talk] 12:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Heh. It's kinda funny having someone named BroadSt Bully call me a bully for pointing out that an editor who recently made several disruptive edits to this article (mass redundant data dumps) has a bit of a track record of dishonesty on Wikipedia (pretending an irrelevant section he added "somehow" got removed when he knew darn well how and why). BillyTFried (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
It is the only available image of the newspaper than coined the name for this sandwich as "Hero" and it is not degrading the article in any way whatsoever. BillyTFried (talk) 21:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
The image is still irrel. If it were the issue of the paper that contained the initial use of "hero" for a sandwich, maybe you could argue for inclusion, but a random issue of the paper does not belong in this article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:32, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how an image of the newspaper that named the sandwich "Hero", an image of the workers who named it "Hoagie", or an image of the "Submarine" it was named after are irrelevant in a section specifically about how this sandwich got it's various names. BillyTFried (talk) 21:39, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
You may be able to convince me about the submarine, but random pictures of workers and newspapers are simply not on topic. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
the 1864 newspaper involved was a very different newspaper (with a somewhat similar name), with different ownership, style, editors, illustrations etc. and it appeared 70 years too early.Rjensen (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
  • The term hero originated in New York in the late 19th century (late 1800s) when Italian laborers wanted a convenient lunch that reminded them of home. The name is credited to New York Herald Tribune food writer Clementine Paddleford, who wrote in the 1930s that you needed to be a hero to finish the gigantic Italian sandwich.
  • The New York Herald Tribune was a daily newspaper created in 1924 when the New York Tribune acquired the New York Herald.
  • The New York Tribune was an American newspaper, first established by Horace Greeley in 1841, which was long considered one of the leading newspapers in the United States. In 1924 it was merged with the New York Herald to form the New York Herald Tribune, which ceased publication in 1967.
Sure seems like splitting hairs just to get rid of the only available image of the paper that named the sandwich "Hero". BillyTFried (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
actually I'm the one who scanned my own copy of the 1864 Tribune and uploaded it. To have an illustration that is 70 years too early and does not even show a sub is . Rjensen (talk) 22:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Is that image of the EXACT edition of the paper that named the sandwich Hero? No. Is that image of the EXACT Hog Island workers who named it Hoagie? No. Is that image of the EXACT Submarine it was name for? No. Do any of these very minute details make those images any less illustrative of how the sandwich got it's various names? No. What's "ridiculous" is being a stickler about this when for the most part the origins of each name are somewhat vague and tied a good deal to folklore and legend. You've never seen a Wiki-article with an image of any old Roman sword that said something like "A sword similar to that which Caesar would have wielded in battle."? Would you be the guy screaming "CAESAR NEVER TOUCHED THAT EXACT SWORD!!! REMOVE THAT IMAGE RIGHT NOW!!!"??? BillyTFried (talk) 23:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Sheesh, but the article on the Herald Tribune itself doesn't even include the image of the Tribune, which is where the Tribune part of Herald Tribune comes from. BillyT, I think that "not degrading" and "only available" are pretty weak arguments in favor of keeping. Also, the newspaper didn't coin the name, the writer did—why don't we try to find a pic of her HEROically eating one? That would be worth keeping!--BillFlis (talk) 23:18, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah right. So then unless we can find a copyright-free image of the exact long-dead person who coined each name for the sandwich, then any and all related images are strictly forbidden. Sheesh is right! BillyTFried (talk) 23:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Again, not being "strictly forbidden" (and what is?) is a poor argument in favor of keeping something. If it's not against the law, let's do it? Hmm, I'm reluctant to go there. I think that the essential argument here is a matter of taste, of which I have been told I have none. I breathlessly await your positive thoughts in this regard.--BillFlis (talk) 00:10, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
My positive thoughts in this regard are that every image presently included in this article is in good taste and makes a positive contribution to it. BillyTFried (talk) 01:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be alone in your opinion that the newspaper is a positive contribution. The image of the newspaper that was printed 70 years before the term was coined (and the image of random Italian workers) are clearly equivilent to the "An image of a white-tailed eagle is useless if the bird appears as a speck in the sky.". And further from our image guidelines "Images must be relevant to the article they appear in and be significantly relative to the article's topic. ... Images that are not properly identified (e.g. images with descriptions such as 'a cuneiform tablet', 'a medieval manuscript' etc.) are unencyclopedic and hence not useful for Wikipedia." (emph added) The current caption "The New York Tribune before being renamed New York Herald Tribune" shows absolutely zero connection to the topic of the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 14:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
How are images of an old NY newspaper, some 19th century Philly dock workers, and a military boat relevant to the article they appear in under the section on naming origins?
  • The sandwich was named "Hero" by an old NY newspaper. In fact by a later version of the very paper pictured. A pic of the LA Times would be a white-tailed eagle, but the present image is not.
  • The sandwich was named "Hoagie" by and/or after 19th century Hog Island dock workers, hence the photo of 19th century Hog Island dock workers. A pic of 1980's Alaskan dock workers would be a white-tailed eagle, but the present image is not.
  • The sandwich was named "Submarine" because it looked like the submersible military boat of the same name, hence the photo of a submarine. I preferred it when the sub pictured was the Holland 1 which one cited source says is the exact sub it was named for, but someone changed it to a WWII sub. A pic of 1970's Hovercraft would be a white-tailed eagle, but the present image is not.
BillyTFried (talk) 19:10, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Ingredients

