Talk:Sun Yat-sen

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Former featured articleSun Yat-sen is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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Current status: Former featured article

Shanghai Former Home of Dr Sun Yat Sen[edit]

Perhaps add in under "Monuments" reference to the Shanghai former home of Dr Sun Yat Sen and his wife Soong Ching Ling? A quick reference is: http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shanghai/residence-sun-yat-sen.htmCite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). Denise203.219.65.50 (talk) 05:56, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Chen Jiongming[edit]

not currently mentioned in the article nor is his shelling of Sun's home while Sun and his family were still inside. I know the article is already quite long but seems like it merits inclusion. Some people just have interesting lives. — LlywelynII 10:52, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

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Views on religion[edit]

Sun does not believe in any religion, although he might had believed in various gods/religions when little or young influenced by environment/surroundings. Sun says science is better than religion. Science means judging by observation, experiment and research, not following superstitions, but religion means believing and following books of ancient persons regardless of whether true or false, right or wrong. 「科學的知識,不服從迷信,對於一件事,須用觀察和實驗的方法,過細去研究,研究屢次不錯,始認定為知識。宗教的感覺,專是服從古人的經傳。古人所說的話,不管他是對不對,總是服從,所以說是迷信。就宗教和科學比較起來,科學自然較優。譬如現在我們用眼光看遠方之物,多用千里鏡幫助,看得很清楚。千里鏡是近來科學發明的,古時沒有科學,所以沒有千里鏡,看遠方之物,當然不用現在看得清楚,這就是宗教不及科學。」 (《孫中山全集》第8卷,第316頁) --Rastionay (talk) 18:33, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

