Talk:Syrian Civil War

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Text under the Victims of the Ghouta chemical attack photo is incorrect[edit]

Under the photograph it says "Victims of the Ghouta chemical attack carried out by government forces".

Who was the perpetrator of the chemical attack is unclear and is widely disputed: Ghouta chemical attack

The Final UN Mission report about the event also does not determine the perpetrator of the attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.125.151 (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Provided evidence of the support of the Turkish military forces (for artillery fire large caliber) and the purchase oil off the terrorists.)[edit]

Provided evidence of the support of the Turkish military forces (for artillery fire large caliber) and the purchase oil off the terrorists.)

Jump up ^ https://russian.rt.com/article/145541 Jump up ^ http://lifenews.ru/news/182947 Jump up ^ http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1579521/video/

References


The map shouldn't show sparsely populated deserts as under control of any of the belligerents[edit]

Deserts make up most of the land in Eastern and South Eastern Syria. No armed group can control deserts, there's simply nothing there to control. Perhaps there's a fortress here and there, or a town by a river, and these could be marked as under control of whoever controls, but the area around them shouldn't. Tahrir al-Sham should be colored blue and sparsely populated deserts white.

Israeli involvement in the Syrian Civil War[edit]

This article nowhere mentions that Israel has been supporting the Syrian opposition for years; with cash, humanitarian assistance, food deliveries and occasional military actions. The Wall Street Journal wrote about that in a lengthy and detailed article circa 2 weeks ago > [1]. Also, ISIS apologized to Israel for "mistaken" attack and vowed to never attack again > [2][3].

I agree it even needs to be listed in the infobox as a belligerent, but some editors think they have found a loophole by claiming Israel is not actually participating in this war, and that their clashes are part of some separate conflict only between Israel and the Syrian government/Hezbollah. Which is reaching quite a bit, especially given the direct help for the rebels and coordination. FunkMonk (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
My understanding of the situation is that Israel is for anyone (Russian, American, or otherwise) who is fighting against the extremists, ISIS. Since Israel is not directly involved in this conflict, there is no reason to mention Israel, especially when those presenting Israel's case are often biased.Davidbena (talk) 19:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Israel doesn't give a damn about ISIS, it isn't a threat to them. The Israeli Defence minister has said "In Syria, if the choice is between Iran and the Islamic State, I choose the Islamic State".[4] They're only afraid of Iran and Hezbollah, that's why they support Syrian rebels and bomb the government side again and again. FunkMonk (talk) 19:56, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Little do you know. I live in Israel, and there is nothing that concerns us more than Arab extremism/terrorism. Of course, Syria (an arch-rival and enemy of the Jewish State) has not, in recent history, instigated any wars against Israel, and now that they're pinned-down in this ongoing conflict, we can expect the situation to remain so for a long time to come. Of course, if given the choice between a war with Iran and a war with ISIS, ISIS would be the easier of the two. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 20:03, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Doesn't matter what you or I think we know when the Israeli defence minister himself states he prefers ISIS over Iran and Hezbollah. And it doesn't change the fact that Israel is helping the very Islamic extremists in Syria that they are apparently so "concerned" about.[5][6] FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Your Wall Street Journal reports that Israel has been, for years, carving out a buffer zone populated by friendly forces. So what's wrong with giving food, fuel and medical supplies to people on the border? Do you really believe this is tantamount to waging a war against the Syrian nation? You see, you've taken this editorial just a little bit too far. Of course, if Israel should feel threatened or is attacked, Israel will defend itself.Davidbena (talk) 21:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
