Talk:Super Smash Bros. Melee/Archive 3

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Food item from Kirby games?

in the Kirby games, various foods were used to heal small amounts. The food item in Super Smash Bros. Melee could be from the Kirby series.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.56.24.130 (talk) 17:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

I don't think so. Correct me is I'm wrong, but I don't remember hamburgers being in the Kirby games, but they do appear in SSBM. Sincerely, 67.182.178.220 01:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

of COURSE the healing foods come from Kirby. What other game do you get random food items to heal yourself? 12.215.110.44 17:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

WRONG!

Only the Maxim Tomato comes from Kirby. So stop beign a. Angry Sun 19:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Angry Sun, you have a cool username and all, but stop belittling others. He brought up a valid point (what other game do have so many types of food?), and should be respected. I believe Kirby could use Chef (the power, not Mr. G&W's ability) in Kirby Super Star, could he not? What were enemies turned into? He had the fridge power in Kirby 64, and he generated food with it. The food that was first seen in this game could merely be the "next-gen" food items. I'm not on this though. --LuigiManiac 23:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
For areas such as this where something might be a cameo, but it's unclear, I tend to trust Sakurai's SSB/M/B websites to reveal the answer. Of course it's not always 100% clear there either (Barrel not a DK reference; Egg is a Chansey reference in SSB, but not in SSBM, etc.) He does not list the food as a Kirby reference. I would guess if it was meant to be, the food would look more cute and Kirby-like. (Fryguy64 17:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC))
Actually, most of the food items you see in SSBM are also in Kirby's Air Ride. (GCN) The food items themselves are the work of HAL Laboratories, so it makes since that they would use them in their games as they have. HAL created both Kirby's Air Ride and Smash. --M.K. 12:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

okay i think i can solve this the food came from yoshis story

I know for definite Kirby's Fun Pack had a huge range of food in it, including most (if not all) the food in Melee as I have the game. Yes, including the hamburger. Evils Dark (talk) 00:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Sonic and Tales Hoax

I personally believe that this should not be in the game becasue it really has nothing to do with the game itself.Chessmaster3 23:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 

I agree its so pointless!! hes not even in the game!

well this is an encyclopedia were supposed to know as much as possible plus it states you haft to get exactly 20 k.o.s i've heard of 216, 21 but never 20

They're not in the game. — Malcolm (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

how do you know?

It's a hoax. EGM and Nintendo have confirmed it. — Malcolm (talk) 20:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
If you want to prove it then take a video of you playing sonic and tales and you unlocking them whatever way they say. But even if you do show us a video of that people will probably still not believe you because there are no models, sounds, etc. for them in the game. This means that it would have to be read off of another save file from a different game and the size of such a file would mean that saving would take several minutes whether or not you had SSBM. This would mean people would in turn come to hate that game and reduce sales of it, which companies DON'T want to do. If you don't like this answer then go on any site that claims to have unlocked them and let a couple of lies outway thousands of truths. --71.170.1.101 21:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Tiers?

Should we add a "current tiers list" to the article? AnujSuper9 07:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

No. Comrade Pajitnov 14:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Why not, at least give a reasoning... AnujSuper9 23:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Because this isn't supposed to be a game guide. See WP:CVG/GL. --Yuuki Mayuki 06:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
"A general rule of thumb to follow if unsure: if the content only has value to people actually playing the game, it's unsuitable." The tier list is worthless to non-players, and even to many Smashers. The Smash community generally wants lots and lots of recognition, thrusting its terms and its tier lists into articles. But that isn't appropriate for Wikipedia; save it for SmashWiki. --MaskedSheik 11:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Ah, ok. Well the reason I brought it up at all is because it is generally one of the most sought out pieces of information regarding this game. AnujSuper9 17:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

If thats the case, they can look it up on gfaqs. Not wikipedia. Besides that, as balanced as this game is, there's hardly any reason to try and see what characters would over power the other as that would be a difficult task.--Neofcon 16:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Smashwiki already has the most information regarding that subject (Tournaments, Tiers, Playstyles, Techniques, etc...) --M.K. 12:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe they should show it anyway. It doesn't have to affect people's choices, but it's nice to get the current from one page rather than searching around smashboards.com. If not here then at smashwiki- handpuppet —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.68.106.175 (talk) 02:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Ditto??

Does Ditto really appear in melee? I was thinking of writing something in the article about ditto probaly being a hoax, but I should check first. 07:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelofdeath275 (talk • contribs)

I'm pretty sure it doesn't (in battle). However, for me, this seems to be too irrelevant to include it at all. --Yuuki Mayuki 08:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Ditto was a character originally designed to be in SSBM, but was removed before final. It can still be accessed via the Debug menu. It summons a ditto that says it's name (go figure), and then disappears. It can do damage to opponents, however. It's in the game, but not with out the debug, in a nutshell. Oddeven2002 06:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Also if you choose a random character in tournament mode it will show Ditto as the character. Depressio 03:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Link Discussion

i was gonna add a link to smashwiki, run by smashboards, but it said to discuss before adding a link..