The article appears to have plenty of sources to support him having been a Christian. You'll need to provide some sort of reliable sources that dispute or counter this. -- ferret (talk) 19:21, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
This October 1923 speech was given about 18 months before Sun's death. Whether this speech means that Sun has renounced his earlier religious faith, about which he was outspoken for many years, is an interesting question; if you have a reliable source on this, by all means cite it here. Note that this speech was given to the 9th annual meeting of the Chinese YMCA. If Sun meant to use this speech to denounce or criticize religion, it seems an odd choice of time and place to do so. In fact, your quote leaves out some interesting further discussion of science and religion, about which Sun is not so negative as you imply. It is also worth noting that the version of this speech published in Shanghai in the November 1923 YMCA journal 《青年進步》is quite different from this version, which apparently was published in Canton. Rgr09 (talk) 01:09, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Two versions? Could you please provide the corresponding part of another version? The above I quote is officially adopted in the collected works 《孫中山全集》. It's consistent with what is recorded in the biography 《孫逸仙傳》 by 宮崎滔天. The biography records what Sun looked back: His belief in the religion Christianity was shaken when he read more and more books on science. When attending a medical school in Hong Kong, he felt what the religion tells is not reasonable, he was in doubt, so he read many scientifical or philosophical books, and then he was greatly inclined to accept that the theory of evolution is reasonable. --Rastiony (talk) 14:43, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
I think Sun developed very great political and constructional theories. He was a little simple, ideal, so, looking to and relying on the supports of warlords of the time, he failed many times, and after seeing the astonishing success of Soviet Union taking power, he was attracted by its experience, and intended to use the experience, to form a strong party and army to unit the country and thus Three Principles of the People can be implemented. That's what I know and perceive. In religion, he became offensive after becoming a Christian (just conforming with, as I know by reading their books and from history, Abrahamic religions are very exclusive and anti people who are different from them), did damages to Chinese gods and religions, and with growth, he realized that all religions/gods are superstitions, and he helds the opinion that religions should not get involved in politics and agrees the separation of religion and politics. This is what I know from what I read. --Rastiony (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
@Rgr09: Would you please post the citations for the Shanghai publication of the November 1923 YMCA journal (in Mandarin?) & the the Canton version (Cantonese?) ?
@Rastiony: Would you please post the citation for the collected works?
It would be preferable if you both used the {{Cite book}} or {{Cite journal}} templates. Maybe you could look the bibliographic information up (including the OCLC #) at worldcat.org by searching the book/journal/article title. You might try searching first for the English version(s), then in the simplified & traditional versions for Chinese.
Thanks! Peaceray (talk) 18:28, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
The entire Canton (=Guangzhou) version of the speech to the YMCA assembly is available online, see 孫, 中山 (1923-10-20). "人格救國與地方自治". 孫中山生著作資料庫. Retrieved 2016-11-23.. This web-page mentions the Shanghai version in 《青年進步》 and notes that it is different. I believe that that the Shanghai version is available in Taiwan, I will try to find a citation for it.
Regarding your quote from the Guangzhou edition, the rest of the passage reads as follows: 因為這樣的原故,現在宗教知道專迷信古人經傳之不方便的地方很多,便有主張修改新舊約的,推廣約中的文字範圍,以補古人所說之不足。至於宗教的優點,是講到人同神的關係或同天的關係,古人所謂“天人一體”。依進化的道理推測起來,人是由動物進化而成,既成人形,當從人形更進化而人於神聖。是故欲造成人格,必當消滅獸性,發生神性,那麼才算是人類進步到了極點。Translating just a part of this, "The strength of religion is that it considers the relationship of man and God, or man and Heaven, which is what the ancients meant by "Man and Heaven have one form." Based on the principle of evolution, we can deduce that men evolved from animals. Having taking human form, they must then evolve further and enter into what is Holy. Thus to create moral character, one must destroy one's animal nature and cultivate one's divine nature, only then has evolution reached its pinnacle." There is thus, in my view, still a strong Christian element in Sun's thinking.
It is also worth noting that virtually every Western biographer of Sun calls him a Christian; see for example Bergère, Marie-Claire. Sun Yat-Sen. Trans. Janet Lloyd. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1998, page 6. (Bergère is probably the best biography of Sun in a Western language.) I have not been able to track down Miyazaki Toten's work cited above, but it seems to be a magazine article, not a full-blown biography. That Sun accepted the theory of evolution does not mean he lost his Christian faith, as the quote above shows. Since Miyazaki died in 1922, three years before Sun, he cannot very well tell us anything about Sun's later thinking.