It means Israel is both arming a side of the conflict and attacking the forces that side is fighting. That makes it a part of the conflict. FunkMonk (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Israel never attacks an enemy, unless it first feels threatened or else it is being attacked. This does not make Israel a party in the current conflict (Civil War), but rather, Israel is doing what she has always done.Davidbena (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
That sounds like special pleading. FunkMonk (talk) 21:22, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
History speaks for itself. Besides, you have no consensus, not to mention any "reliable sources," to add here that Israel is a party to the current conflict.Davidbena (talk) 21:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
I showed you reliable sources that state Israel provides weapons and money to Syrian rebel groups while attacking the Syrian government. What else does it take to be part of a conflict? FunkMonk (talk) 21:34, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
You showed a source that equates Israel's defense posture (when threatened) with actual military involvement in the current conflict. By the dupes of words artfully framed, that article seeks to mislead the simple-minded and naive.Davidbena (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Ok, can you then explain what action would make Israel part of the conflict in your view? Or is Israel just never able to do wrong? FunkMonk (talk) 08:38, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree that Israel does not really (in earnest) view ISIL as a threat, as they know very well who is behind it. Besides, we have already a perfectly islamic state, whose judicial practice is virtually the same as Daesh; that state has just bribed Us gov with a few $ hundred billion to keep every one involved happy... But that is indeed beside the point here, as FunkMonk has pointed up. The issue of how Israel should be treated for the purposes of this article is worth attention, as well as the US, BTW. I already sectioned out the US as a ″belligerent″, but not in the infobox -- am just a bit coy about editing these juggernauts. I think, we ought to look at things in the broad scheme of things, encyclopedically, to coin a phrase. Amnot an expert, but the basics, I suppose, are these: Syria and Israel have always been and are at war (Israel–Syria relations), in a legal/technical sense, in terms of international law, that is. Thus, Israel is indeed a belligerent in that sense. The question is whether this fact is relevant to the subject this article is about. If attacks continue and we have some formal statements on that from Israel, I think we need to adjust accordingly.Axxxion (talk) 20:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I think this charade has gone on long enough. Even the Wall Street Journal is now reporting on lethal Israeli aid for five rebel groups, a few of them associated for the Free Syrian Army. I've added the info to the infobox. It's absolutely ridiculous to take the position that the Israeli support is somehow part of a "separate conflict" with some Syrian government-allied forces that's completely unrelated to the Syrian Civil War. Esn (talk) 01:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, it is getting ridiculous indeed. FunkMonk (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Besides, i created a new section in Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War#Israel, on the basis of what has been provided by colleagues here. Please contribute.Axxxion (talk) 15:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Nice, also needs mention of the continuous bombing of government forces. FunkMonk (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