In what way does it comply with WP:EL and WP:SPAM? --Nlu (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

If people are interested in ssbm they might want to go to smashwiki to learn more, im depth knowlege about the game. - 69.47.216.213 20:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The SmashWiki is, as of yet, still not officially open to the public, but as you can imagine, these things have leaked out over time. -- Randall00 Talk 15:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been re-adding this link for a year now. If you take this link down, then you might as well remove all the other links. Unless you guys can think of a legitimate reason for taking down this link, I'm going to keep it up there. - Borzou99 18:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

All of the links are official links. Moby Games is an information site. Smash World Forums is supposedly the biggest SSBM forum out there, with some coverage in the press, so it stays because it passes WP:EL. Unless you can think of a compelling reason to keep another fansite, it's gone. Hbdragon88 18:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
If it were truly a respected source of Smash info for the community at large, somebody other than the page's administrator would've tried to add it by now. Points for effort, I suppose, but GAME SET! :^) -- Randall00 Talk 22:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I will concede for now. But in less that a month, our information will be as official as any other major site and I will continue my efforts. Hbdragon, you should run a spellcheck. Cheers. Borzou99 09:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I just wanted to say that I think SSBA should be added to the list of sites for many reasons: 1. It delivers up to date Smash news 2. Nintendo and Game Press recognize SSBA as members of the press (I can verify this as well). 3. We are more informative than IGN AND Gamespot. And as for 'fansite' status, doesn't SmashBoards qualify as fansite as well? Have I made my point yet? Cheers. Borzou99 04:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

While we are on the subject, why isn't a Gamefaqs link up here? Borzou99 14:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Because, once again, this article isn't supposed to be a strategy/FAQ site, or linked to one.

Sincerely, 67.182.178.220 01:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Still doesn't explain why Smash Boards and IGN is allowed to have links up but we aren't. Borzou99 01:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Online

I think there should be a section for SSB:M online, you can find out about it on youtube 72.210.51.3 02:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Slip Stream

Could you please give a link(just copy the URL and paste it on the page)→041744 20:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Glitches

There are many glitches in this game, and I was wondering if there should be an article about them.----Sage1989 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.170.197.10 (talk) 14:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

  • No because it doesn't contribute anything to the article, nor is it (in my opinion) noteworthy. The only people who would care would be the people playing the game.Harry Huang (real) 23:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

And whats wrong with that? I enjoy reading about glitches for all kinds of games because they give me an example of problems that i can avoid in programing. Also what does it matter if the only people that would care are the players themselves? We have a MASSIVE article on runescape where a large amount of info is stuff only the players would "Care" about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.95.116.229 (talk) 22:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Your point about runscape is ..? We acknowledge the fact that crap exists elsewhere, and rather than using those as excuses, you ought to try to clean it up. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a fansite, and as such, should contain information intended for a general audience, not just the series' fans. You Can't See Me! 23:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

This article needs a HUGE overhaul

Looking through this article almost makes me want to cry. Wikipedia isn't a game guide, but apparently no one knew that in this instance. This article is way to in depth to be any useful to people just looking for quick info. The section about all the different gameplay modes is just useless. We should make an effort to make this page encyclopaedic, and if no one will, then I will when I find the time. Same goes for the Super Smash Bros. article.

Paji, signing out. Comrade Pajitnov 02:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

When you have so much activity, it's hard to do what I really like to do. It took me the longest time to remove in in-universe "Debug menu" section, and the Tournaments section could use a lot of cleanup. I've never played this gam before, so I cannot authoritatively rewrite it to satisfaction. I've resigned myself to merely killing the promotional language when I see it. Hbdragon88 00:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
It's on par with other game articles of a considerable fanbase. To a fan of the game, this doesn't read like a game guide at all and actually appears to be quite encyclopaedic in how it caters to non-players. If we really wanted to turn it into a game guide, there's quite a bit more information to cover than that. -- Randall00 Talk 04:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we need to list all of the special melee modes. Doppelganger 17:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont think we need a section on tournament specifics but thats being protected with a huge ego.--Neofcon 18:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Trophy errors

It is notable that there are errors on some trophies. Although it said on the Princess Daisy trophy that she had an appearance in Mario Golf, though the writers obviously meant NES Open Tournament Golf. --PJ Pete

That's... not true. Andre (talk) 04:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry......it's easy to note there are errors on some trophies. Here's a list of corrections:

1. Princess Daisy was re-introduced in Mario Tennis, but although they put in Mario Golf, they meant NES Open Tournament Golf where she was Luigi's caddy when Princess Toadstool/Peach was Mario's caddy and love interest.
2. In Japan, characters that appeared in a game for the Famicom Disk System (FDS), the abbreviation was incorrectly identified as "FCD".
3. The Great Fox first appeared in Star Fox 64, not in the original Star Fox for the SNES.
4. Meta Knight first appeared in Kirby's Adventure for the NES, not in Kirby Super Star for the SNES.

The corrections to trophy errors should be mentioned in the article. --PJ Pete
Your corrections may be right, but are they notable enough for a large section of the article? – MaskedSHEIK (talk)(contrib) 13:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

ya

Why doesn't anyone ever call the game by its correct spelling? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.180.66.13 (talk) 09:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

And it's correct spelling is? -Crimsonseiko 19:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Presumably "Super Smash Brothers Melee" (or perhaps "Mêlée"). Since pretty much every official source spells it "Super Smash Bros. Melee," though, that would be a more appropriate name for the article and for in-article references. MaskedSheik 20:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
In all actuality, the name "Super Smash Bros. Melee" is what the game itself is titled, on its disc and main menu, and since it is a copyrighted title, it is the ONLY title for the game. However, to save time, many people have turned it into an acronym, but that is for speedy purposes, not informational, so it needs no discusiion on Wikipedia. Any comments, let me know, thanks! Ziggaway 06:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

First Source

The SSBM sales source from ign says nothing relating to the matter on the bundle article. I can't use this source in a paper and I need a solid source for the sales on the game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.100.218.121 (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

smashboards.....

