Talk:Taiwan

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Former good article Taiwan was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Stock post message.svg Taiwan Article Guidelines


The following guidelines have been established by consensus and convention:

  1. Simplified Chinese shall remain in the linguistics infobox per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language)#Simplified and Traditional
  2. Please do not add Simplified characters and tongyong pinyin to the country infobox.
  3. Please refrain from adding "(Taiwan)" all over the article as this article includes substantial information about the Republic of China prior to the Republic of China on Taiwan/Taiwan post-war era.
edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Taiwan:
  • Improve article based on feature article review
  • Add a short section about the culture and the geography of the ROC territories (with links to the main articles)
  • Review alt text of images
  • Should the role and influence of Sun Yat-sen be introduced in the History section?

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2015[edit]

Please remove "and / or Chinese" from the Demonym. A demonym is a name given to natives or residents of a certain or specific place, rather than the region to which this place belongs. This is an article on Taiwan. Be it a part of China or not, the demonym should be Taiwanese. Some people might think Taiwanese are Chinese, but it is because ROC claims all China to be its territory, not because Taiwan is equal to China. To say that the demonym can be Chinese is like saying that the demonym for the people of Turkey can be European. Lysimachi (talk) 16:15, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Not done You will need to gain proper community consensus on this talk page first before any changes can be made, given the politically controversial nature of your request.