The WSJ report (who got its info from the rebels) is probably reliable. Syrians probably have an unfavorable view of Israel, so the Syrian rebels would not say that they are receiving help from Israel unless it's true.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The WSJ report doesn't indicate lethal support provided by Israel, but rather emphasizes provision of food, medicine, cash and fuel - all not lethal, but rather humanitarian assistance items. There is no "big news" here - Israelis provide humanitarian support for several years into rebel held areas, as many other countries. This is not belligerency.GreyShark (dibra) 13:08, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

I understand including Israel as an entity in the Civil War but I think claiming it as supporting the rebels is a bit misleading. It is clear that Israel is against the Syrian regime and has launched airstrikes against it but they have not done so in support of the Free Syrian Army or any other rebel group. They should at most be included as a co-belligerent of the rebels.72.90.157.229 (talk) 18:14, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Someone completly removed Israel from the infobox despite the facts and sourced material. Clearly some people have an agenda to "prove" 'that Israel does nothing in Syria, whilst the country clearly supports the rebels and attacks military targets assosictaed with the legitimate Syrian government and its allies. Israel provides cash, aid, fuel, treats wounded rebels in hospitals, and attacks Syrian tanks/ armored vehicles whenever there's government offensive near the internationally recognized occupied Syrian Golan Heights. Israel does have a business in Syria and it does support the rebels associated with the FSA. IDF also crossed border with Syria on multiple occasions. Lie as much as you want, but nobody can deny the facts that Israel is an active participant in the conflict acting against the government in Damascus. If Israel is not a belligerent, then Iran isn't either. Iranian focres are not in Syria and there is no military support for either side. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.72.109 (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Comment - recent assessment of Israeli humanitarian aid for Syrians can be found at Myths and misconceptions about Israel and Syrian rebels on the Golan. The researcher al-Tamimi clearly indicates that the "aid" to Syrian rebels includes sctricly humanitarian items, with diesel fuel used to power water pumps.GreyShark (dibra) 07:28, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment This is getting beyond ridiculous. The Israeli flag is not mentioned among the involved nations, while the flags of Netherland or Norway is? ROTFL! Huldra (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment - Mossad is clearly trying to prevent wikipedia from adding their country to the war template for the Syrian Civil War on the FSA rebel side. AHC300 (talk) 10:44, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Hilarious!GreyShark (dibra) 16:41, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Belligerents and Foreign involvement sections[edit]