Is smash boards online play with your computer?! how do you do it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.170.126.41 (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

Smashboards is a message board on which SSBM players discuss Smash. Tournaments are sometimes organized on Smashboards, but they all use GameCubes and normal gameplay, not the computer. – MaskedSHEIK (talk)(contrib) 14:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

On the hoaxes

In SSBM, there is a debug mode accessed by Action Replay that allows you to scroll through every playable character. Meta-Ridley and the other character are hoaxes.

wait what? what do you mean let me ask you have you seen: sonic or tails, wolf, regular ridley just tell me who you see that you havent seen before... i wish my action replay worked...

Look through the above and previous conversations to find more information on what is (and isn't) in the debug menu.

Waluigi trophy

For Waluigi, his relationship to Wario is unclear. It was only mentioned in Mario Tennis to have Wario and Waluigi as brothers or relatives, but as of Mario Party 3 and subsequent Mario games, Waluigi's relationship has been retconned. --PJ Pete

Mario and Luigi

Under the characters section it says that there are many clone charecters which I agree with like Fox and Falco or Captian Falcon and Ganondorf. They all have completely identical A and B attacks but Mario and Luigi have completely different A attacks and their B attacks are similar but they are quite a bit different, in particular Luigi's green missile attack, so I don't think they should be placed with the clone characters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.26.126.185 (talk) 23:10, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

None of the clone characters are completely identical, either - they just use similar animations for their attacks (note, for instance, the differences in the effects of Fox and Falco's respective down aerial attacks). I'm not sure how to change the text to project the point without miring myself too far into the specifics of the game, but I do think it's important to make the distinction. – MaskedSHEIK (talk)(contrib) 16:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Advanced stuffs?

I think that adding advanced stuffs like waveslides and glitches would make the article a lot better for experienced players. Also, an in-depth character guide and tactics should be included. SSBM Pro 01:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)SteveNash11

I think so too, NOT! -Rebent
Just kidding. I think that there should be a section saying that the advanced moves exist, but then link to an external guide for the how-to, because of wp:not -[[User:Rebent|Rebent

Should I create a SSBM character guide or SSBM advanced guide, or neither?SSBM Pro 04:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)SteveNash11

Neither.
As Rebnet said above, simply acknowledging and perhaps providing a brief (i.e. one or two sentence) summary of a few of the more famous glitches, such as wavedashing, might be useful, but the thing is, Wikipedia's philosophy on games is generally to only include information that someone who has never played the game in question would understand with a little bit of background information. We're an encyclopedia and thus a general knowledge resource, not a detailed how-to guide.
Your contributions in that area, however, may very well be welcome on a Smash-specific website or wiki. Your favorite search engine should be able to turn something up. :) --Sparky Lurkdragon 05:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Spaceworld tech demo references in trophies

In 2001 when the gamecube was announced it was done so with a collage of game tech demos and trailers both Meowths Party and the sword used by Ganon in the realistic Zelda demo are shown or in the text of the respective trophies. Atirage 15:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

the hen a who na what?

Ken Hoang - still the best?

It's worth mentioning at least that Ken only placed 3rd overall last MLG season, methinks. – MaskedSHEIK (talk)(contrib) 16:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Errata?

Why was it changed to Errors? 24.159.39.11 13:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Probably because it's a more common word. Personally I had to go to Wiktionary to understand it. Gurko 08:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Tournaments

Why the huge section on Tournaments? IMO they're hardly notable, and serve only to promote Smashboards and the competitive Smash community, which makes up a negligible portion of the overall Smash fanbase. Wikipedian06 03:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, but game articles are to explain game features and overrall reception, not competitive matches surrounding it. Or at least not a huge section dedicated to that.--Neofcon 01:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a professional tournament scene therefore the addition of the tournament section is important. It is cited neutral information. Please discuss your attempt at removing the tournament section before removing it since our decision does not agree with the decision of everyone else. 71.169.64.43 18:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Then add this section for every single game that is used in professional tournaments. Singling out one single game to have a section devoted to something thats not at all important to explaining the overall game itself while other articles have the same situation (yet not include such information) is a fallacy in itself. Other than that, its like an attempt at advertising Smash Boards and Pro tournaments rather than explaining the game in general. Not to mention that a game being included in a tournament doesn't = over all impact on the gaming industry nor does a huge section need to be devoted to detailing who won such and such matches and what not. Game articles are for explaining games, not those who play to win them. --Neofcon 00:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, why is there a tournament section on this article? It's not notable at all. Douglasr007 05:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, why the tournament section? Maybe a "Miscellaneous" section would be a good idea. (Tournaments, Version Differences, Advanced Techniques etc.) ---Krinkels. 07:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed Errata and version differences