    Also keep in mind that your comparison with Turkey and Europe is a non sequitur argument that relies on a logical fallacy of false equivalence, you will need better reasoning in order for your desired change to be made. --benlisquareTCE 16:36, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Could you explain what is the the "politically controversial nature" of the request? It would be very helpful if you could also point out its relationship with whether Chinese can be the demonym for the people of Taiwan or not.
The reasoning is the definition of demonym itself: a demonym is a name given to natives or residents of a certain or specific place. In this article, the specific place is Taiwan. Lysimachi (talk) 19:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I think the issue is confused by Chinese being an ethnic group as well, and that nearly all Taiwanese are of Han Chinese ethnicity. But take a look at Taiwan#National Identity - the Taiwanese certainly use both terms themselves. Unless you can make the case that a demonym cannot be self-determined, I would oppose this change Cannolis (talk) 21:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}} is not used for this, please stop abusing this template. Please read on WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BRD, you need to gain talk page consensus for your changes, since you are attempting to change the status quo. You will need to demonstrate to the community that your edits are valid, and nobody is entitled to make radical changes to article content based on their own personal opinions on the matter. On this talk page, you've only demonstrated to me that you have an opinion—you have not demonstrated that your opinion is actual fact. Do you have reliable citations that back up your claims? Have you made an effort to explain in a rational, objective and logical manner why your changes are necessary? Simply stating your opinion is neither rational, nor objective. --benlisquareTCE 10:00, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I support the request.
A demonym is a name based on the place.
Let's suppose for a moment that hypothetically all people of Taiwan were brown-haired — you wouldn't claim that "brunette" was a valid demonym would you? Just because (some people might claim) "Chinese" is a valid description of the people, that does not mean it equates to a demonym!
And for the record, I disagree that "Chinese" is an ethnicity; it's like saying "Indian" is an ethnicity. Both are simplified expediencies that relate mostly to politics rather than anything else.
(The only possible way that "Chinese" can be the demonyn is for the user to have the view that Taiwan belongs to (is a substituent of) China. Some people may have that view, but it will surely not be WP:NPOV unless clearly marked as a controversial, non-standard usage. And even then it is quite unhelpful in an article about Taiwan, because then surely "Asian" and "Earth-dweller" would be just as valid as "Chinese"!)
—DIV (120.23.227.88 (talk) 13:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC))
Cannolis: Thanks for your reponse! As you noted, some people may consider Chinese as an ethnic group. The thing is the request is about the demonym for the people of Taiwan. Ethnic group and demonym are different things. The definition of the former in Wikipedia/Wiktionary is: "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience."/"A group of people who identify with one another, especially on the basis of national, cultural, or religious grounds." The definition of demonym is: "A demonym /ˈdɛmənɪm/ is a name given to natives or residents of a certain or specific place."/"A name for an inhabitant or native of a specific place that is derived from the name of the place." I don't known of any rule as to whether demonym can be self-determined or not, but according to the definitions, a demonym is given to people of a specific place and is derived from the name of the place. Chinese is not the demonym for the people of Taiwan because it is not given specifically to that place.
120.23.227.88: Thanks for your support! Regarding your notion "the only possible way that "Chinese" can be the demonyn is for the user to have the view that Taiwan belongs to (is a substituent of) China", according to the definition of demonym, Chinese would not be the demonym for Taiwan, even if a user thinks Taiwan is a part of China, because Chinese is not the name for an inhabitant of the specific place Taiwan (it's China instead) and because 'Chinese' is not derived from 'Taiwan'. Here's a list of demonyms for cities and the countries they belong to. In most if not all cases, even though the city surely is a part of the country (e.g., Italy), the demonym for a city (e.g., Amalfi) is not the demonym for the country (Italian), but one that specifically refers to the inhabitants of the city and one that is generally derived from the city name. Lysimachi (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
If you look at thedemonym article, it says that they are usually, but not always, derived from the name of a place. In fact, if you look at the demonym#irregular forms section, it shows a few examples of demonyms which are not derived from the name of the city/state (e.g. Hoosiers for Indiana). The demonym#cultural problems section, also actually discusses the this Chinese vs. Taiwanese issue briefly. Cannolis (talk) 00:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Cannolis: You are absolutely correct that demonym may not always be directly derived from the place name. However, as your example of hoosier suggests, a demonym is used specifically for people of a place: "Hoosier /ˈhuːʒər/ is the official demonym for a resident of the U.S. state of Indiana." It is not used for people of Indiana plus some other places. In the demonym#cultural problems section where Taiwan is mentioned, it is very interesting that it also mentions One-China Policy, according to which "all the countries recognizing the ROC recognize it as the sole legitimate representative of all of China and not just the island of Taiwan and other islands which it controls." So the Chinese mentioned in that section refers to people of a China that includes Taiwan. Note that the section does not mention demonym at all; instead, it says "the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China officially adhere to the One-China policy, use "Chinese" to describe their nationals". In this respect, that section does not seem to have much, if any, to do with the demonym of Taiwan, but is rather a discussion on the national identity of Taiwanese and how ROC might name its nationals. For the purpose of this discussion, it would be really helpful if you could provide any citation that says any person/government has said that the demonym for the people of Taiwan is/can be Chinese. Lysimachi (talk) 17:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I do not support the request. (I changed my mind on 26 May, see below.) The footnote after "and / or Chinese" already gives a clear justification for including "Chinese": Although the territories controlled by the ROC imply that the demonym is "Taiwanese", some consider that it is "Chinese" due to the claims of the ROC over all of China. Taiwanese people have various opinions regarding their own national identity. The confusion described in the Taiwan#national identity section of this article is another reason to include both demonyms. Phlar (talk) 16:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Phlar: Thanks for your reponse! Could you find any citation for the sentence in the footnote: "some consider that it [the demonym] is "Chinese" due to the claims of the ROC over all of China"? That would be very helpful!Lysimachi (talk) 17:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Lysimachi: No, I don't know of any citations that relate to the demonym per se. The table Percentage of Taiwanese residents who consider themselves Taiwanese, Chinese or Taiwanese and Chinese according to various surveys (in this article) does address some Taiwan citizen's self-identification as "Chinese", and it does include citations. Phlar (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Phlar: Me neither, I couldn't find any literature in support of Chinese being a demonym for Taiwan. Thanks for your information on that table, which is clearly one that addresses national identity ("National identity is a person's identity and sense of belonging to one state or to one nation"), rather than demonym ("A demonym /ˈdɛmənɪm/ is a name given to natives or residents of a certain or specific place"). No one in the surveys who identifies himself as a Chinese is saying that 'Chinese' is a name given specifically to the people of Taiwan. Lysimachi (talk) 18:45, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't see a distinction between the two - If they are calling themselves Chinese, Taiwanese, or both, then those names are being used by the people of Taiwan to describe the people of Taiwan. Cannolis (talk) 04:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
1. Could you provide any citation that says any person/government has said that Chinese is a demonym for the people of Taiwan? 2. It is erroneous to say "those names are being used by the people of Taiwan to describe the people of Taiwan." The names were chosen by a person surveyed to describe herself or himself, not the people of Taiwan. Please take a look at the surveys (e.g., citation 153). The survey question was: Do you think you are Taiwanese, Chinese, or both?. The question was not: What do you think best describes the people of Taiwan? (And of course, the question was not: Do you think the demonym for the people of Taiwan is ~?) 3. Despite the given definitions, if it is still difficult for you to see a difference between national identity and demonym other than their spellings, please take a look at this survey that asks a Scot (the demonym for the people of Scotland) what s/he thinks best describes her- or himself. There are Scots who think they are Scottish, British, and 'equally Scottish and British'. There are even surveys in which some Scots chose 'European'. But take a look at the Scotland page (where it certainly says at Scotland#Demographics that the Scots use both Scottish and British themselves), neither British nor European is listed as a demonym. 4. Verifiability (WP:V) is a core policy of Wikipedia. If you cannot provide evidence (other than saying you "don't see a distinction between the two") that the demonym is the same as national identity, please provide a citation for the sentence in note d or any citation that says any person/government has said that the demonym for the people of Taiwan is/can be Chinese. Lysimachi (talk) 20:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I've thought about it and I think I am persudaded by the argument that demonym and national identity are distinct. Even if you consider Taiwan a sub-national entity, "Chinese" isn't a name used to refer specifically to people on Taiwan. We don't list "American" as a demonym for California; likewise, even assuming Taiwanese people are also Chinese, we probably shouldn't list "Chinese" as a demonym in the infobox here. wctaiwan (talk) 21:41, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank God that someone else understands the box is for demonym not for national identity. Lysimachi (talk) 16:17, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support: OK, after further consideration, I finally see Lysimachi's point (yes, I'm a bit slow; thanks for your patience). The demonym is simply the name that refers specifically to residents of a place.
- To cite an example similar to wctaiwan's, people from Hawaii are called "Hawaiians." They can also be called "Americans," since Hawaii is part of the USA, but we do not claim that "American is a demonym for residents of Hawaii." And furthermore, the demonym for people of Honolulu is listed as "Honolulans," and we don't list "Hawaiians" or "Americans" as alternative demonyms, even though "Honolulans" is a sub-group of "Hawaiians," which is a sub-group of "Americans."
- Therefore, people from Taiwan are "Taiwanese"; it is incorrect to list "Chinese" as a demonym because "Chinese" refers to a much larger group than just "people of Taiwan."
- Phlar (talk) 17:40, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your support! Lysimachi (talk) 18:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Capital[edit]

