|WikiProject Lithuania||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|WikiProject Poland||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|This page was nominated for deletion on 18 April 2008. The result of the discussion was no consensus.|
- 1 Old talk
- 2 Fully falsificated rubbish
- 3 Disputed?
- 4 Merge
- 5 Suvalkai? When such name of the region was used?
- 6 Merge 2
- 7 Lithuanian majority ? Not supported by the references given.
- 8 Translation required
- 9 Two sources claim Lithuanians weren't a majority in Sejny
- 10 Refs needed for Suvalkai Region
- 11 Propaganda
1. Typical numbers given for Lithuanian minority in Poland are 20 - 25 thousands. Representatives of the minority may sometimes give larger numbers, but still no more than 30 thousands. Of those about 10 000 live in northernmost part of Suwalki land, the rest is scattered all over Poland, mostly in bigger cities. Punskas/Punsk is a tiny town of about 2000 people - and that's the only town with Lithuanian majority, not "an example". Lithuanian-Polish lingusitic border in the area settled about the end of 18th century less or more where it is now, so with Suwalki and Augustow definetly on Polish side.
2. Final incorporation of the region into Poland had nothing to do with the Vilnius issue - it was incorporatrd immediately as Lithuanian troops were pushed out of it (for the second time)in the summer of 1920. It obviously wasn't part of Central Lithuania, as it is in completely different area. Polish-Lithuanian border in the area was drawn according to the initial proposals of Western Powers ("Foch line") and - contrary to Zeligowski's seizing of Vilnius - was easily accepted by international community.
3. The overall usefulness of this article - rather badly written and full of weasel terms - is doubtful. Already existing articles on Suwalki, Sudovia and Suwalki Voivodship might have their history parts extended. Polish-Lithuanian War could tell more about fights in the area. There is really no purpose of entries about paper provinces.
"According to Lithuanians, it consisted of few apskritys:" - Does it mean, that existence of territorial units is a matter of opinion? Actually Lithuanian troops occupied the discussed area twice for a few weeks each time, on both ocassions having to face local resistance. Maybe it would be better to write on what they REALLY managed to organise during those short periods?
" Augustavo Apskritis, Suvalkų Apskritis, Seinų Apskritis" - these are all red links - does it mean there will be more of this stuff?
"despite of Lithuanian minority" - maybe "because Lithuanians are a minority there" would be more logical?
Edited part about Vilnius region - it meant that both were occupied about the same time, not that they were joined together or such. Region around Punkas has Lithuanian majority too as far as I understand (80%-84% of Lithuanians applies to Punk district), although those villages are even smaller. It would be interesting if it would be possible to get any unbiased interwar sources on number of Lithuanians in area, but probably that is impossble. I assume the percentages lowered since the interwar because of migration to cities and also moving people e.g. to newly built factories or such, so for examle Seiny/ai where Lithuanians makes 30%-40% now could also have had Lithuanian majority by then and such. But these are speculations, I am not claiming it did nor I written it in article. To neutralise it I however moved the reference to numbers to the interwa, not why it is now not claimed; and left just the fact that it is not claimed by Lithuania now. I think the article is ndeed useful however: this territory was claimed by Lithuania for whole interwar, and IMO all disputed territories especially when they were disputed for like 20 years are worth an article. Maybe as I understand in Poland this is less mentioned or important, but wikipedia is international. Existance of territorial units is a matter of opinion in disputed territories, e.g. Pakistan diviodes whole Kashmir to Northern Territories and Azad Kashmir (major part of which is occupied by India), while India considers it all, including Pakistani-annexed parts, to be part of Jammu and Kashmir state. If you know how (into which administrational units) the area was divided by Poland, please add that to article. The articles about apskritys might be written once, if I will have time to write articles about all the interwar divisions of Lithuania, same as it is e.g. done for historical voivodships of Poland.DeirYassin 07:08, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes. There are wikipedia articles about historical territorial units. THE HISTORICAL TERRITORIAL UNITS WHICH ACTUALLY EXISTED, not some propaganda inventions, which - worse - were described here as if they existed. If I remember correctly, Lithuanian units NEVER reached Augustow, so "Augustavo Apskritis" was pure fantasy. No offence intended, but in the same manner we could write article on Kowno voivodship - some political forces in inter-war Poland advocated finishing "Lithuanian problem" by annexation of the whole republic and creating such a unit.
Numbers and distribution of Lithuanian population in the area in the interwar period were roughly similar to what is now - there is quite a lot of things on the subject written by actual members of the minority, most notably a historian Bronisław Makowski/Bronius Makauskas. I think some of his work could be available in Lithuania.
If you kindly look at some map, you'll see that the Punsk nad Sejny region - the area in which the Lithuanian villages can be found - is itself a very small, northernmost part of the whole territory discussed here.
I still believe, that Lithuanian-Polish conflict in Suwalki land should be described in wider context of the area's history and not in small and one sided articles like this one.