Given the number of times that Subway sandwiches are used as types of subs, most of the "ingredients"-type info in this article needs to go. The article claims that subs are made on "crusty, torpedo-shaped roll, often of Italian or French bread, split lengthwise". However, Subway's breads are not crusty and come in 7 types, with French not being an option. Is Italian the most common? No, their materials all specify 9 grain wheat. For fillings, the article says, "cold cuts, sausage, cheese, lettuce, tomato, pickles, and other condiments." Per Subway, we're missing meatballs, tuna, prime rib, steak, bacon, veggies, veggie patties and a number of others. The condiments we've chosen to list "cheese, lettuce, tomato, pickles" are arbitrary. Subway lists numerous others, with nothing to indicate why we would call out those particular four (and Subway specifically omits cheese in their nutritional info, while including onions, green peppers and olives on typical sandwiches). - SummerPhD (talk) 14:16, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I got "crusty" and "Italian" from the refs I just added, which I suppose reflects the history of these sandwiches. Your comments reflect the issue of the elusiveness of the names of these sandwiches--anybody, anywhere, who makes and sells a sandwich, even a new variety, can call it whatever they want, and thereby becomes sort of a self-made authority. I think we can go two ways with this article: 1) leave it somewhat like it is now, with a clean, well-referenced definition up front, then list the numerous variants and odd ingredients further down in the body; or 2) cram everything into the first sentence or paragraph. I obviously lean towards #1, altho I have to say that what is there is still far from perfect.--BillFlis (talk) 14:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I changed it to be more neutral and all encompassing. BillyTFried (talk) 18:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The Regional Differences section states this for Hoagie: "Mustard and vinegar were not traditionally used in hoagies, and mayonnaise never is." This is not a fact. I've lived in Philadelphia my entire life and eaten on the order of 10,000 "hoagies". Typically, when you ask for an "italian hoagie", the first questions in response are "Oil? Vineger? Mayo?". I think this sentence should be removed, or re-written at least. And/or sources cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.205.32 (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I live in south jersey, hoagie country, and i agree that vinegar and mayonaise are always options. That part should probably be removed.Gyrophant (talk) 19:28, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Po' boy contradict

From the into, "Po' boy" is a regional name. The "common component to all varieties" of sub is the use of an oblong bread roll but "A key ingredient that differentiates po' boys from subs, gyros, and grinders is the bread." Also "the bread usually used for sub-style sandwiches in the rest of the country, which has a soft exterior" but "Philadelphia-style hoagies should have bread that is crusty on the outside and soft inside". - SummerPhD (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, from Subway (restaurant), we get that "The main food sold by the store is Submarine sandwiches, sold in "Six-inch", "Footlong", and the new three inch "MiniSub" sizes." The "MiniSub" is round, not oblong. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The Po' boy article says it comes on "baguette-like Louisiana French bread". Clearly that falls under "oblong bread roll", and the part where it claims the bread MUST be super crunchy is unsourced and has the {dubious/disputed} tag after it. And the bread detail for Philly-style Hoagies you mention is already noted in the article... "Regional differences - It is often said that Philadelphia-style hoagies should have bread that is crusty on the outside and soft inside." If the bread for Poh'Boys really is always super crunchy we could put that in the same section. Also Subway's 4-inch Mini Subs still look oblong to me. BillyTFried (talk) 00:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Maybe they should have called it the Bathyscaphe! Complete with seaweed. Well, they sell it, so they can call it what they want.--BillFlis (talk) 22:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Or maybe some folks just need a side of sour grapes to satisfy their hunger! :-) But if seaweed on a sub is what you desire you may wanna try here: http://www.subway.co.jp BillyTFried (talk) 00:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Billy, I think you meant to be funny, but I don't quite get it. Which sour grapes did you mean?--BillFlis (talk) 01:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
It's ok, my little joke wasn't directed at you and was just about as funny as your Bathyscaphe joke anyway. :-D BillyTFried (talk) 01:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Wait, you directed a joke at someone? I didn't pick up on that at all. It's so out of character. Are we picking on someone here? Now you've got my interest thoroughly piqued. Tell me now! Who's the gull?--BillFlis (talk) 02:31, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
50px BillyTFried (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment

The comment under the first picture should read "A Submarine sandwich cut in half". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.194.188.186 (talk) 01:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Bánh mì as a "variation"?

Is the Vietnamese bánh mì sandwich really a "variation" of submarine sandwiches? Similar in preparation, but the ingredients tend to be rather different. The main difference to me is that submarine sandwiches are Italian-American in origin, while bánh mì sandwiches is either French or Vietnamese in origin depends on how you look at it. Their evolutionary paths never crossed, so how is bánh mì a variation of the submarine sandwich?

I think a better term might be "similar", rather than "variation". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.47.31.162 (talk) 22:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Regional differences section un-sourced

The entire Regional differences section is un-sourced. You can't include this type of info without sources or else it could easily be opinions. Added fact tags. 24.190.34.219 (talk) 15:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, saw the source in a different section of the article. Added it to the sections that looked like they needed one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.34.219 (talk) 15:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)