There basically just trivia with no true relevance to the article itself.--041744 15:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - and let's make sure it doesn't sprout again. – MaskedSHEIK (talk)(contrib)
01:49, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Characters

Um, yeah... I really don't see why the addition of two-three sentences for every character hasn't been reverted yet. It's completely unnecessary. (The same thing is happening over at the article for the first Smash Bros. as well.) Disaster Kirby 07:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I will admit that I added them on the Melee article (I copied the originals from the SSB article). Why are they unnecessary? They're an ordinary list of the main characters in a game that intersects a bunch of different franchises. The fact that the article's so small is annoying, so I think the character details helped flesh it out. Mikntosh 07:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Because there's a complete list of characters at the Super Smash Bros. (series) article, perhaps? Disaster Kirby 07:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
That just gives names, not details on the actual character in the game. So I say the discriptions should stay. -041744 01:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
And each individual character's article has that small bit of info and more. Disaster Kirby 03:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

If the section is on this page you don't have to go all over Wikipeadia to find out about each character's stats, and besides this actually does contribute to the article-041744 20:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Some one blanked out all the descriptions, I reverted it→041744 04:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

They are filler and not necessary to understanding the character. No layperson needs to know what symbol each character has in order to understand the character. Information about attacks and other characteristics is game guide information that is not permitted under WP:NOT. Lastly, the irony is that you never discussed it when you rmed all the errta and version differences information. hbdragon88 04:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey I put that I banked those sections on this page and gave a reason, and no one argued or objected to me. And 2 sentences a character is not game-guide-ish. If we included a description of every attack I would see your point, but we're not doing that.

I really think this arguement has gone on too long, I think we should have a vote...→041744 17:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It is still unnecessary information, not necessary for understanding the game, not relevant. Per other examples, other fighting series such as Virtua Fighter and Tekken only have lists of characters, if that, without long and lengthy descriptions of what they do. hbdragon88 18:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


Survey

  • Strong Keep It is not Game-Guide-ish, This Actually Does Contribute to the article.→041744 17:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete per my above comments. hbdragon88 18:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete; all the section is is a summary of each character, and you'd be better off finding out information about them in their respective articles. Disaster Kirby 18:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete. There is a reason why Super Smash Bros. (series) exists. If one feels that that article doesn't properly describe the characters, put it there not here. --myselfalso 06:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete. I see no reason why we just can't save bandwidth and just put all the characters on the series page. Killer cellos!!! 16:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


Fine I admit defeat, I will list the character names with no descriptions except what series their from. Thats OK right?→041744 18:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
No, because then that would be the same exact thing as what is over at Super Smash Bros. (series). The vote was to delete the list of characters entirely. Disaster Kirby 20:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright I'll delete all of them.→041744 22:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's an idea, why not propose the characters stats at the Super Smash Bros. (series) pages over there instead of over here? magiciandude (Talk) (review) 09:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
No, Like they said, it's game-guide-ish, the people have spoken.→041744 19:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you can't put things like that 041744. Consensus was not to place that on this article. If you look at my comment, you'll notice I made mention of the (series) page. I agree with Borincano75. I'd suggest proposing that there. --myselfalso 19:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

MattDeezie

I just removed this section:

In 2002, a Smashboards moderato by the handle of MattDeezie hosted Northern California’s Tournament Go (TG) series which revolutionized the competitive scene. This led to IVGF NorthWest Regional Gaming Festival and Tournament, the first corporate sponsored tournament, which was held at Seattle, Washington in the beginning of March 2003. During this time IVGF gave out a record $12,500 for the top three finishers of Super Smash Bros. Melee, a record that would be held for almost three years.[1] By the sixth incarnation of Tournament Go in the summer of 2004, MattDeezie’s small local tournaments had exploded into a hundred person national affair.

The only reference was just a generic tournament information link, not a third-party source. That section sounds completely non-notable in the respect that I do not see any multiple, third-party, non-trivial sources that have covered this tournament. If there are other sources that proof its notability, I will be happy to put it back in. hbdragon88 18:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand your view point, however IVGF is cited and notable. I added the whole section back feel free to remove MattDeezie, but not IVGF.75.11.56.149 23:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
There's a little edit war going on with the Tournaments section now. I think it needs to be rewritten or removed. There are hundreds of games in tournaments who's articles don't contain that information. This info belongs on the tournament's article if it has one. If you want to emphasize the amount of competitive play this game has experienced it should be written differently.