Do we really need a section for foreign involvement when a lot of the foreign parties are already described in the Belligerents section (e.g. Russia, Iran, US-led coalition)? I think the Foreign Involvement section should be merged into the Belligerents section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree - let's make foreign involvement into sub-topic of the belligerents section and tweak it down to minimum.GreyShark (dibra) 13:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Eages of the Whirlwind[edit]

It's the militia of the Syrian Social National Party, a Ba'ath ally/client party. The militia has about 6,000 to 8,000 troops https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/28/the-eagles-of-the-whirlwind/ and is increasing in importance as the Syrian government needs to draw the countries Christians into the armed forces. Eagles of the Whirlwind. Should be listed as a major Pro-SAA belligerent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.206.228 (talk) 05:20, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

File:Eagles of the Whirlwind logo.jpg File:Flag of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party.svg— Preceding unsigned comment added by Martan32 (talkcontribs) 05:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

RfC[edit]

Should the Israeli flag be included in the Main belligerent section? Huldra (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Include the Israeli flag, Huldra (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Isreal is not a belligerent. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. At the current, published, involvement level it is just the "usual" meddling/play that occurs between wars. Israel is definitely less involved than Turkey - even pre 2016 Turkey (Turkey more or less from the get go was heavily supporting Turkmen and Islamist forces, including movement and supply on Turkish soil). The current involvement level may barely be classified as support. This may change very quickly, but it has not yet. It is also less involved in supply than Saudi and Qatari material support for the Sunni forces, and they are not listed.Icewhiz (talk) 04:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose.this gets brought up every few months, it gets rejected and nothing has changed. Israel treats wounded fighters and as per their standard operating procedure long before the SCW bombs weapons headed to Lebenon they spot in Syria. None of that makes them a belligerent in the syrian civil war. Legacypac (talk) 09:51, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Israel is not a belligerent in the current Syrian Civil war.Davidbena (talk) 15:53, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - Israel supports Syrian rebels financially and medically while attacking pro-government forces every other week, these are indisputable facts. But it may be a good idea to wait for opinions for editors who are not either Israeli or Arabs (uninvolved). The votes so far are pretty predictable. FunkMonk (talk) 15:56, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
    Support is different than direct involvement. Declared support is medical, RS speculation (probably true) is logistics, intel, and some material. However material support by other actors in the region has been much more significant. Fire is also far from every other week (during major rebel offensives - perhaps - for most of the past 2 years - no). The major Israeli air-force / long-range rocket attacks - are less than 10 throughout the entire conflict - and are supposedly limited to Hezbollah conveys carrying advanced arms to Lebanon. Beyond that - it is sporadic low-intensity fire - the Israeli military claims mortar/artillery rounds landed in Israel (and I will note that skeptic observers, in Israel as well, suspect some of these are fired "by request" by the Rebels into Israel to elicit a response - but it is confirmed by RS that at least several of these are true in the sense that rounds landed in Israel (who fired - more complex with the mess in Syria)) - and then fires back with artillery/rockets taking out 1-2 positions. This fire is limited to the area close border zone, and on a "hot" day is limited to a few events - and usually doesn't occur. To put things in perspective - in 2006 Lebanon War the IDF fired some 160,000 artillery rounds and 1,800 MLRS rounds. Throughout the entire 6 year Syrian civil war the IDF fired less than 100 short range rounds (some Spike (missile) NLOS, some others), and performed less than 10 long range strikes. I don't think this is an Israeli editor POV issue - it is really a question of what consists of involvement. The current level of fire - is one the level of low intensity border skirmishes - not even close to what the IDF would do if engaged "officially".Icewhiz (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
As mentioned above - Israel has provided Humanitarian aid during the Syrian Civil War to areas on Syrian territories held by moderate rebel factions; this has included medicals, food, fuel (for water pumps). A recent overview of the situation on the Golan Heights is well described by this assessment of al-Tamimi.GreyShark (dibra) 16:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
FunkMonk's insinuation that my opinion should be disgarded is incorrect. I'm not Israeli or Arab and have never even visited either Syria or Israel. many countries have provided humanitarian aid to Syria, but we don't list them as belligerents. Israel is not shy about going to War. If they wanted to insert themselves in the SCW they would be kicking Syrian/ISIL or someone's ass. Legacypac (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Link 1 is a user generated place to collect links. Not a Reliable Source and proves nothing.
Link 2 is the WSJ article. Giving a big of cash to make friends with the armed men right across the border is just good sense.
Link 3 is an opinion piece that nicely lays out the facts but jumps to a POV conclusion. It also says China should be listed with Iran amd Russia.
Link 4 key sentence "Israel allegedly attacked the Syrian Arab Army after a shell landed in the occupied Golan Heights." ie Israel responded to an attack on land they have long controlled. Zero to do with SCW. Legacypac (talk) 11:07, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Summoned by bot The level of involvment of Israel is not enough to get to belligerent status. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 12:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. The discussion is not related to the "Belligerents" graph immediately (I suppose), but to "support". Overwhelming verifiable evidence to justify inclusion of Israel. Also, as i have noted before, Israel is at war with Syria in the most formal legal sense since 1973, or even before.Axxxion (talk) 15:39, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Sources for the Israeli involvement RfC[edit]

