Talk:Sukhoi Su-25

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July 11, 2007 WikiProject A-class review Approved
August 29, 2007 WikiProject A-class review Approved
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Protected edit request on 21 July 2014 #2[edit]

I would like to correct an error in the article on SU-25. It says that its maximum service ceiling is "7,000 m, or 5,000 m when fully armed". However, the Russian Chief of Staff Gen. Kartapalov today announced that a SU-25 can easily fly and operate at altitudes higher than 10,000 m. I believe the Russian Chief of Staff trumps Wikipedia when it comes to knowledge about Russian military planes. Thus my humble request to increase the ceiling to 10,000 m, or just in case - to 20,000, to avoid further requests. (talk) 19:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The figures in the article are referenced, you need to find a reliable reference and gain the consensus of other users on this page. MilborneOne (talk) 19:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Wow. A Wikipedia edit war is an actual propaganda misinformation war for a real shoot-em-dead-with-ak47 war. And I'm old enough to know a time when the word "Internet" did not exist. I feel like the South Korean lady who described how in her childhood her family lived in a hole in the ground. (talk) 21:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
I also believe the Russian Chief of Staff Gen. Kartapalov knows the capabilities of Russian military planes. Su-25TM (Su-39) has a service ceiling of 10,000 m [1]. However, it is a Russian Su-25 variant which the Ukrainian Air Force doesn't operate. Perhaps this service ceiling information could be added to the article under the Su-25TM (Su-39) section if necessary? - (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
It has a "maximum ceiling" (according to GS) of 10,000 m, the service ceiling is still 7,000 m.
Note that "maximum ceiling" is a somewhat vague term. It certainly doesn't imply stable flight at that altitude.
Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 23:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
There may be reasons why a Russian general might not be the most reliable encyclopedic source at this time. (talk) 00:51, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Russian general is not, but official webpage of Ukrainian government arms trading company is. See specifications of Ukrainian SU-25 as per Ukrainian military - Practical ceiling 7000-10000. Ukrainian military confirms what Russian general said. Unfortunately Ukrainian mass media are full of lies over 5000-7000 m ceiling of SU 25 for known reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)
I try to assume good faith even when edits are clearly motivated by politics. Further research continues to show that those "putinbots" aren't entirely wrong. There are Su-25 variants that have 10,000 m service ceiling. From the book references of this article: Bedretdinov, Ilʹdar (2002). Штурмовик Су-25 и его модификации [The Su-25 and its modifications] (in Russian) (2nd ed.). Moscow: Bedretdinov i Ko. ISBN 978-5-901668-01-6.  The service ceiling of Su-25T and Su-25TM (Su-39) is 10 km. The type of engines used dictates the service ceiling. All Su-25 variants equipped with ru:Р-195 engines have 10 km service ceiling, while those using older ru:Р-95Ш engines have 7 km service ceiling. References in ru:Су-25, ru:Су-25Т and ru:Су-39 may also be useful. Unfortunately, most information on soviet-era hardware tend to be in Russian. This article might need an expert's help. The engine type and service ceiling currently listed in the article do not match. - (talk) 02:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
The manufacturer's website states that the Su-25K is fitted with P-195 engines, and that it has a service ceiling of 7,000 m. So you'd assume the information on the manufacturer's site is incorrect? That seems unlikely, they build the plane after all. And with 30 years of engineering experience under my belt, this much I know: in case of contradictions on specs, go with the manufacturer's data - it's more likely to be correct. Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 06:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Mind NPA:WP - No personal attacks, Rather attempts to lessen ceiling of SU 25 are politically motivated, since modernization suggests improvements always. Ukrainian army officially sells SU 25 with ceiling 7000-10000. It's the fact. Anything else is simply the pot calling the kettle black. (talk) 05:21, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I really wonder who's the pot calling the kettle black here, as the service ceiling given in the article is consistent with the manufacturer's published data, and there have been no "politically motivated attempts to lessen ceiling", but rather the opposite. Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 06:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
And I really wonder if Rocknrollsuicide would use outdated 1950-ies specifications for AK-47 rifle entry, pretending for being utmost correct and true? Oh, look, you could also mention Crusade agenda in current Pope entry, why not?
Please, indicate for which specific modification of Su-25 the data from manufacturer's website is applicable, huh? Could you also indicate for which specific moment this data was applicable? Wikipedia is not a simple copypaste from the original sauce... [Special:Contributions/|]] (talk) 19:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
The specs given in the article are for the current production aircraft (Su-25K) as specified on the manufacturer's web site, which is linked elsewhere on this talk page but I'll repeat for convenience: That's as referenced as it can get. And lay off the personal attacks please. Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 21:04, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