To keep or not to keep the tournament section

There is current edit war in the tournament section. Neofcon feels that the tournament section should be remove, however I and other feel that this section is a vital part of smash culture similar to the section of Counter-strike culture and Professional Starcraft league in those articles. Professional smash players do exist and therefore based on precedence the tournament section should be kept. 71.169.64.43 00:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I have explained my reasons ABOVE in the tournament section of this talk page. Refer to that if you please.--Neofcon 03:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Also Professional Street Fighter, Tekken players ALSO exist, however no one gives them any credit, so therefore unless they are given a notable "existence", the tournaments section is nothing more than simple promotions of Smash Bros. Tournaments by these standards. Pro Smash players exist, but they have no credibility in explaining the features of a video game (which is what these articles are supposed to be about). One person however detailed that this would somehow "explain" the game's popularity but this is misplaced in a separate (and unnecessary) section. If thats the over all point of that section, then I request it be shortened and placed within the "Critical Reception" section. If not, it should be removed. In checking those two articles you mentioned, there is NOTHING stating specific tournament events OR players. They only state tournaments as being part of the game's popularity. HOWEVER the tourny section in Smash details extreme specifics about the prizes of the tournament, who organized it, the players, and how well they fared in the competition. This is absolutely NOT important to this article as it does nothing but advertise and promote these competitions. --Neofcon 03:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
What about Starcraft and Counter-Strike? Not only do they have a small section in the article, but they also have entire articles devoted toward tournament culture. Notability is established because Smash has been corporately sponsored by Major League Gaming, Gamestop(2004-2006), and has been cited in multiple indepedent sources. I know that Evo hosts Street Fighter and Tekken, but who is the corporate sponsor? 71.169.64.43 07:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
You might want to re-check those articles. They aren't full blown sections. They are simply included in a "popularity" and "Reception" section. Also note that only ONE of them has an entry article on it. This doesn't explain the need of one full section for smash. Also it shouldn't matter who the sponsor is or why it's important to make a full section devoted to specifics of what occurred in the tournament as well. This does nothing for the article besides advertising/promoting them. Mostly this belongs in a "reception" section because this has everything to do with the game's popularity over all. An entire section because of a "corporate sponsor" doesn't save it from being unnecessary and pointless.--Neofcon 11:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe the "tournament" section belongs in Super Smash Bros. (series). --myselfalso 14:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Two days later, still no word about it. No one has really discussed this subject any further rather than a "few" lines of paragraphs. As I figured, the warning was nothing more than to prevent people from removing it and exert one's power. So far there hasn't been anything good said about why the section should kept rather than corporate sponsors who's importance to the over all section is detailing popularity over all. So what I will do is put the section in the critical reception area since thats the only case there seems to be about this.--Neofcon 13:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I was out for a few days, just because I do not reponse to your comment does not mean you have permission to just remove the section. In the case of Starcraft there is an entire section devoted to tournament culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starcraft#Legacy

In fact starcraft has an entire article devoted to tournaments: StarCraft professional competition

In the case of counterstrike it has not one but two section devoted to it:

Counter-Strike#Culture Counter-Strike#Legacy

Also Quake 3 Arena also has the same thing: Quake_III_Arena#Competitive_play

The precedence has been set. I see no reason why this should be removed also I changed the section to Legacy instead of tournaments per other articles.141.150.213.156 05:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I forgot the part where wikipedia require's "permission" to edit articles as it allows people to freely edit them. Also in regards to the legacy section, the starcraft section is NOT that huge in length, also it is part of the "reception" section. The culture section in counter-strike refers to how specific teams handle the game software, NOT tournament play. Counter strike's Legacy section contains a MUCH SMALLER paragraph on tournament play and other information on OTHER aspects of the counter strike besides tournament play. And besides all of this, Smash Bros. Melee is a "fighting game", and you are using examples from different genres to justify an entire section to a tournament section. Many other fighting game articles do not contain anything like this and by your logic, does not require such information due to who the tournament sponsor is. Should it matter who the sponsor is or not to have sections based on tournament play? I highly doubt it. Saying "these sections of First person shooter games" have tournament sections so a single "fighting game" is justified while millions of other fighting games do not" is an entire fallacy in itself. Therefore i'm incorporating it into the reception section as that is where it mainly belongs.--Neofcon 13:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Because its vandalism everyone else seem to not care about this section or agree that it should be kept given the fact that the tournament section has been around for over 2 years. I have no understanding as to why you are so fervert in its removal. Video games are videos games, genre is irrelavent im not taking poker or sport im sticking with video games. Irregardless of the size of the section there is an entire section devoted to tournament culture. You initially said:

"They aren't full blown sections. They are simply included in a "popularity" and "Reception" section. Also note that only ONE of them has an entry article on it."