This whole topic is discussed in the Chinese Wikipedia (see 孫中山與宗教). This article gives some quotes where Sun describes himself as Christian, or a believer in Christ. It does note that there is some disagreement on whether Sun abandoned his faith in his later years. Regarding this, see Wilbur, C. Martin. Sun Yat-sen, Frustrated Patriot. New York: Columbia UP, 1976, page 281, where Wilbur describes Sun's funeral in Beijing on March 19, 1925. Despite Soong Ching-ling's comments cited in the Wikipedia article above, it was a Christian service, presided over by Timothy Lew (劉廷芳). Wilbur cites Kong Xiangxi's comments (孔祥熙) at the funeral as follows: "Just a day or so before his death Dr. Sun called me to his bedside, and taking both my hands in his, said: You're a Christian and so am I. I wish to tell you something I have always felt which you will understand. Just as Christ was sent by God to the world, so also did God send me." Rgr09 (talk) 03:29, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
After Sun's death, even during the coffin was in Biyun Temple, a Buddhist temple in Beijing, after public memorial ceremonies, before the funeral ceremony was held in Nanjing in 1929, there were many ceremonies, including a Christian memorial ceremony held on 19 March 1925. This may imply that he had links with different fractions including Christianity. As to the Christian memorial ceremony, on the day Ta Kung Pao reported that part of members of KMT were angry about it and claimed it's an insult not only to Sun but also to spirit of KMT. KMT Central Executive Committee stated that it's the activity of his family and had nothing to do with KMT. At the time the country was in a great movement of anti-imperialism as well as dis-Christianization, or translated as anti-Christianity, which opposes the religious aggression of Christianity. So Sun and his family (not his parents, but his wife's side Song families) are in an awkward position. I doubt whether Sun's criticism on Christianity comes from his own heart, or from the pressure of the people and KMT members. --Rastiony (talk) 10:58, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I have a question, what's the standard of defining somebody as a believer of a religion? In case of Sun, he believed Chinese religion as influenced by his family when young, and then believed Christianity after he entered a Christian school, and later he realized that religions are superstitions compared with science. So can we say he is a believer of which religion? About what he is , not was, is the judge based on his final attitude before death? Then who knows or which source is credible? Moreover, if someone is close to a religion, or even profess to be a believer of it, but his or her real thought contradicts or invalidates the religion, then can we say he or she is a believer of the religion? --Rastiony (talk) 14:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
In the article there is a controversy about whether he is a believer of a religion or not, it seems it's appropriate not to label him a believer of a religion. And related information including briefing of controversy can be provided in corresponding part. --Rastiony (talk) 11:09, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
The translation of Sun's speech: "Scientific knowledge (/Knowledge of science) does not follow superstitions. About a thing (or matter), it needs to use approaches of observation and experiment to do detailed research, and only if no wrong for repeated research, then it can come to a conclusion accepted as knowledge. The sense of religion is specially to follow books of ancient persons. It always follows what ancient persons said, regardless of whether right or wrong. So compared between religion and science, certainly science is better." Source: "Collected Works of Sun Yat-sen", Volume 8, Page 316. citation info: {Collected Works of Sun Yat-sen |author1=Sun Yat-sen Research Center, Department of History, Sun Yat-sen University |author2=History Institute, Guangdong Academy of Social Sciences |author3= Center for History of Republic of China, Modern History Institute ,China Academy of Social Sciences |date=1986-05|title= |url= |location=Beijing, China |publisher=Zhonghua Book Company |page=316 |volume=8 |isbn=9787101079357} 「科學的知識,不服從迷信,對於一件事,須用觀察和實驗的方法,過細去研究,研究屢次不錯,始認定為知識。宗教的感覺,專是服從古人的經傳。古人所說的話,不管他是對不對,總是服從,所以說是迷信。就宗教和科學比較起來,科學自然較優。」 来源:《孫中山全集》第8卷,第316頁。 --Rastiony (talk) 15:34, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
The above content is the same to the one on Guangzhou Republic Daily published in November, 1923. As the page of the link given by Rgr09 points out, another version on YMCA journal 《青年進步》 is very different. It also needs to point out that YMCA journal was a Christian media, while Guangzhou Republic Daily was hosted by KMT led by Sun. My analysis is that as a media of a religion it may probably avoid publishing contents that say the religion is a superstition, worse than other thing, even though it's true, so it seems Guangzhou Republic Daily is more reliable. --Rastiony (talk) 15:52, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Rgr09 that the speech has a strong Christian element, of course on the hand we need to consider it's a speech delivered to YMCA, a Christian organization. --Rastiony (talk) 14:31, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

