Talk:SunDog: Frozen Legacy

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This is a first pass. Any augmentation or clarification is, of course, welcome. A quick question: there are several sites on the Internet that have screen shots and scans of the box art. Can we use these? FTL isn't around anymore — has their copyright gone away? Has this stuff become public domain? —Frecklefoot 16:43 21 May 2003 (UTC)

Depends on what happened to the company; usually the assets, including copyrights, are sold to somebody as part of liquidation. They can't be PD unless so released by the owner, but screenshots and such are totally fair use, go wild. Stan 06:34, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)


I just added a whole slew of images with Good CaptionsTM. I didn't describe every little detail of what each screen capture represents, however. If any of you think they need clarification, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Frecklefoot | Talk 03:38, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)


amazing amount of data? epnoymous SunDog? precocious windowing system? Jeez, some of this language...-- 01:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, you are free to change the wording--this is a wiki. Frecklefoot | Talk 20:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Already did. Just needed to vent :P -- 05:11, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

History Section?[edit]

Some of what is now in a long trivia section looks like it would form a good history section. What would then remain in trivia would make sense. I wanted to ask for feedback rather than make a big change like that unilaterally on a COTW. Coll7 21:14, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

It'd be okay with me as long as it can be made into eloquent prose. :-) Frecklefoot | Talk 22:32, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Poor sections[edit]

I removed the following two sections because:

  1. They are poorly written. Normally, they would just need to be cleaned-up, but also
  2. They don't refer to any particular version. Do the bugs refer to the Atari ST version or the Apple II version? If the Apple II version, is it version 1.0 or 2.0? If 1.0, was it fixed in 2.0? And...
  3. The "strategy" section mentions particular locations, but the game is random. Locations and such change each time it is played. It sounds like the originator of the text developed the strategy from one play of the game.

If someone wants to take a crack at cleaning them up and clarifying the details, feel free. Afterwards, go ahead and place them back in the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Making Money - Buy scatterguns on Lafser / Tcana / Einkolt. This requires a ground scanner Woremed is a good place to get a ground scanner. Hang out in the parking lot at the lower part of the city. Buy scatterguns and shields from the weapon store. Wait in the parking lot for attackers and use your shooting skills to wipe them out and take their money to buy more guns. Once the scattergun gets low, place it in your ship for transport. When your ship is full, take them to Glory / Glory III / Surreal for sale in the bar.
  • Buying shields for the price of a rapidheal - Go into a weapon store and proceed to buy a rapidheal. When you are to take the rapidheal, click to the right of it and a shield will appear. Place it on your person.

As the lead developer of the Atari ST version, I agree with removing these sections for the reasons cited. I believe the bug mentioned was in the Apple II version, but it was so long ago that I can't say for certain. —Doug Bell talkcontrib 16:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Undercutting rumor[edit]

To answer the esteemed Doug Bell, I added the trivia item on FTL undercutting Accolade on copies of SunDog. I didn't find this listed on the Internet anywhere, I got it from first-hand experience. I used to work for Accolade. When going through some back stock, I saw copies of SunDog for the Apple II. I mentioned I loved that game, but the lady I was with mentioned that FTL was less than honest in dealing with them. Then she told me the tidbit I included in the article. I don't know if it's true--it may have just been perceived by Accolade that way. But they were convinced that FTL had conned them.

I know that this may be perceived as original research, something frowned up here on Wikipedia. I don't really intend to verify this by finding corraberating information. So, if you must, remove it. I just thought it was interesting. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I recall there was something to this, but like I said in my edit comment I wasn't part of the business side at the time, so it is nothing I was "in the loop" on. As I recall, there was another side to this, that FTL had a grievance with Accolade on this issue and that was the reason behind the actions they (we) took. My interest is not in sanitizing FTL's image, simply in trying to keep the article factual, so perhaps a rewording to remove the implication of taking a side in the issue. —Doug Bell talkcontrib 19:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really taking Accolade's side on this either. It's just all I heard was their side. I'm all for balancing the wording. Please do so! — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

OK...I mostly try not to get too involved in editting the articles I am closely associated with to avoid injecting original research or a biased point of view, but I went ahead an made the wording changes I think are warranted. —Doug Bell talkcontrib 19:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Bruce Webster's Project[edit]