If there are modifications of Su-25 with ceiling of 10 000 m, then what prevents to write a range in ceiling entry of technical description in the article? There are no different specifications of Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II modifications which, though exist. To reiterate - nothing prevents us from indicating range in ceiling entry of the article. (talk) 05:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I believe we're all in agreement over the specifications section. It is reliably referenced, accurate and there is no reason to change to a different variant from Su-25K. But variants capable of higher service ceiling should be given due but not undue weight. Agree/disagree? - (talk) 16:46, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I would agree for indication of range 7000-10000 as Ceiling in specifications per reliable source - Ukrainian government arms trading company. The same way it is done in other war airplanes entries in Wikipedia. To leave the old entry means then we need to indicate for which specific old modification of Su-25 this entry is applicable. (talk) 19:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
The specific variant described is indicated in the section name Specifications (Su-25/Su-25K, late production) in a manner that is consistent with WikiProject Aircraft § Aircraft specifications and other aircraft articles on English Wikipedia. Furthermore, the cited 7,000 m service ceiling attribute has a reference link, so that information should be very easily verifiable by readers.
What I see as a problem with the current article is that it makes absolutely no mention of the variants capable of 10,000 m service ceiling. Including that information in the relevant sections should hopefully calm any future editwarring over the service ceilings. - (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd propose we'd leave this to an editor who has access to Jane's. If a more capable variant exist, Jane's will certainly have the specs. Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 19:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree that editing should be left to experienced, neutral editors who are experts on the topic. But I would also like to point out that you have been constantly ignoring valid sources or trying to invalidate them and now you are favoring one source. That is definitely not NPOV. - (talk) 17:17, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter what the ceiling of the highest-flying Su-25 variant is unless we know what variant the mythical Su-25 near the airliner was. If there was an Su-25 nearby, it's more likely it was the intended target of the missiles, especially given that 2 Su-25s were shot down by missiles today. - BilCat (talk) 21:38, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I personally doubt the entire Russian story. Especially the implied claim of a lightweight air-to-air missile destroying an airliner like that is ridiculous. But whatever happened is irrelevant. Recent events should not concern this article outside its operational history section. More capable variants exist and sources already cited in the article confirm this. Denying them their due weight would violate WP:NPOV. Perhaps in the future those variants will have their own articles like they do in ru.wikipedia. But for now, their upgraded features should be included in this article. - (talk) 17:17, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that the efforts to include upgraded features began with the release of the Russian propaganda, which makes the timing highly suspicious. WP has no deadlines, so there's no hurry. Give it some time, and come back with reliable published third-party sources after this has settled down. But refusing to drop the WP:STICK won't help your case. - BilCat (talk) 17:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I can understand the suspicion - naturally, the interest in this was caused by said propaganda and reports of its effect on wikipedia. At first I was laughing at the editwar and tried to help stop it before the article got protected. But I honestly thought the point of the protection was to encourage talk page discussion and consensus with no ulterior motive of maintaining status quo on the article. I'm sorry to have wasted everyone's time with my comments. - (talk) 18:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Here is video from 1995. Su-25 flying 8700. Actually with weapon load - it's visible on 5:33. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Do you know how an air pressure altimeter works? It only takes the turning of the adjustment knob to make it show whatever altitude you want to (within some limits). A film of an altimeter is no valid proof, see (talk) 12:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I've seen that video, including the shot of the altimeter reading 8 thousand something. But here's the knocker: airplane altimeters everywhere in the world read in feet, not in meters. Even Russian military planes are no exception. Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 01:07, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Actually no, it's definitely in meters. The Su-25 barometric altimeter gauge says "ВЫСОТА" (height) in "МЕТРЫ" (meters). But barometric altimeters aren't all that reliable. The more accurate radar altimeter below is also graded in meters, but it is capped at 1500, no doubt to facilitate the kind of terrain-dodging the aircraft is designed for. Anyway, the aircraft in the video are undoubtedly flying at substantial altitude, but any exact figures cannot be extracted from this material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:2002:4E46:D841:E41F:4626:51F9:D75B (talk) 20:03, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Service ceiling[edit]