In order not to clutter the RfC, I will start adding sources here, which indicate the Israeli involvement. Please feel free to add other sources. Huldra (talk) 21:26, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Those sources are describing various levels of humanitarian aid. A better academic source for this is al-Tamimi.GreyShark (dibra) 18:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
"The groups use the cash to pay fighters and buy ammunition" (quote from the Independent article)...that is cash from Israel to rebel fighter groups. Just when did ammunition become "humanitarian aid"? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
First off, these 2 sources (WSJ (and Independent's coverage of it) interviews with rebels, and JPOST UN's report (which really only brings up contacts and unspecified supplies) don't establish a fact - but speculate (well-founded speculation, and speculation I (and many others) believe - but still speculation)).... But more importantly - providing ammunition, intel, cash, material support, etc - does not make one into a a main belligerent. We more or less classify belligerents on Wikipedia (and elsewhere) - based on who is doing the shooting (and how much). A belligerent would have troops in the ground, air, or sea acting in a significant capacity - this is not what is alleged here. Even the supply alleged is fairly low (even though there is less well founded, but quite probable, speculation that it is greater than alleged (based on interviews) by WSJ - it still would be low). As you may see in Yom Kippur War (US and USSR not listed as belligerents - despite massive air-lifts supplying weapon systems and ammunition to Israel and Syria respectively). Using a true proxy force (and in this case - it seems more like liaising/supporting - but not actual control) - usually will not raise one to a belligerent. If you paint your own forces with other colors and give them other uniforms - and sent them in - e.g. Black September (Syrian troops as PLA) or Bay of Pigs Invasion (CIA, US Air force, etc. - which is more borderline in terms of classification) - then, if there is consensus that is the case (which often takes years to emerge - though if contested (as it was in War in Donbass) - it might be listed on-wiki as probable for quite some time) - then you'd be listed as a belligerent. In short - giving ammo, weapon systems, food, cash, etc. - does not raise one to belligerent status. If it did - we'd have to list a whole bunch of other states in the Syrian civil war and elsewhere.Icewhiz (talk) 06:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Huldra, the whole quote is "Israel may be funding up to four other rebel groups which have Western backing. The groups use the cash to pay fighters and buy ammunition.". So, maybe Israel is funding and maybe the rebels are using - those are clearly speculations per WP:RSCONTEXT and WP:RSOPINION (same arguments as alleged North Korean involvement in Syrian War). What we do know with higher level of certainty is that Israelis provide certain humanitarian supplies to specific "moderate rebel" groups and to the pro-Asad Druze village of al-Hader [11] (via Druze community of Western Golan) in order to relieve local populations and they do treat wounded Syrians. I do not see such actions to become "solid" argument for "Israeli involvement", though in case border incidents do intensify to a point that Israelis invade into Syrian territories (whether held by Ba'ath, rebels, Nusra or ISIL) - this would be a valid point.GreyShark (dibra) 06:37, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
GreyShark, why not cite the start of the independent article, which says "The Israeli authorities have provided significant amounts of cash, food, fuel and medical supplies to Sunni rebels fighting against Bashar al-Assad’s government, the Wall Street Journal reported on Monday, citing "half a dozen rebels and three people familiar with Israel's thinking."" and "A special Israeli army unit was created to oversee the costly aid operation, the WSJ reported, which gives Fursan al-Joulan - Knights of the Golan - an estimated $5,000 (£3,900) a month. The group of around 400 fighters receives no direct support from Western rebel backers, and is not affiliated with the Free Syrian Army, the official rebel umbrella organisation."
So according to that, it Israel is for sure funding one armed opposition group, and might be funding 4 others.
Also, have you forgotten this? http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-israeli-druze-plead-guilty-in-killing-of-wounded-syrian-fighter/ Israeli Druse have attacked and killed Syrian fighters who had come to Israel for treatment. Those Syrian fighters had a rather unsavoury reputation, including killing Druse women and children in Syria,
Also, AFAIK, Israel is still nominally at war with Syria. If you believe that Israel only has a "humanitarian mission" in Syria, then I have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. You might also want to meet my good friend, the Nigerian Prince X, who needs your help to get some millions out of Nigeria? Huldra (talk) 23:19, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I have no idea what do you mean by "I have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. You might also want to meet my good friend, the Nigerian Prince X, who needs your help to get some millions out of Nigeria?". Clearly you are off-topic.GreyShark (dibra) 12:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Seriously? The actions of some Druze villagers does not make the State of Israel a combatant. Legacypac (talk) 10:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Did you read the source? The Druze villagers attacked because the people were Syrian fighters. Do you seriously think they would have attacked...sending themselves to Israeli jails for years...if they hadn't known that the wounded men in the Israeli ambulances were Syrian fighters? If you do, then I still have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell! Huldra (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Druze villagers lynching severely wounded Sunni fighters who were transferred by military ambulance to hospital - that is not a sign of involvement - that is humanitarian assistance (which angered Druze in the Golan and the Galilee (there was a failed lynching in the Galilee) - as the Sunnis were pressuring Hadar). I'll note that other RS (including I believe WSJ) have indicated that Israeli is also providing some assistance to Hadar (the Druze village on the Syrian side of the line) recently. All groups mentioned by WSJ are fairly small and local.Icewhiz (talk) 11:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