This is a blatantly untrue. Now you claim that the other section are smaller which is also untrue Starcraft has an entire article devoted toward its competitive culture and quake and counterstrike has an even larger sections. I suggest we move on this argument is wasting both of our times. 141.150.213.156 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I find it funny that this section was removed. SSBM has a highly evolved competitive scene with thousands of players, it would make sense that, in an article devoted to the game, there is mention of those who are devoted to playing it. Ignoring that this game is played competitively is like ignoring that the NBA's existance in a basketball article. The competitive community essentially DEFINES what Smash is today, and things are only getting bigger. We aren't talking some obscure shoryken website that exists for the purpose of evo and multiple dying fighting game franchises, we're talking an evolving, developing, growing, popular, and noteworthy community that has a very far reaching impact. Nintendo Power cited Smashboards and MLG in a 4 page article essentially devoted to the competitive community, so even they realize the importance of Smash's competitive existence. I'm for actually expanding the tournament article and revamping it to more closely resemble that of basketball, football, and other major sports, in other words, explaining how the game is played competitive, essentially letting everyone know the rules of the game. I'm not sure why Neofcon keeps removing the section, when it is obvious he knows little to nothing about the game or its competitive community and history. I just returned from a tourament in Indiana sposnored by MLG called FC Diamond (the same series Nintendo Power also wrote a small article about in 2005), 256 entrants and 91% of them TRAVELED from out of state to play the game. I live in Maryland and would be happy to come play him and display how little he actually knows from simply owning the game. Alphazealot 19:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Be bold! --Rebent 21:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Just because some other articles on here have tournament info on here, doesn't make it a valid argument. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS Douglasr007 06:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Everytime I look at that Legacy section, I feel like it does not fit with the rest of the article, but maybe that is just me. Perhaps some sort of introductory sentence that says "the popularity of SSBM had led to the creation of official tournaments" or something dumb like that could help link the section with the rest of the article.SuperChencho 07:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The "rules of the game" according to YOU. As in 1 vs. 1, Final Destination, no items, and all that good stuff. The vast majority of players do not play like that. The vast majority of Smash players want to enjoy the game, not restrict themselves to 5% of it for the sake of "making things equal." If you notice, Smash does not have any set rules other than the pre-programmed game mechanics and what the players define them to be. The only people who persist on keeping the "Tournament" section in this article seem to be the competitive players themselves. The players who make up probably less than 1% of the Smash fanbase and yet are more vocal than 99% of them. Wikipedian06 04:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion:
  1. Move mention of Ken Hoang to another part of the article.
  2. Give an example of a large-scale tournament under Reception. We really only need one.
  3. Nuke the section. You Can't See Me! 04:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is the mention of Ken Hoang so important? Why don't we have an article about the world champion of every game? Classic Doom players Andrey Budko and Marijo Sedlic have won dozens of Doom tournaments, and they don't have their own articles. Legendary speedrunner Mike "TSA" Damiani, who at one point held world record times for almost every "Legend of Zelda" game, whose superplays have been watched by millions, and had been interviewed by MTV and many members of the gaming media, doesn't have his own article. Tom Duncan, who holds world records for over 3,000 games as verified by Twin Galaxies and is currently the top record holder there, doesn't have his own article. Seriously, who dwells on these kinds of trivial matters* except those "professional players" themselves -- and those in their community -- who want to feel like they've accomplished something and want to get themselves more noticed?
  • Trivial as in relative to what the "average" Wikipedia visitor looks for -- namely, basic information about a game.

Wikipedian06 07:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason I suggested keeping mention of Ken Hoang is because he has his own Wikipedia article. Wikipedia's processes have deemed him notable enough. You could argue to put Mike Damiani's name on The Legend of Zelda (series); thing is, though, he doesn't have an article of his own, which cripples that argument since Wikipedia apparently doesn't deem him notable enough.
Ken has his own article because (1) the tournament players created his article in the first place (which goes with their fierce passion to promote their lifestyle to every corner of the planet), (2) when the article was nominated for deletion, the same competitive Smash community banded up to save it. "Wikipedia" is made up of the sum of its users. The tournament info and fancruft isn't being removed because the Smash fanboys keep working so tirelessly to prevent it as if their lives depended on it. Wikipedian06 11:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Really, Wikipedian06, I don't understand your personal distaste for competitive players. Granted, they're not the entire fanbase (definitely not even half), but they're definitely not the 5% you claim that they are. Like it or not, competitive battlers are indeed a part of the fanbase and (as you pointed out) the most vocal. Politicians are an extreme minority in the United States, yet they are the most vocal and therefore notable. You Can't See Me! 07:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Because the typical competitive player is an elitist with an over-inflated ego and sense of self-importance? They think that their presence is all-important, that being good at a video game is the only determinant to succeeding in life, that they stand for the entire Smash community, that their rules mean everything to everyone. (This goes for tournament regulations, tiers, rankings...you name it.) Have you been on Smashboards and seen the way they talk about "outsiders," i.e. anyone that does not conform to their ridiculous beliefs and policies? It's not just me -- there's actually been an increasingly widespread sentiment against competitive (Smash) players on many other websites (for example, see 4chan's /v/) Wikipedian06 11:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, there's the problem. If you can't edit from a NPOV, then stick to something you are neutral about. You are taking these matter--of-fact and planning to delete them because you hate the essence of the people mentioned, not because you really think it is unencyclopedic. You Can't See Me! 20:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Both sides are elitist and see the other side as closed-minded. The casual players say that the tournament setup isn't how the game was "meant to be played," while the competitive side sees their tournament setup as five years of experimenting to ensure that the more skilled player wins without eliminating too many things. The casual players don't like being dismissed as being of a lower skill level, while the competitive players probably do have a point in that casuals don't know what they're talking about, as all competitive players were once casual players while none of the casual players have been competitive players. OK, are we happy now? The competitive scene should be mentioned like how it is mentioned in the DoA 4 or StarCraft pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.69.144 (talk) 04:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ken was in Electronic Gaming Monthly as one of the top 5 deadliest gamers. He was number 2. All these points about how other people who are great at a game not having a wiki isn't a problem, go and make one if they are notable (which I think they are). Ken is notable, as he stood as a fixture of the most dominant and talented Smash player ever and has made over $50,000 playing the game. If you think that isn't notable, you might as well remove the wiki for jonathan fatality. In the end it really is all about scope and scale, at what point do you consider someone or something notable, and considering that 6 million people own the game I would say those people may want to know that there is indeed someone who is the best. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.107.47.144 (talk) 21:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Fact is that the tournament scene for Melee is one of the biggest on a console game. It's no Halo, but it's big, and has a ever growing competitve-based movement, even if it is the minority of the overall smash scene. If I recall, it's been a part of the major gaming tournament scene since it's release, and lastest the longest as a major tournament game on the 6th generation of gaming (since Halo 2 whiped out Halo 1's). However, Counter-Strike could use one too, as well as StarCraft (especially the later, being a Korean phenomenum if it hasn't already). The competitive scene should be mentioned as You Can't See Me! suggested, under miscalaneous, or something. It should at least have around 3 sentences to a paragraph mentioning it on minimum. After all, it is a pretty big competive scene-but still nowhere as big as casual play. Johnknight1 21: 03, October 30, 2007 (UTC)