Has anyone heard any updated news on Bruce Webster's Project? The artwork posted in the article looks very promising, so I was wondering if plans were underway to continue the work. Perhaps if Bruce is no longer able/willing to continue the project, some other Sundog fans could band together and recreate Sundog with the new graphics. MarshHouse 12:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I hear, he gave up on it. A few things happened, which may or may not have disinclined him from working further on it:
  1. The majority of people joining the project were C and C++ coders, but he stated from the beginning that he wanted it to be coded in Java so it could be used cross-platform. They kind of went against his (original) wishes and started coding it in C++. They also first wrote the interior of the ship instead of the navigation/console portion as he originally intended.
  2. It took too much time from his personal life and work. I think he mentioned this as the real reason to cancel it. The guy has to make a living, after all. I think this is mentioned in the article.
As for fans making a game, I'd talk to him first to find out about the IP. He is easily contacted via email (I contacted him a few times for information on this article). He's very approachable, so I doubt he'd present any roadblocks to developing such a game. But check with him first, he may not be the only one with dibs on the IP. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Bruce is very approachable, though the busy nature of his work might delay his response to your inquiry for quite some time. But that is your best course of action. I also agree with Frecklefoot about what happened with the project - Bruce wanted to go with Java and start with a navigator-type project, but that didn't happen for one reason or another. I was the graphics designer (it’s an honor to see that some of my artwork made it to Wikipedia, BTW), dialogue writer, market-engine designer, and the galaxy designer, so to me it didn't matter what language was used. (Java is Object Oriented, so that makes sense to me.) Plus, those involved with the coding had their own lives and work, so time was a strangling constraint on everybody and led to the project fizzling out.

I still hope something can happen, one way or the other, since the project has amassed a lot of useful products like a huge assortment of graphics, a realistic galaxy/solar system/planet model, etc. I even suggested that we look into commissioning someone to write the core code for the navigator, so we could slap some of my graphics on it and have something functional to show, because attracting and keeping volunteer 'talent' is hard when there is absolutely nothing solid to work with. I thought such a catalyst would make it easier to get a open-source project rolling if people could see something tangible and build on it. But anyway, I know that's not what Bruce wanted, since this is supposed to be a purely open source project; I didn't truly want to commission a programmer either and it seemed like a bitter pill, but I thought it might be a necessary evil to get the project started, since years had gone by without much programming progress and people's interest in the project was fading. I just didn't want to see the chance for SunDog to become an open source project die away. Eh well, I don't poke around Wikipedia much, so email me if you want to get in touch with me. —Terofal77 | 13:46 02 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, C++ is object-oriented as well, (well, it has facilities for OO, but there's nothing in it that forces you to write OO code). But I think the real advantage to Java is that it is cross-platform: what you write on a Mac, will work on Linux, Microsoft Windows or any other OS that has a Java Virtual Machine. Also, I think Webster's written a few books on Java and does most of his development in it, so it's natural that he'd want to use it for the project.
The bitter truth of the matter is that most open source games die. I don't know why this is, because many non-game open source projects are huge successes (OpenOffice, Linux, CDex, etc.). But having worked in the video game industry for several years, I'm familiar with the dynamic nature of game development and know that trying to manage that outside of the traditional 40-hour work week can be daunting. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
JAVA - Very true: the cross-platform capabilities of Java are the strongest selling point by far.