Service ceiling now is incorrect- wrongly calculated feet vs meters. Doesn't make sense. Please correct it. (talk) 22:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Only 1 number is off due to rounding after unit conversion. The specs table lists 7,000 m & 22,966 ft for clean configuration, and 5,000 m, 16,000 ft (16,400 ft without rounding) for loaded config. -Fnlayson (talk) 22:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
According to Ukrainian government arms trading company ( Practical ceiling of SU 25 is 7000-10000 meters. Governmental company "Ukroboronservice" lies? Specification of Su 25 on its site includes air-to-air missiles P60.
Cited 7000 meters are valid only per Su-25K modification and should also include reference (Service ceiling (without external ordnance and stores), km 7) as per its linked source ( We may consider also introduction of "Practical ceiling" entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)
Please sign your comments with four tildes (~) in the future. If you can find a reliable source for any specific Su-25 variant specs, that would be useful. There is no need for "Practical ceiling" entry. "Практический потолок" is "Service ceiling" in English nomenclature. (talk) 02:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Ukrainian army sells SU-25 with ceiling 7 000- 10 000 link is It's more than just official :) and per its description I cite: "UKROBORONSERVICE is a state enterprise which major activity is the realization of state interests of Ukraine in the field of export / import of products, military-technical and special-purpose services. The Company was found according to the decision of the President of Ukraine in 1993. During the time of its existence, the Company has established business contacts with state and private establishments and companies from more than 30 countries of the world and gained a reputation of a reliable business partner. High professional potential of the Company allows it concluding and fulfilling the contracts of any complexity and subjects within fixed terms and with a high quality level." (talk) 05:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Technical specification of Ukrainian sold SU 25 on English" Practical ceiling, m 7000-10000". (talk) 05:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
The specs on "UKROBORONSERVICE" also says this: Max. combat height: 5,000 m. Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 06:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
It's the height from which it could fulfil the main mission - attack ground targets
Shooting with air-to-air is also a mission. 19:19, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe we are looking at a case of astroturfing and recommend the page be semi-protected. (talk) 11:19, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Could you, please, lend credible argument in which specific case there is astroturfing, thanks? (talk) 19:21, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, one very credible argument is that, out of the blue, a handful of anonymous editors have descended on this page, who have never before been actively editing wikipedia but do pretend to tell long time editors, with user accounts and in good standing, how to behave. Rocknrollsuicide (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
The page was fully protected yesterday. No one but admins can edit the article. - BilCat (talk) 16:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I also have a suspicion that the editwar will continue as soon as the protection expires. - (talk) 16:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to state that I made the above comment as IP address and apologize for missing that fact - since the lock was not displayed (MediaWiki bug?), I assumed it was unprotected. In any case, I believe the protection should be kept at least until the matter cools down (a week before trying to lift the restrictions?). Ericloewe (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

There's a Tass interview online (but it's in Russian) where Sukhoi's director of attack aircraft, Vladimir Babak, seems to say that the Su-25K could just reach 10,000m, but he does not think it could shoot down a Boeing 777 at that height. The 10,000m figure seems to be absolute ceiling: the height at which the jet just stops climbing on an average temperature-and-pressure day. How long it takes to get there and how fast it can go once it's there... well, it's just not designed to cruise fast and high as the Boeing is. So 10,000m is *not* service ceiling. The 7,000m service ceiling, also mentioned by Babak and confirmed on Sukhoi's own site, would relate to practical, useable performance (like good cruise speed, good dash speed and good handling), and the fact that the cockpit is not pressurised. Service ceiling and absolute ceiling are by no means always the same thing. -HB (talk) 17:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Ucroboronservice (a state enterprise which major activity is the realization of state interests of the Ukraine in the field of export / import of products, military-technical and special-purpose services) reveils the same "secrets" on Su-25 service ceiling: 7,000 — 10,000 meters. Look at its official site: . Should it be lower than 10,000 meters, consumers might sue it for false information on this product :))
In a RTR TV channel talk show of October 10, 2014 Mr. Alexander Rutskoy (former vice-president of Russia in 1991 — 1993 and Su-25 pilot and regiment commander in 1983 — 1986) also confirmed flying as high as 11,000 meters aboard his Su-25 (its maximum ceiling being 14,600 meters) before attacking the targets and on return flights in Afganistan. No surprise. Su-25 is propelled by the same pair of engines as MiG-21 with service ceiling of the later being 15,000 meters. But one does have to put on an oxygen mask higher than 7,000 meters, said the retired ace. Въ (talk) 11:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Service ceiling is wrong, should be 10,000 plus. The change to 7,000 is very suspicious SaintAviator lets talk 10:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Correct, except you got it all wrong. Prior to the downing of MH-17, the service ceiling of the SU-25 was listed as 7km. Only afterwards started the very suspicious appearance of 10km+ altitudes. Lklundin (talk) 08:47, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Global Service Ceiling[edit]

A number of Wikipedias that I checked (English, Danish, Swedish, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Polish, Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Chinese) agree on a Service Ceiling of 7000m (clean or unspecified).