List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. Melee

I'm thinking of starting a list of trophies in the game. Does anybody have any objection to this? LOZ: OOT 06:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm just wondering, how do you make a list? LOZ: OOT 04:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

NO, A list of 293 minor and trivial trophies will waste valuble space on this page, a mention of trophies is enough for now and always, we should not list trivial things like items, trophies, moves not even every character is in this article becuase of the table on the series page.→041744 14:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I mean on a separate article of its own. LOZ: OOT 15:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's unencyclopedic. — Malcolm (talk) 16:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

But what if I link this article to an external link that tells what all the trophies are. LOZ: OOT 21:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No, please read WP:EL. — Malcolm (talk) 22:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. See this: Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons. I think this qualifies. hbdragon88 02:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Providing an external link to a website that lists all of the trophies is perfectly legitimate. --Son 13:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with it, then. — Malcolm (talk) 14:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
GameFAQs already provides such a list, so adding another just for trophies would be redundant. Nifboy 17:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Balloon Fighter

He was NOT supposed to be in this game. In the Ice Climber's profile on the official site, Sakurai lists some other franchises he CONSIDERED to represent the Famicom spot before deciding on the Ice CLimbers. They were Urban Champion, Excite Bike, Kuru Kuru Land and Balloon Fight, and he gives the reasons why they wouldn't work. No one REPLACED the Ice Climbers. 75.153.231.20 00:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

"Trivia" in playable characters section

I don't see what's wrong with the inclusion of this under playable characters. It's about playable characters that were in the game, didn't make the game for whatever reason, or was Sonic and Tails, a very rampant rumor for the game. That's the appropriate section to place them in, because it's in reference to playable characters. It wouldn't be included in a trivia section, as trivia sections are strongly discouraged; trivia CAN be included in articles, as long as it's worked into the article. I don't see how this is wrong. --Son 01:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't either, but if somebody is going to have a problem with it (as it often is the case around here), can it be moved to the series article under playable characters? ~ SuperChencho 05:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
No, that's not necessary. Why remove information relative to the game this article is about? That's my take. --Son 14:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest making a Development section for the article (the article needs the section anyway, if people ever want it to become any higher in article status), and putting the info about Snake, Lucas, Marth and Roy in it. The Sonic and Tails rumor should still be mentioned as well, but it wouldn't fit under a Development section, since the rumor surfaced a lengthy bit of time after the game had already been released. Disaster KirbyTalk 17:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources missing

Just because the Smash World and Sonic statements are common knowledge, doesn't mean they don't need to be cited. See Wikipedia:When to cite. --(trogga) 02:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC) 

== Progressive Scan mode / 60 Hz mode needs to be mentioned ==

I made a swift attempt at this in the development section, but it was quickly removed. The fact that Super Smash Bros. Melee is progressive scan compatible should definitely be noted somewhere in this article. The same should go for the PAL version's ability to run at 60 Hz instead of 50 Hz (replacing progressive scan, unfortunately), seeing as how 50 Hz mode actually slows down the gameplay by about 17%. This information is not present in game or in any of the packaging, so I feel it's quite important. RyokoYaksa 21:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? Original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. — Malcolm (talk) 21:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is sourcing necessary for this in particular? It's an in-programmed option activated just like any other Gamecube game that is progressive scan compatible or 60 Hz compatible (PAL). The difference is that nothing in the game itself or its packaging makes a note of this, which is why I feel it's worth mentioning in the respective game's Wikipedia article. As far as the 17% slowdown, SSBM falls under the category of "poor PAL conversions" that the PAL region[1] article makes note of, which I had nothing to do with. How the description of a game's display options could be considered contestible as opposed to other parts of the existing SSBM article does not make sense to me. RyokoYaksa 01:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Simply put, sourcing gives an indication of why it "needs to be mentioned". Nifboy 07:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

So are you basically trying to say that SSBM runs slower on the PAL version? IF that's all I dont see how this page would benefit from it. -Krinkels. 06:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not? If you've ever played a PAL converted game falling under that category, you'd know that it has a huge effect on its playability and presentation, as does 480p compatibility. It's more noteworthy than a lot of the trivial information present in this article. Instead of pointing fingers, you can help source this information. In this, Nintendo.com confirms progressive scan compatibility for SSBM, though it does not explicitly say it is NTSC only, which progressive scan support for SSBM is limited to. SSBM's packaging says nothing about it being progressive scan compatible, unlike the majority of other GameCube games. You will also find several sources online saying the PAL version of SSBM is 60 Hz compatible and that the 50 Hz mode makes the entire game run slower and with black borders, but most of them are not in English and are not what you would call "reputable sources." Nintendo Europe states how 60 Hz mode for some games work, but does not explicitly state SSBM. Nothing in the packaging of SSBM in PAL territories says anything about this functionality. However, they both exist and greatly affect the game. People who play this game in NTSC territories on HDTVs would benefit from this knowledge, as progressive signals require less processing than the default interlaced signal, which could cause game-breaking processing delays or visual artifacting by deinterlacing. Australia, being both an English speaking and PAL territory, would benefit from knowing that the game runs in 60 Hz, given the 50 Hz conversion is poor. RyokoYaksa 16:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Mewtwo in Melee