Do you think the reason open source games die is that they are categorized as a "fun hobby" whereas an application like OpenOffice is considered to be "real" work? If this is the case, games won't get the time allocation from the volunteers as other projects would and thus fizzle. Thus follows my idea of nailing down the core of the Sundog: Resurrection game through some form of non-open source development - perhaps getting some collage kid to design it for a school project or pizza money, or paying a professional to do some work in his/her spare time. Once the skeleton is formed, it would be easier and less time consuming for people to contribute to the project by altering and adding onto the already-designed framework, which should be "fun" and help the project survive. Creating a game ex nihilo is a daunting task for anyone, especially for open source volunteers in a game project.
Incidentally, I have archived copies of all my files, databases, images, etc, generated for the Sundog project, in case the need for them should arise in the future. If anyone is interested, email me for info. (email can be found on my userpage). Keeping my fingers crossed... —Terofal77 | 18:03 02 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, finding a game engine is no problem. Free ones and cheap ones (e.g. Torque Game Engine--just $100) abound. Finding one in Java is another matter. Most are in C++, which are pretty much Windows-only or are OpenGL, not suitable for handheld devices. Paying someone to create the engine is an interesting idea, but where's the money going to come from? Fans aren't going to pay for something that might materialize in the future. Heck, fans are even tight with their purse-strings when a game is available!
As for your other comment, I have no idea how any open source projects ever get done. It must be done by single people without kids. When you have a spouse, kids and everything that goes with those, there ain't no time to work on projects on the side. But, yes, games are probably considered a "fun hobby" (and, hey, who are we kidding here, an open source game can't be anything else) and an open source word processor, for example, is considered "serious" and "important." Just my $.02... — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have stopped by Bruce's project page a few times a year hoping to see some good news. I for one would love to see this project come to fruition. Unfortunately not having any programming or graphics skills, I never had anything to offer to help the project along. The last I saw on the project page was Bruce saying things were picking up again, this was back in May, 2005 I think. I spoke with a college friend the other day, haven't seen him since 1987/88. He recalled playing SunDog on my old ST (he even remembered the name!). He only played it once as I moved shortly after that. That is an indication of how fun/memorable this game was. I think if only enough old SunDogger's knew this project was out there, finding the talent and personnel to finish the project, would be easy. ChuckUSCG 17:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I beg to differ. As much as I'd love to see an updated remake of the game, more people doesn't always mean faster turn around—especially in software and game development. More people means more overhead and work in trying to synchronize everyone's work and communicate effectively. Usually, a tight, small group of developers is more efficient and the most available asset is time. Just my $.02... — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that more people would make sychronizing and communicating more difficult, (I don't know how many people Bruce had managed to sign on for the project...) just that if the project were more well known, he might have found the "core" group that could have seen it through. I haven't been there in awhile, but look at all of the groups that are still creating mods for games that have come and gone, ie Jagged Alliance. I also agree with you in that most people consider open source gaming a "fun hobby" as opposed to "serious" "real work" ie, MythTV. I suppose I can only dream that one day I will once again be able to fight off hordes of pirates on my way to Wormed :) ChuckUSCG 18:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The info on the SunDog: Resurrection stuff is a little out of date at this point. Jake (Terofal) has done a great job on 1024x768 graphics, there is fresh new code being written (mostly by me) and the game is being written in Python to make it cross platform. Right now you can wander around the ship, insert/remove items from various lockers or ship systems, enter the cockpit and use the menuing system to spool up the warp drives, etc. etc. I've also been working on getting hardware acceleration working which so far seems to be going well. Agntdrake (talk) 07:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Then, please, update the info in the article! :^) — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would, but isn't it considered to be bad form to update info on a project that you're working on? Agntdrake (talk) 01:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Turn-based strategy?[edit]