No, it does not "indicated that Israeli is also providing some assistance", it clearly says "The Israeli authorities have provided significant amounts of cash, food, fuel and medical supplies to Sunni rebels fighting against Bashar al-Assad’s government." Why, oh why is it that suddenly people are not able to read English anymore? Huldra (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
I am able to read English. And I actually follow just about every media (and I'll not also less reputable, though often informative, social media), in English, Arabic, and Hebrew report on Syria, as part of my day job. The support indicated by WSJ is a very small cash contribution and some supplies. Less reputable sources (though I will note I am inclined to believe them) indicate a bit more. However this is far from belligerent status, which would entail at the very least significant Israeli fire at Syria. Most Israelis woild not have a problem in intervening in Syria if there were a clear gain from it, but this simply has not happend. All there is is a fairly low level of support, very minor cross border fire, and once in a blue moon an airstrike.Icewhiz (talk) 04:02, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
To be clear the WSJ article (which relays information from interviews with half a dozen alleged rebel fighters - so interesting, but not a statement of fact) has a claim by a rebel leader that his small village group is receiving 5,000$ a month from Israel. This isn't even peanuts - it is crumbs. The Fursan al-Julan group has 400 fighters (per WSJ), and the four other groups referenced by WSJ have per WSJ 400 more fighters (so 800 total) - which is a very-very small local Syrian organization. This is not a level of significant support, and it is definitely not something that places Israel as a belligerent.Icewhiz (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
I would imagine that in a war torn country, goods would at least as useful, or more useful, than money. So even if 5,000$ a month is a tiny sum (I agree), that only leaves significant amounts of food, fuel and medical supplies ..to quote the article. Not to mention the airstrikes (some mention below), which I assume do not come for free, Huldra (talk) 23:47, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Significant to whom..... To Israel not. To the small amount of villagers remaining in war torn Syria (in the Syrian Golan which was sparse to begin with), where an ethnic cleansing campaign is undergoing against Sunnies, it is probably most significant (as stated by sources). It is even of some military significance - as the Syrian regime has been attempting to starve out some of these Sunni settlements (and has succeeded elsewhere). However - supplying food, or even arms, is support at most - and does not make one a belligerent. The airstrikes against Hezbollah conveys are a separate matter - and Israel has carried out airstrikes in Syria in the past, not during war time - e.g. Ain es Saheb airstrike or the 1960s water project bombings - and these are allegedly directed at targets not related to the war (arms buildup of Hezbollah). The current level of alleged support does not even raise to significant supports - all the credible RSes are alleging less than peanuts - crumbs. And even claims in non-RS do not rise so much beyond this (perhaps a covert involvement, but covert - is covert - not formal). Had Israel been formally involved - there would be a much more significant firing of projectiles - e.g. see the mass of fire in the various Gaza wars/operations or Lebanon 2006.Icewhiz (talk) 05:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
They might be insignificant to Israel, but they are clearly significant to the rebels! And there are lots more sources covering the Israeli involvement than say, the Dutch, or the Norwegian involvement. Still these two countries are listed as "Main belligerents", while Israel is not, LOL! Its articles like this which make Wikipedia appear like a joke..Huldra (talk) 23:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Significant only to minor Sunni very local rebel groups in the Syrian Golan adjacent to Israeli turf - and not the main rebel groups in more populated areas (e.g. eastern Damascus and elsewhere). The Dutch have comitted an F-16 squadron - which is quite a bit of firepower - for daily operations over Iraq and Syria (mainly vs. Islamic State) - this is quite a bit more firepower than Israel has used.Icewhiz (talk) 18:54, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
See also: [12][13][14][15][16]. GABgab 23:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
This is clearly referring to the Iran-Israel proxy conflict during the Syrian War. Most of the alleged incidents are not directly linked with Israel, but are suggested to be so. With 8 Air Force fleets operating in the skyes of Syria, it is a very long shot to claim which bombing was done by Israelis, while tens of thousands of airstrikes are performed by Ba'athist SAA, US, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser degree others, like Jordan, UK, UAE, Saudia.GreyShark (dibra) 12:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