One question: What the HECK is Mewtwo saying in Japanese during his victory screen piece when the language is changed? I can't understand it.

external link

I just asking to see if it is okay with people so I can have a link that goes to a page with more info. It is about unlockable characters, although the link goes to a page that could involve promotion. In this case it wasn't my article and i merely found it and thought it would be nice addition. I never intended it to conflict with this. This link does split off to more, but leads t=you to the first major one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilikehamrs (talk • contribs) 01:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The tournament section is written like an advertisement.

It sounds like it was written to promote Smashboards, MLG, and Smash tournament play, which the vast majority of Smash players are not interested in and do NOT want to be a part of. Wikipedian06 04:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I can see how it might promote Smashboards, but the rest seem to be written as matters-of-fact. They describe in a neutral manner the following:
  1. A tournament which gave out a record-breaking cash prize.
  2. A tournament which spanned 30 States and two other countries.
  3. Melee's addition to several notable rosters, including Major League Gaming, which have been featured on notable sources such as Nintendo Power and even MTV.
  4. Ken Hoang, who is apparently a notable gamer according to the existence of his article in the midst of Wikipedia's notability policies.
Apart from the triviality of the Sonic rumor and the non-blatant advertising tone in regards to Smashborads, the entire thing is in NPOV. Besides, how can you advertise the generic "tournament play"? Advertisement refers to specific companies/products, not to abstract concepts. You Can't See Me! 07:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
The size and strength of the community today is more than enough to warrant a tournament section; I'm taking that tag off right now. I don't believe anyone at SmashBoards has much to gain from "advertising" on Wikipedia. —Randall00 Talk 03:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how this section seems like an advertisement everything is written from a neutral POV. 204.52.215.128 04:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

wavedashing

"Wavedashing" redirects here, yet there is no mention of it. I'm in a weird mood today. I've never heard of this "wavedashing". I'd be interested to hear what it is. --Buddy13 21:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Wavedashing is a relatively unencyclopedic aspect of the game - and an original (fan-made, at least) term as well. All it is involves abusing the game's physics system (which is not a glitch, but I doubt that the designers intended for the system to be exploited in that manner) to slide quickly along the ground in one direction. Basically, the article on Wavedashing was unencyclopedic technical cruft without any reliable sources, and so it was redirected here without mention. You Can't See Me! 23:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
[2] --Clyde (talk) 01:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wavedashing for detail. Current history: Somoene created it last year, redirected as a result. Alternatively, we could WP:SALT it to prevent recreation. hbdragon88 04:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

STAGES

could you add a list of all the stages, standard and secret. kinda like the smashwiki site, but i need the info at school for the website im creating and the smash wiki is blocked... thanks if u can add!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.62.169.58 (talk) 14:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but no, we can't. Smashwiki is a specialized guide; Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia. They have completely different content. You Can't See Me! 22:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

What happened???

Why was the main article deleted? Mistake? Rogue sysop? --HeroicJay 00:25, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Somebody placed personal information on the article, which was then stuck on the page's history. An admin is cleansing the history of the revisions with that personal information per this report, filed by yours truly. You Can't See Me! 00:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah. Got it. --HeroicJay 00:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Was it vandalism? --Parrothead1983 20:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Something like that. Somebody thought it would be funny to put down his friend's home address and phone number (in addition to a few vulgar sentences). You Can't See Me! 00:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Playable Characters

I notice that in the playable characters section it says there are twenty six characters. Then, directly next to that, there is a screen shot with twenty five characters that says "All 25 characters unlocked." 75.68.74.43 17:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

It's correct. Sheik is the twenty sixth character, and she doesn't have her own space on the screen shot because she's a transformation of Zelda. Dengarde ► Complaints 17:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:MeleeCharacters.jpg

Image:MeleeCharacters.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 03:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Rationale just added. Ashnard Talk Contribs 15:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think this would be a better image. — NES Boy 19:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Information regarding "clone" characters

Pichu's profile on the Melee Dojo page has some interesting background information on the six characters that are considered "clone characters" (namely, Dr. Mario, Young Link, Ganondorf, Falco, Pichu, and Roy). Someone should make a decent and accurate translation of it. It would be a very nice addition to this article's "development and release" section. — NES Boy 19:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll look into it. Thanks for pointing that out, NES Boy. Ashnard Talk Contribs 20:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)



Small Mistake in Rewards

Screwattack Ranked SSBM the 2ND Best Fighter, Mortal Kombat Was No.3, Should I change it? 244pupil6 01:43, 09 November 2007

You can do that, although I probably won't be including that when I rewrite the "Reception" secion. Ashnard Talk Contribs 08:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://www.gotfrag.com/cs/story/10451/
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