Is there any truth to the statement that Nanking is or was considered the capital of ROC/Taiwan? It is mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_the_Netherlands#Other_capitals_that_are_not_the_seat_of_government but this article doesn't seem to have any mention. Maybe it's historical, or a minority view? I notice the article quotes a "clarification" from the government about the capital, which seems to suggest that if a "clarification" was needed, there must have been some confusion/uncertainty. —DIV (120.23.227.88 (talk) 13:13, 11 May 2015 (UTC))

It's historical (and perhaps a view still held by a small minority). See [1] for an example of the current (pro-China) government saying the capital is Taipei. wctaiwan (talk) 20:19, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
ROC's history only dates back to 1911, it's only a government name for China like Yuan, Ming or Qing dynasties. Nanjing was indeead in the capital of the ROC, but not of Taiwan because the latter is an island. This is a fact that is not disputed. The capital was moved to Beijing again after the Communists won the civil war. The ROC retreated to Taiwan and established their government there, but one opinion is that mainland China still belongs to the ROC because the Communists are criminals. So PRC and ROC both claim Taiwan and the mainland. --2.245.242.24 (talk) 16:56, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Of course, that was the capital of PRC not ROC. I'm not sure that today's ROC constitution still "claims" the mainland provinces in any concrete way since constitutional amendments in 1991. The current capital of the ROC is Taipei. 24.14.89.219 (talk) 00:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