Are you sure this game is turn-based strategy? I thought the game was played in real time. SharkD 16:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Some parts are, some aren't. Change it if you feel it is warranted. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 18:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sundogbox.JPG[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg

Image:Sundogbox.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

Save_Us 09:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I added the rationale. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 16:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Commons:Category:SunDog: Frozen Legacy[edit]

Hello. I just group a lot of image about this game in Wikimedia Commons. I dont think this content is free. Please patch them all, or move it to your local Wikipedia before we delete them all. Thanks a lot. bayo 23:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced info[edit]

The following is ALL unsourced material:

  • The original Apple II version of SunDog was written in Apple (UCSD) Pascal (~15,000 lines) and 6502 assembler (~5,000 lines). The Atari ST port was also done using UCSD Pascalafter the development team first created a custom port of SofTech's p-System for the ST.
  • The Apple II version 2 of SunDog had a self-running demo. It advertised a sequel to SunDog called SunDog II: Old Scores to Settle. Though it sounded engaging, the game was never developed. The same demo promised a version for the Apple Macintosh which also never materialized.
  • SunDog was originally envisioned as a trilogy. SunDog II: Old Scores to Settle was to have Zed seeking to find out the real circumstances of his uncle's death via interactions with a number of specific non-player characters, one or more of whom might want to kill Zed as well. SunDog III: Blows Against the Empire would build upon SunDog II and find Zed enmeshed in an empire/rebellion conflict where it's not at all clear who the good guys are.
  • Electronic Arts approached FTL in 1985 and proposed taking over distribution and marketing of the game. FTL passed on the offer. How such an acquisition would have affected the game's future is unclear, but it certainly would have seen wider distribution and greater consumer exposure. However, FTL did partner with Accolade in a distribution partnership for the game.
  • In the distribution deal with Accolade, as part of the deal, Accolade provided FTL with a list of retail stores to whom they had sold copies of the game. Following a dispute between FTL and Accolade, FTL took the list, contacted the retailers, and then sold them copies of the game themselves, undercutting Accolade's price. As a result, Accolade refused to do business with FTL again and changed the terms of their distribution contracts.
  • The Atari ST version has several features not found in the original Apple II version. For example, it has slot machines in some bar/restaurants. The player can gamble on them and make a small sum of money. It also has parking lots for the (drivable) cargo pod. If the player simply leaves their pod parked out on the street somewhere, they face the risk of having it "booted" and thus have to pay a fine at a uniteller before they can re-enter the pod and drive it away.
  • After programming version 2.0 of SunDog for the Apple II, Bruce Webster quit FTL due to burn-out. He did not take another programming job for four years.
  • After Webster's departure, Holder and FTL Games went on to create Dungeon Master, which is widely respected as one of the best games of its era.
  • The cover artwork for the game is by David R. Darrow, still a commercial artist.[1] Darrow also did the cover artwork for several other FTL products.
  • The Apple II version was copy protected and spent 9 months on Hardcore Computist's "Most Wanted List", and there was even an $80 reward listed in two issues.
  • The "Sundog" vessel bears an uncanny resemblance to the "Turtle" from the anime Space Adventure Cobra.

While this material is pretty engaging, I'm afraid that it needs sources. And I wouldn't think that it's trivia, given that trivia is "unimportant material". This all sounds interesting and important to the game to me! - Tbsdy lives (talk) 03:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Tbsdy lives, I agree that it's all pretty interesting and it would be nice to have sources for all of it. Some of it Webster confirmed himself to me verbally, which unfortunately doesn't help with sourcing for Wikipedia. Here's what I can say about each:
  • The original Apple II version of SunDog was written in Apple (UCSD)
Webster confirmed this to me verbally, except the part about the port of the compiler. It may have happened, but he didn't talk about it. The developers of the Atari ST version contacted him and praised him on his code and how portable it was. Most of what he wrote was left intact without any changes for the ST version.
  • The Apple II version 2 of SunDog had a self-running demo
This can be seen in the Apple II version itself. I know we can cite games as a source, just not sure how to do this.
  • SunDog was originally envisioned as a trilogy. SunDog II: Old Scores
This is sourced now. It's not a great source'--it comes from Webster's own blog--but it's what I could find. He also told me about it verbally (unusable).
  • Electronic Arts approached FTL in 1985...However, FTL did partner with Accolade in a distribution partnership for the game
This can be confirmed from the packaging (for the Apple II version, at least). It has Accolade's name and FTL's right there. Can we use packaging as a source? I don't know.
  • The Atari ST version has several features not found in the original Apple II version.
This can also be confirmed via the games themselves. How to mark as reference? It's also noted several places online. If we found a review from a reputable that mentioned it, we could use it.
  • FTL undercut Accolade's price
Part of this I got from employees at Accolade (when I worked there, several years ago, long after SunDog). The other half I got from some former FTL employees. I don't know exactly what happened, but it would be awesome to get a source that we can reference.
  • After programming version 2.0 of SunDog for the Apple II, Bruce Webster quit FTL due to burn-out
This has a ref now. Again, not the greatest, but it's all I could find. He also told me about it personally.
I don't know what kind of reference this needs. It's an empirical fact. We even have an article on Dungeon Master.
I don't know who added this little factoid, but I think it's listed on Darrow's website. Again, not a great source, but better than nothing.
Are digital copies of Hardcore Computist available online somewhere? Someone have paper copies?
Perhaps, but this is hardly notable. It's a fairly generic ship design: piloting in front, cargo in back. It also resembles the base ship, the Kestrel, in FTL (whose similarity in name to SunDog's publisher is probably just a coincidence).
I don't know if any of this helped (probably not), but that's my $.02... — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 19:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

release date ?[edit]

according to this ref it was first released in 1982 (in WP article 1984).

[1] thank you. Shaddim (talk) 21:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

  1. ^ Daniel Durgan (Oktober 1998). "FTL FAQ". The Un-Official Dungeon Master Web Site. Archived from the original on 2000-12-05.  Check date values in: |date= (help)