Anyway - made some changes to the article and removed disputed territories cat. - as you mention yourself "it is no longer claimed". I suppose it would be generally advisable for you to show more caution when using terms like 'occupied' or 'disputed' when describing current European affaires.
It was a real territorial claim, not propaganda invention. And I think it would be ok to create article on Kowno Voivodship too, as an idea by some Polish politicians of the time and comment reasons, etc. there. There is similar article about Republic of New Africa for example, which never was real but some black nationalists wants to carve it out of parts of USA where black concentration is the highest. And official claims are even more notable, as one of Wikipedia policies says, wikipedia is not paper so it can contain way more articles. Besides, Seinų Apskritis was real for sure, part of it was in territory of Lithuania-proper and so it functioned, which it's capital "temporary" located at Lazdijai. Parts of other two Apskritis were controlled too most likely at some time, even if capital Augustavas was not. As for one-sideness of artcile, it can be edited. I added a bit more info to the article too now, after you edited I guess it can be considered NPOV so removing that. And I dont know, but couldnt disuputed territories category be used for territories, which were disputed in past, too? DeirYassin 12:02, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was a real territorial claim, not propaganda invention - there is no contradiction here - governements normally use propaganda to back their perfectly real claims. Publishing maps containing non-existent borders and non-functioning territorial units IS by definition a case of propaganda , whether one agrees with particular claims or not. In social science propaganda is a neutral therm and should be used as such.
couldnt disuputed territories category be used for territories, which were disputed in past - don't know if it couldn't, but it looks currently it's not. In addition the list would quickly became huge and unusable, if one really tried to enumerate everything ever disputed.
As for the article - I believe it is acceptable now.
As I said many times, the map is inaccurate, it does not shows real Lithuanian claims, but includes lots more territories to the south than Lithuania really claimed. Furthermore, it doesnt shows where exactly is Suwalki region either. If you want maybe I'll be able to scan a map of real claims and such and e-mail it to you (if my online e-mail will allow me to send atatchment of that size). Also, the territory is Suvalkai region because, as I said, it wasnt anyhow defined by Poles, and therefore the name has meaning only if it is used as a name for the claimed area; and this claimed area used the Lithuanian name for the town. Usage of Suwalki area in same article might seem that it is some different administrative or territorial unit of the time, not that it is the same as Suvalkai region as the article is called. DeirYassin 10:14, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- Well, the map is based on a map published by the Lithuanian government on its site lietuva.lt, so I suppose it should be pretty accurate (here). As to your map - it would be pretty nice, but it doesn't show neither the actual borders (some strange mixture of 1920's with 1990's) nor the cities. I say we should leave both maps. Of course, I'd be happy to receive a better map from you, you could send it through yousendit.com.
- Lastly, how come the area was not defined by Poles? It was defined by the Polish government as Powiat of Suwałki and, contrary to Lithuanian names for the non-existing units of administrative division, the name was in use ever since. And if we mention Suvalkija, we should also give the reader a chance to learn what the actual names are. Same with Wilno, which is always mentioned as "Wilno (currently Vilnius)". Halibutt 10:20, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
- That map is accurate, but it is not a map of Lithuanian claims, it is a map of situation during the war, the dates 1915-1918 are claerly stated. And it shows the territories of German control, I dont know how they are called in English, not independent Lithuania. In legend bellow it states such things as frontline, zone of skirmishes, other "regions" such as Courland. Did the borders of Suwalki powiat were identical to the borders of Suvalkai region (Lithuanian claim on northeast Poland))?DeirYassin 10:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- Well, the context this map is used in suggests something completely different, as it is posted here, directly beneath the description of declaration of Lithuanian independence in 1917. But anyway, if this reflects the wishes of some Lithuanian authorities, then it is a map of Lithuanian claims, be it on Poland, Germany or any other state. And what's even more important, it is posted on that site, which is quite official. Halibutt 11:33, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Lithuanian claims were delimited, as I said by peace treaty with Soviet Russia, they were official claims. Lithuanian authorities considered Lithuania to be as it was with claimed territories. Parts which were not under control were considered occupied by Poland, but still pars of Lithuania. So, Lithuanian eastern and southern borders were only considered to be the border of Vilnius and Suvalkai regions. And, of course, as those were the official borders, they were dilimited. They even had administrative divisions in them and such. The borders I placed on map were exact (the southern border went along Nemunas), all of historical maps of interwar I seen gives this border. Maybe the place where that map is posted there is misplaced. In which map current borders are marked? It seems that current borders are marked on all historical maps of interwar (and sometimes Imperial Russian) Lithuania which I have seen. Many historical books and atlases even e.g. marks such things as national information, cultural activities under czar and such in current Lithuania's borders, instead of actual interwar borders or claimed interwar borders. It seems this might be a remaining thing of Soviet propaganda that it is revanshistic and fascistic to look back to those lost territories, and, similarly, that all Lithuanian SSR (and only Lithuanian SSR) is the homeland of all Lithuanians in the world. This was the policy toweards all national units in USSR. So now, probably cause of it still, current borders are always shown instead of borders then (as for GDL maps however, current borders arent shown). The only real map in modern Lithuania which showed the territories as occupied territories was issued in 2000 I believe in a book called "Lietuvio kalendorius" ("Lithuanian calendar"), which was banned subsequently.DeirYassin 11:52, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- These were not borders since they were never delimited by a joint state commission, which is the prerequisite of border recognition in international law. These were areas claimed by Lithuania, not areas occupied by anyone. There is a difference.