"sovereign state"[edit]

I don't take a position on this issue, but whether Taiwan/ROC is a sovereign state is unquestionably a matter of POV. By what standard has it been decided that Taiwan qualifies? If there is a global Wikipedia convention governing which polities are so classified, can we make that clear? The Wikipedia page on Sovereign States cites four competing theories; effectively adopting one or more (and rejecting others) is inherently POV. I'd be interested in the thoughts of others on this topic. Jmedlong (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

  • International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states. Taiwan satisfies all four. Szqecs (talk) 18:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
  • The norm you cite is contested. It is known as the Montevideo Convention standard, and only countries in the Americas (and not all of those) have adopted these rules. And although some claim the Montevideo Convention only codified customary international law, the fact is that plenty of countries (including the PRC) have continuously rejected these norms, which means those countries are not bound by them even if we assume that these are customary international law norms. At the very least, avoiding POV requires taking note of the ROC's contested status and making note of the standards by which the ROC is considered sovereign or not.Jmedlong (talk) 15:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Taiwan does not satisfy the four criteria for sovereignty. Some people would argue that the "Republic of China" on Taiwan meets all of the Montevideo Convention's criteria for statehood. However, after doing an objective overview of laws of war studies, and eliminating any POV bias, a number of problems immediately become apparent. In fact, all of the ROC's "qualifying criteria" are phony. PERMANENT POPULATION: The native Taiwanese population was mass-naturalized as ROC citizens in 1946, based on the false premise of "Taiwan Retrocession Day," and in direct violation of the Hague Convention's stipulations regarding the treatment of the populace of occupied territory. DEFINED TERRITORY: The ROC exercises effective territorial control over Formosa and the Pescadores, but there has been no official transfer of title. GOVERNMENT: The ROC appears to have a government, but it is a government in exile, and when conducting its FOREIGN RELATIONS it still asserts that it is the legitimate government of China, although from a legal and historical standpoint such an assertion is totally untrue. 206.225.134.176 (talk) 09:13, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
There is a bit of misunderstandings on your part. The article may serves as the country information on Taiwan, but the name of the article is chosen to be "Taiwan" and not "ROC" (Taiwan here refers to the common name for the sate that governs it, and not a geographical region). There was actually an extensive Wiki discussion regarding if the article should be re-directed as "ROC" and was voted down overwhelmingly due to WP:COMMONNAME. I agree with you that the ROC is an illegitimate regime; however, it is definitely acceptable to refer to Taiwan as the common name for the sovereign state that govern the island because it is how Taiwan has operated for decades and how most people refer it. The discussion are over at Talk:Taiwan/Archive_20 and Talk:Taiwan/Archive_23. Talk:Taiwan/Archive_20 actually resulted in one of the most discussed topic on Wikipedia, even with a Wikipedia admin chimed in on the issue. Axtxqk (talk) 01:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree that identifying Taiwan as a "sovereign state" in the first sentence is misleading, given the controversy over sovereignty, which is discussed in several places throughout the body of the article ("sovereign" or "sovereignty" appears about 20 times in the body). I would support deleting "sovereign" from the first sentence, and changing the link from Sovereign state to State (polity). The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the lead already discuss Taiwan's limited international recognition and the cross-straits issues, so I don't think it's necessary to add "partially recognized" or any other qualifier before state. And I don't think many readers would confuse "state" (meaning "polity") with "Federated state." Phlar (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
    • That article doesn't really adequately address the state as a political entity (it seems to mostly focus on the social aspects). I would rather just delink if people aren't OK with linking sovereign state. (I'd prefer going with country rather than state, but people have objected to that before.) And I'm really rather tired of drive-by commenters insisting that a distinction must be made between the modern ROC and Taiwan (despite the fact that basically no Anglophone news source does so), that the ROC's current claims to all of China are of any significance, or that the constitution somehow trumps reality or what the government does in practice. wctaiwan (talk) 04:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
      • The lead paragraph of the State (polity) article focuses on political meanings of the word "state." From the first sentence: A state is an organized political community living under a single system of government. I think a link to this article would make it pretty clear that we're identifying Taiwan as a political "state." Phlar (talk) 21:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Franc007She: I disagree with identifying Taiwan as a "sovereign state". The Republic of China is a sovereign state of course but Taiwan is just a province of the Republic of China. In the legal theory, Taiwan was back to China in the 1945 and had not declared its independence from the nation of China, either ROC or PRC as its representative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Franc007She (talkcontribs) 02:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello to all. My first post here. I have been involved in a similar discussion at Talk:Kosovo whereby sovereignty has been explored and challenged, etc. though I myself am not sure where I stand on these matters since it appears there is no universal agreement as to what constitutes sovereignty. I am aware of the policy that a sovereign state should be able to represent itself in dealing with other sovereign states, but if neither the first nor the second are recognised by anyone else that can be awkward (such as Nagorno-Karabakh and Somaliland signing a bilateral agreement). Obviously I see the need for ROC and PRC to be presented like for like in their ledes since they remain rival entities to claim the whole of China, with PRC having size and status advantage, and ROC having historical advantage. But my question is this: China is recognised by the entire world, only there is a split as to which entity is recognised. Shouldn't that mean that China per se is the sovereign state rather than PRC and ROC being two sovereign states? --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Please don't compare to Kosovo. This is an entirely different matter. I don't understand what you mean by "the ROC has historical advantage". The PRC is not recognized in all countries. --2.245.220.128 (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I would support Szqecs's view on this issue. If China is a sovereign state, there is no reason why Taiwan is not one. Lysimachi (talk) 13:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, first time readers wouldn't care much for the use of the term, so it might as well be changed to country.Szqecs (talk) 20:02, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Lysimachi and Szqecs, either island country or sovereign state is acceptable. In reading through the comments, it's clear that some people don't seem to understand the difference between recognition and sovereignity; they are distinct things. While recognition is a subjective diplomatic view expressed by a particular state (and not all states express the same view; it is primarily determined by if the states have chose to exchange setting up embassies with each other), sovereignity is a rather observable objective fact. Sovereignity can be observed and determined by how other foreign nations conduct matters with respect to the island nation, including arm sales and joint military exercises, neither of which a dependent territory can conduct. Based on this, if we momentarily disregard what China is verbally saying about Taiwan, China itself is already in practice treating the island as a sovereign state. With regard to the phrase "partially recognized", it has been discussed previously numerous times (see Talk Archive) and was rejected due to being subjective and unfit in the introduction. Axtxqk (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Name of time zone[edit]