About the relations between Sun and Chinese religions, here I translate some materials mostly from the article 孫中山與宗教. Sun was born in a traditional Chinese family believing in Chinese gods and religions. Sun's name as a kid, Di Xiang, derives from the meaning Blessed by Bei Di, a Taoistic god, as the wish of his family. However, he began and insist on believing in Christianity after entering a Christian school at the age of 14 in Honolulu, Hawaii and since then he became very hostile to Chinese gods and religions. He often persuaded others not to worship Taoistic gods, including Guan Di Jun. His elder brother worried that others might get annoyed and the parents might be unhappy, so sent him back to hometown, at his age of 18. Soon later he with a companion broke the arms of a statue of the god Bei Di in their village. Later Sun realized that all religions are superstitions, considered Taoism to be the biggest superstition and hinder for China to make scientific progress, and was not friendly to the Chinese gods and religions. As to Buddhism, he once praised it to be "benevolence for salvations, mother of philosophies" which can "make complement of malpractice of science". In 1918, he took the lead in donating to rebuild buddhistic Qixia Temple in Nanjing, contributing 10 thousand silver dollars. --Rastiony (talk) 16:11, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

From Sun, to Chiang, to Mao, the three most influential political figures in republican times of China, all were not friendly to Chinese gods and religions, especially Mao, the Communist Party, was extremely hostile and resulted in immense destroy of Chinese religions and cultures. And there was another figure before, Hong Xiuquan, who sometimes along with Mao, both of whom resulted in deaths of tens of millions of people, were called the Two Evils by some people (Hong and Mao shared many similarities, e.g. a comparison. I find someone says Hong Xiuquan is failed Mao Zedong, and Mao Zedong is successful Hong Xiuquan. There is also a opinion they both are founders of religions/ideologies that established disastrous regimes, Hong's God Worshipping Religion/Jiao as a variation of Christianity and Mao's Maoism as a form of Communism, and here it needs to note that Jiao can mean teaching or religion. Perhaps the main reasons Sun thought highly of Hong are based on their same target to overthrow, Man Qing rule, and their similar close relationships with Christianity, and Mao thought highly of Hong are based on their similarities in the idea of Communism and utilization of proletariat, the poor peasants, to gain power.). Regarding Sun, he was aware that all religions are superstitions, but he was still a pro Christian figure, although he did criticize Christian priests "relying on their state force, give unprincipled protection to their followers, intervene litigations, bully people that are not of their religion". So I just understand why many people don't like him, despite his efforts to fight against imperialism and Man Qing autocratic rule. His unfriendliness towards Chinese religions hurts the feelings of the people, this is one of the reason. If all religions are superstitions, why pro one and anti another? It's unfair, without saying it's in China and he himself is a Chinese. And the believers of Chinese religions are very simple, they simply wish be blessed by gods, good deeds will be rewarded with good and evil with evil, and unlike Christianity or other Abrahamic religions, they are inclusive and not hostile to other (not evil) religions. --Rastiony (talk) 16:30, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure we're reading the speech in the correct context. Immediately after the quotation above, he went on: "因為這樣的原故,現在宗教知道專迷信古人經傳之不方便的地方很多,便有主張修改新舊約的,推廣約中的文字範圍,以補古人所說之不足。至於宗教的優點,是講到人同神的關係或同天的關係,古人所謂“天人一體”。依進化的道理推測起來,人是由動物進化而成,既成人形,當從人形更進化而人於神聖。是故欲造成人格,必當消滅獸性,發生神性,那麼才算是人類進步到了極點。"[1] Sun advocated that humanity should build upon religious texts, transcend biological existence, and become "godly". With that in mind "這就是宗教不及科學" does not mean "This [shows that] religion is not as good as science", but rather "This [is the aspect in which] religion is not good as science, [on the other hand...]". Deryck C. 14:16, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Right, I have no different opinion. Sun said science is better, in the context of comparison between science and religion (concerning approaches, right or wrong, e.g. on human evolution). The part followed is a religious view, or exactly, a view trying to integrate Christianity and a sort of opinion of Chinese religion, and as I pointed out before, it's a speech delivered to a Christian organization, a religious organization, let alone his close relationship with Christianity. We know that science does not deal with all issues, e.g. moral, if without consideration of Moral Science, and there are spaces for philosophy, to some people, religion or other ideologies, and other things. Just now I found the above quotation about Buddhism can make complement of malpractice of science is not directly from Sun's speech, but indirectly from Hsu Yun, a Buddhist teacher, so it's a question whether it's really Sun's words or not. Sun's granddaughter Sun Huifang wrote in her book that he said Buddhism is the "benevolence for salvations, mother of philosophies" that can be "supplementary to deficiency of law". Although Sun agrees the separation of religion and politics, he holds that religions are a supplementary to politics, and he advocates religious followers to be patriots to participate righteous political activities. --Rastiony (talk) 16:08, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Friends: I have learned much from this balanced and civil exposition of a central theme in modern Chinese history. As a long-time atheist who reads the Bible, I urge you not to hide your light under a bushel! Please consider adding a few paragraphs to articles where your material would add considerable weight, such as Christianity in China, New Culture Movement, and even Religion in China. You are very right that Republican era govrenments viewed Chinese folk religion as superstitious and backward, as argued by Prasenjit Duara. I have added articles on Christian figures, basing much on Daniel Bays, New History of Christiamity in China. You would make a great contribution to Wikipedia coverage of modern China to include your thoughtful and nuanced views on these and other topics.ch (talk) 15:47, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
PS For Miyazaki Toten see Marius Jansen, The Japanese and Sun Yat-sen and Jansen's translation of My Thirty-three Years Dream.ch (talk) 15:53, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes. Chinese religion suffered a lot in the radical eras of modern history, including under rules of KMT and CPC (It's unjust, since as we know, mainstream Chinese religion does not intervene politics, and according to the belief the believers do not repel or trouble others, so how could the governments repel and trouble them and deprive the property of their religion?). There are different reasons for their attitudes. As for Sun, his unfriendly attitude towards mainstream Chinese religions especially Taoism, I think came from his close relation and contact with Christianity which as an Abrahamic religion is very exclusive yet with strong attempt to aggrandize the number of followers, and his ignorance. He is ignorant of the Chinese religion Taoism although he is a Chinese, as he himself indicated, according to Paul Linebarger, written in the book Sun Yat Sen And The Chinese Republic. As to Buddhism, Sun respects it. It seems that he had a strong intention to promote Christianity, at least till his forties, while he emphasized that a Christian also should be a patriot. --Rastiony (talk) 16:55, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
If you want to write an English equivalent of zh:孫中山與宗教 and include a short blurb on this article, you're welcome. We've spilled enough ink on this topic without actually proposing any changes to the article. Deryck C. 17:49, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Rastiony, I second Deryck Chan's suggestion! As you pointed out further above on this page, this would give richness to this whole area, including Chiang and Hong Xiuchuan's Christianity. I made some edits and reverted others on the Hong and Taiping Heavenly Kingdom articles, where some editors resisted the idea that he could call himself a Christian at all. We also are working to develop Religion in China to deal with the general modernizers' criticism of what they regarded as feudal supersition and the state's impulse to look on local religions as subversive of state power, an impulse that modern governments inherited from the emperors.
So if you look in the categories Category:Chinese religious leaders and Category:Chinese Protestants, for instance, you can see there's good work to be done from a point of view that is not itself religious but takes religion seriously.ch (talk) 18:15, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
OK. I think it's better that articles provide more exact or full-sided information. --Rastiony (talk) 13:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I read what Sun says to understand his thought. He takes religion as a kind of belief, and he also takes the Three Principles of the People as a kind of belief. Comparing the two kinds of belief, it's undoubtedly that the latter is more important. --Rastiony (talk) 11:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Good news, Rastiony, that you are reading and thinking about this, but I hope you can put your work into more public form by adding to articles or creating new ones. A Talk Page is really meant for discussion of the particular article, not general observations. You are well qualified to do this work -- Be Bold!ch (talk) 17:11, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your encouragement. I'll edit later. --Rastiony (talk) 11:02, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Sun is not a Dr.[edit]

The title Dr. is mis-attributed. He did not hold a Doctor degree nor a physician licence. 113.208.112.25 (talk) 11:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

True, but he was a graduate of Hong Kong University (well, what became HKU) medical, and according to the British custom of the time, he, like others, was called "Dr."ch (talk) 15:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
His school did not become HKU medical but was absorbed into HKU medical (as a tiny fraction). The school was not entitled to award any degrees. He was not able to get the physician licence in HK, therefore he is not entitled to be called Dr. in any meaningful way. 113.208.112.25 (talk) 04:31, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

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Expanding the Further exile section?[edit]

This section is a bit bare bones and it might be worth while to expand it a little further. Maybe including how he raised money for his revolutionary party or how those parties helped him is his release. ChristianDelano (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2018 (UTC)