- Also, I thought we were speaking about Suwałki/Suvalkai, not about northern Belarus (which Lithuanians apparently call Eastern Vilnius). In any way, the southern border of the said area (be it claim or occupation zone) could not be Neman River since... it doesn't flow south of Suwałki. Check your sources... Anyway, usage of current borders clearly suggests that the matter is still not settled. I suggest we prepared a more detailed map with original borders. Just send me the materials and I will make a decent map for you. Halibutt 12:21, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
I meant claimed territory in general (both Vilnius region and Suvalkai region). Matter is settled, as I said current borders are imposed on historical maps so it would seem that "real Lithuania" is supposedly just in these borders, while supposedly the claims were just claims not real Lithuania. Also frequently Soviet propaganda is repeated that supposedly Lithuania regained Vilnius region in 1939 as if that would be whole Vilnius region. I found the map similar tio the one you linked to, that seem sto be map of Oberost zone of Germans, except Courland. E-mailed maps to firstname.lastname@example.org .DeirYassin 13:38, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- The map definitely shows something different than Ober Ost since, apart from other obvious differences, the Ober Ost included as well the fortresses in Brest and Kobryn, as well as modern Latvia. Halibutt 14:29, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
Fully falsificated rubbish
Fully falsificated rubbish, made of course by marazmatic Hello-but. Zivinbudas 15:43, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
- Is there anything you actually dispute or is it simply yet another example of your complexes? Halibutt 16:06, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
- There seems to have been no disputing since February, so I will remove the tag. Cowman109Talk 01:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yup, I forgot about this one - hence the tag stayed so long. Anyway, as this article is about a fictional/proposed region, why not merge it with some other article on the topic and have one better article instead of two? I was thinking of Suwałki County, as both areas are more or less equal - and this history section would perfectly fit there. What do you think? //Halibutt 06:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Suvalkai? When such name of the region was used?
If Vilnius region then Suwałki region. Xx236 16:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
This orphaned, unreferenced article, without equivalent on Lithuanian wiki, should be merged into Sudovia. Both articles are about the same subject, no need to have a fork.-- 19:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
- I have opposed and listed my arguments on proper article talk, M.K. (talk) 10:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
For ther record, there is a larger discussion and vote at Talk:Sudovia#Merger.-- 18:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Lithuanian majority ? Not supported by the references given.
Of all the references none as far as I see speak anything about "Lithuanian majority", they only speak about Lithuanians living there, and make no claim about them being majority or minority. The Lithuanian one I can't read. Does anybody have Polish census data ?--Molobo (talk) 17:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
- Consider reading this , it's official page of Lithuanian Embassy in Poland. Strange enough it was removed twice, and two first sentences are rather informative.--Lokyz (talk) 12:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- ^ (Lithuanian) Lankininkaitė, Rūta. "Seinų lietuviai jaučiasi skriaudžiami", 2007-03-11. Retrieved on 2008-04-2. (Lithuanian) "Lenkijos lietuvių bendruomenės vadovai sako, jog Seinų krašte viskas, kas susiję su lietuvių kultūros paveldo išsaugojimu, sunkiai skinasi kelią."
Two sources claim Lithuanians weren't a majority in Sejny
- From what I read, Lithuanians might have been a majority in the countryside (peasants), but the towns and cities were mostly Polish. Perhaps this is a source of the confusion? -- 18:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- Please WP:CITE what you read. None of those provided links claim - Lithuanians are not majority in the region. As a matter "Kaluski" link does not load at all (and it does not seem to be accademic source - miesięcznik polityczny Internautów * oryginał edycji www.geocities.com/nowamirror).
- Furthermore I do not understand, why references, that clearly notes ethnographic Lithuanian traditions of the region, were removed?--Lokyz (talk) 12:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Refs needed for Suvalkai Region
Practically all of the article repeats the facts from the history of general region (Sudovia=Suwalszczyzna=Suwałki Region). Refs are needed to 1) make clear that Suvalkai Region is different and 2) show that Suvalkai Region is the word used in context of various issues discussed in the article; otherwise, instances of "Suvalkai Region" should be changed to "Sudovia" (and the article merged, as discussed above).--18:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)