I propose changing it back to just "National Standard Time". No source refers to it as "ROC National Standard Time", and it's abundantly clear what country "National" refers to in the context of this article. wctaiwan (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree. And I would also support removing "ROC" from "National Standard Time" on the pages for Chiayi City, Keelung, Hsinchu, Tainan, Taipei, Taichung, Kaohsiung and New Taipei City, all of which recently underwent similar edits. Phlar (talk) 20:33, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Agree. ROC seems a bit redundant in this context.Lysimachi (talk) 10:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Recent edit war over the introduction[edit]

There's been a deluge of edits and reversals over the lead paragraph the past few days. Szqecs, could you first explain what you are trying to accomplish with your changes here, on the talk page, so we can discuss and try to achieve consensus before you actually make them? From your comments under the "sovereign state" topic above, I had thought you only wanted to change that one term. But it seems you have much more sweeping changes in mind. Please help us to understand. Phlar (talk) 18:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Phlar For my first edit I changed "sovereign state" to "island country", added a sentence that says Taiwan is the name of the island but also used to refer to R.O.C., and changed the order of some sentences. The former was discussed already and the other two don't seem controversial. Philipxd reverted it whatsoever without stating the reason and all I did was revert it back. ILVTW stated that defining Taiwan as an island nation is controversial as the ROC has not renounced its constitutional territorial claims over Mainland China. I didn't make edits since. Taiwan is a de facto island country and it's what people perceive anyways. Being technical is pointless. Szqecs (talk) 03:31, 12 July 2015 (UTC)