North Korea military involvement[edit]

In 2016, there were reports that DPRK troops were fighting to defend the Syrian government in the Syrian Civil War. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/03/25/are-north-koreans-fighting-in-syria-its-not-as-far-fetched-as-it-sounds/?utm_term=.c6de84dac035 AHC300 (talk) 10:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

The source doesn't indicate Korean involvement, but rather offers a theory. This is not WP:NOTABLE.GreyShark (dibra) 16:51, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
And of course this is WP:RSOPINION, not a fact.GreyShark (dibra) 06:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Sunni factor[edit]

Practically from the very beginning this article (and countless others on English Wikipedia) states that the war in Syria is between the Sunni majority and the Alawite minority government. But this notion is very misleading due to the complex structure of relations within the country itself. Assad does enjoy wide support among many of the Sunni Syrians. Chris Zambelis writing in 2015 for the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point analysed the topic here > [17], for example, he concludes that Sunni Syrians are ,,well represented" in the National Defence Forces (Syria), and that ,,estimates indicate that Sunnis account for between 60 and 65 percent of the regular army." He also mentions that Shabiha was composed of many Sunnis. Another source, namely Thanassis Cambanis writing in 2015 for Foreign Policy touched upon that too > [18]. Edward Dark writing in 2014 for Al-Monitor pointed out that it was the pro-government Sunnis in Aleppo that stopped the rebel offensive, which caused the city not to be overrun [19]. The Times of Israel reported in June 2014 that individuals interviewed in a "Sunni-dominated, middle-class neighborhood of central Damascus" claimed wide support for Assad [20]. Various Sunnis in position of power, also remained loyal to the government, for example; Wael Nader al-Halqi, Fahd Jassem al-Freij, Walid Muallem, Mohammad al-Shaar, Asma al-Assad and many others. Organizations that rely heavly on Sunnis are, for example; Ba'ath Brigades, Liwa al-Quds, NDF, Shabiha, Syrian Arab Army (for example, the 4th Mechanized Division is entirely composed and led by Sunnis [21]). Chris Zambelis himself pointed out that the alleged secterian nature of the Syrian conflict largely remains thanks to the salafis and their propaganda. I think that this article should be rewritten to include non-bias narrative free of personal agendas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.72.109 (talk) 03:28, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality of introductory section?[edit]

I'm questioning the quote:

"The unrest in Syria, part of a wider wave of 2011 Arab Spring protests, grew out of discontent with the Assad government and escalated to an armed conflict after protests calling for his removal were violently suppressed."

This is a single perspective interpretation of the course of events in the Syrian war, and it is presented as absolute, immutable fact. The cited source of the quote cherry-picks facts and events to present, with no consideration of other issues - like outside-state sponsored terrorism (which, coincidentally, is quite similar to what's happening in the United States right now as concerns Antifa) as causative factors.

I'm not against this statement being true, if that were the case, but I believe it is insufficiently established as firm fact and should not be presented as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.235.243 (talk) 11:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Rv, why[edit]

How is a book review rs for such contentious claims? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:21, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The source above is not a "book review," just as Seymour Hersh's account of "The Killing of Osama bin Laden," also in the London Review of Books, is not a book review. The reliability of the London Review of Books is not seriously open to question (ask WP:RSN if you disagree), and, for whatever it's worth, Flynn has publicly expressed many of the same sentiments he did when interviewed by Hersh. In addition, Hersh's central claims have all been corroborated by other media reports (e.g., [22]) and declassified U.S. government documents (e.g., [23]). This long-standing content was deleted by an IP with no discussion on the talk page, and I would like to see a better rationale for deletion than dismissing Hersh as a mere "book reviewer."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:47, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Don't be fooled by the name - London Review of Books is not (only) a book review. It is a publication that only runs in-depth essays. Seymour Hersh specifically is a highly noted journalist, specifically in LRB he is noted for [24]. Investigative journalism is dying in many places, this is not one of them (as long as it is running).Icewhiz (talk) 20:52, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Review, or essay, that source cannot be used for statements of fact as it currently is. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:26, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Of course it can; you can go to WP:RSN if you disagree, or you should self-revert. The LRB is in fact one of the very best sources that could be cited in this article.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2017 (UTC)