Some of these articles also specify a lower ceiling of 5000m with weapons.

But the Russian article lists a "Практический потолок" which more or less means "service ceiling" of no less that 14900m.

Additionally it lists a "Максимальная высота боевого применения" which more or less means "combat ceiling" of 9600m.

As far as I can understand, both the Arabic and the Georgian language articles list a(n unspecified) service ceiling of 10000m.

It is a problem that different language articles on exactly the same aircraft can list completely different specs.

My Russian is not good enough that I can start this discussion on the Russian Talk page (and in case anybody is wondering I don't actually know Arabic nor Georgian), but since there could very well be other language articles that specify other ceilings as well, the English Talk page might be as good as any place to start a discussion about how to rectify any discrepancy regarding the SU-25 service ceiling across different languages. Thanks. Lklundin (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd ignore the Russian site completely, and inviting them here to discuss what's a dead issue at this point, trolling aside, isn't good. The Russian site is probably going to stay biased, but if you want to tackle the issue there, go ahead. But please let it die out here. Enough is enough. - BilCat (talk) 04:58, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Good point. I am however thinking of a general, technical approach. In the case of very specific information (e.g. fields in info-boxes), it should be possible to let a bot flag (preferably visible directly in the article) specific information, which in a given language article is in conflict with the same information in a majory of other languages. This would be handy as a general detection of disruptive editing of specific information and serve as a warning to the reader in case the discrepancy cannot be resolved. After all, such cross-language discrepancies are a real problem for the trustworthiness of Wikipedia. Lklundin (talk) 21:01, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't know anything about bots, so I haven't a clue if that's technically feasible or not, or even permissible. It's an interesting idea anyway. - BilCat (talk) 21:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I want to point out that an older version of the current page listed the service ceiling at 10km. (talk) 09:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting SaintAviator lets talk 10:57, 28 October 2014 (UTC) here su25k 7km here height of 14600 and shows how there were so many and then after the disaster corrected to 7 km, here urosayt official 7-10km !!

  • You all know what the maximum height ** ** this is for example 20 km (MiG-25) but 37 km (record and the height but not the flight), 37> 20. If 7 km without a mask, but 10km mask for breathing. Of course that the absolute maximum is much higher / more, and possible to carry a weapon (gun, it weighs one hundred kilograms (and hidden inside in a housing, it does not remove) - plane did not explode, it weighs 10,000 kg) and ammunition.
  • This is true for every combat aircraft, your plane will not fall apart and do not bump into sky / cloud, and will not even resisting, if you go up higher than the maximum (standard). Same thing if you fly up to the wheels or release the landing gear. It is possible although it is not standard. You are still a long time will normally fly and your wheels do not break away / complaint.

If there are so many questions about the height, it is necessary to write the article. 7km su25 (version) 7-10 km su25 (version 2) + text, any plane can go higher than allowed, but with significant restrictions (no load (yes it is true actually) and / or for a long time and / or loss of speed and the ability to steer). It is well known and does not even require a data source, each plane as any other mig25 can rise higher than specified for the standard.

In 2012 the 10 km ceiling for modified SU-25 M1 was the main selling point for Ukrainian manufacturer. See website for 8th International Aviation and Space Salon AVIASVIT that was held in Kiev Antidyatel (talk) 07:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Su-25 shootdown[edit]

Apparently, 2 Su-25 were shot down by rebel misslies today, per this. How long before the Russians claim the Su-25s shot each other down? - BilCat (talk) 19:27, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually the rebels took full credit for today's Su-25 downings, but the Ukraine government says they didn't do it and blames Russia. -Helvetica (talk) 03:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I was being sarcastic, ie, making fun of the Russian propogandists. - BilCat (talk) 04:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I see - that would probably fall under WP:Soap/WP:Forum, but I won't tell on you :-P -Helvetica (talk) 09:31, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • One sentence is not an abuse of either. There's nothing wrong with menitoning two Su-25 shootdowns and supporting article. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Fnlayson - It was actually more than one sentence if you want to be technical about it, and in no way was constructive in terms of improvement of this article. It certainly does violate WP:SOAP to use a talk page to make fun of people as BilCat put it. I personally don't really mind the use of talk pages for chit-chat if it's fairly limited and doesn't impede normal functioning. But I've seen people yelled at on here for much less - for instance asking a simple question on a low traffic talk page. In this case I was just teasing him - hence the :-P I would note though that there's been plenty of ridiculous propaganda from the Kiev side as well though - for instance accusations that the separatists are shelling their own cities! (Yeah, that might violate SOAP too, but apparently one sentence is ok ;-) -Helvetica (talk) 21:09, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I only took the last sentence of the original post above to be 'soapbox' like. Sorry, I just missed the :-P. I am just used to simpler ones like :) and ;) Carry on... -Fnlayson (talk) 21:40, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
"making fun of" in the sense of illustrating the absurdity of the propogandists on this page by being more absurd, not just being mean without reason. I can't comment on Ukrainian propoganda as I haven't seen any of that type on this talk page. I took Helvetica's comments and :-P to mean he was giving me some leeway as a regular productive user, as long as I didn't continue to posts such comments here, which I haven't. Note though that the propogandists have seemed to move on, so perhaps my comments served their purpose in precluding further propoganda. - BilCat (talk) 22:00, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
a qoute

Currently, the Ukrainian Air Force operates approximately 60 Su-25, Su-25UBs, and Su-25UTGs, which are operated by the 299th Independent Assault Regiment (299 OShAP) based at Kulbakino, Mykolaiv Oblast, and at Saki in the Crimea,

  • Saki link to a pen name right is Saky
  • i doubt ukraine "operates" any plane in Crimeria
  • today -5 Su25s , update count if any letf
  • "curently" was long ago curent — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2015[edit]

Rook is transliterated as gratch, but should be grach (talk) 01:47, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done A quick Google search seems to agree with you (eg [2] [3] [4]). Stickee (talk) 03:31, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Niger as a current user[edit]

According to the Niger wiki page they currently operate two SU25s, but this isn't reflected in the page or on the operator map at the bottom. Does anyone know why this might be? (talk) 17:08, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I have added it to the page, sorry it needs somebody clever to do the map. MilborneOne (talk) 17:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2015[edit]

Su-25SM The Su-25SM (Stroyevoy Modernizirovannyi) is an "affordable" upgrade programme for the Su-25, conceived by the Russian Air Force (RuAF) in 2000.

should read

Su-25SM The Su-25SM (Stroyevoy Modernizirovannyi) is an "affordable" upgrade programme for the Su-25, conceived by the Russian Aerospace Force (VKSR) in 2000.

as VKSR is the proper abbreviation for Vozdushno-KosmicheskieSily Rossii (Russian Aerospace Force). (talk) 18:16, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Removed RuAF abbreviation. Since the Russian Air Force Wikipedia page defines it properly, it is appropriate to remove the RuAF stylization. However, in American English (can't speak to other dialects), various countries' Air Forces are termed "country" Air Force. This is pervasive throughout English Wikipedia, including the Russian Air Force page. Which is also what the title of the page, Russian Air Forces, is. Inomyabcs (talk) 15:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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 Done - Ahunt (talk) 17:00, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Hardpoints and fuel[edit]

Combat range: 750 km (405 nmi, 466 mi) at sea level, 4,400 kg (9,700 lb) weapons and two external tanks

I just saw a picture in the news because Russia is allowed to strike targets inside Iraq now and there is a pic without description and I looked in the list of active aircrafts which it could be, it is a Su-25 with 2 external tanks. Combat RANGE means 750km to the target (than attacking the target, means using all or most of the weapon weight) and than fly back with a much lighter machine (since fuel is consumed too and I guess the external tanks are used right from the start and dropped as soon as possible since they create a "aerodynamic drag" (I hope its the right word) and they have a small weight too and every kilometer range is important.

There are 11 "hardpoints" for a maximum of 4,000 kg load. Could there be 4 external, 2 on each side for a small increase in range? There would still be 7 hardpoints left...and how many fuel is usually in soviet designed external tanks.... 250 litres? 200? The weight is only 0.775 - 0.800 gram per liter of kerosene anyway, so 500 litres (in 2 tanks for example) got a weight of around 400 kg only...

Greetings Kilon22 (talk) 11:41, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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