Talk:Takeda Shingen

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Untitled[edit]

Is the link to the nhk source "sono.... " broken? Ottawakismet (talk) 17:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Has anyone noticed number 13 in Shingen's life? He is born on 1.12.1521. (1+1+2+1+5+2+1=13); died on 13. may; his name has 13 letters, his greatest battle (kawanakajima 4) was fought in 1561 (1+5+6+1=13)...Sephiroth shingen (talk) 21:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


Sephiroth shingen (talk) 21:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

What is this about Shinano and Koufu? I thought he was ruler of Kai -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

You are right. Koufu is a capital of Yamanashi prefecture, which was once Kai in Sengoku period. What was I doing. -- Taku 02:47, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)
BTW, the literal meaning of Koufu (甲府) is "The capital of Kai (甲斐)". And it is named by his father Takeda Nobutora in 1519.--219.113.68.124 03:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the pronounciation guides. I thought they reduced the readability of the article significantly. BTW You missed one. I'll go and remove that too.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cimon Avaro (talkcontribs) 07:17, 7 November 2003.


but he could not defeat old age. After Shingen died in 1573 (due to an illness that resulted from a musket ball wound)

Am I the only one to find this portion of the article slightly humorous? -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 08:03, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)

Not at all. I like it too. No one can tell me an encyclopedia has to be dry and boring. <grin> Isomorphic 08:13, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Content moved from Takada Shingen[edit]

I made Takada Shingen a redirect to this article, which spells the surname correctly. The article previously contained the following material:


TAKEDA SHINGEN
One of the many Daimyo leaders in Sengoku Jidai period Japan. He inherited the Kai and Shinano provinces in the east of Japan. He became well respected for his military technique and strategy. He used and developed the famous Takeda Cavalry who were seen throughout the country as the dominant cavalry force. His banner bore a quote from the Chinese strategist Sun Tzu saying "Swift as the wind; quiet as the forest, conquer like the fire; steady as the mountain"
His main rival was Uesugi Kenshin who ruled the neighbouring Etchu province. They would fight many battles, five of which occurred at the same battlefield of Kawanakajima. Shingen is recognized by manyas a highly skilled man. However due to his constant rivalry with the Uesugi and Hojo in the east, he was never able to march on the capitol until after it was taken by Oda Nobunaga. He would finally march toward the capitol in 1572, but his path was barred by Nobunagas ally Tokugawa Ieyasu. Even though Shingen would win the following battle of Mikata ga hara, due to a ploy of devised by Ieyasu wherein he retreated to his castle, leaving the doors open and lighting the way to make Shingen think it was a trap, Shingen failed to make further progress.
He would try again, this time stopping to capture Noda castle. Shingen would be killed during the fairly one sided seige. According to legend, the defenders expecting defeat and death decided to drink all their Sake (alcohol) reserves to stop them falling into the hands of the enemy. During the celebration, one of them began to play a flute. Shingen heard the flute and decided to sneak up to the walls and listen. A defending sniper, less drunk than his comrades, spotted Shingen and put a bullet in him.
Shingen's last orders were that his death be kept a secret to prevent discord. He was succeeded by his son Takeda Katsuyori who always aimed to better his father.

Fg2 July 4, 2005 10:23 (UTC)


External Links[edit]

I have taken the liberty (or rather am currently in the process of doing so) of adding on an "External Link" section, both to this page and that of Uesugi Kenshin. I currently only have one outside source, but it is called the "Samurai Archives", a quite impressive store of information dealing with anything relating to (obviously) samurai or just that time period in general. It is part of the History Channel Network, and seems to have very reliable and thorough information. Should anyone know of another section in Wikipedia that might benefit from this link, please contact me and I will see if I can add it on there as well at earliest convenience. Many thanks. Pellinore 04:59, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Editing of Takeda Shingen page[edit]

This is really more of an addition to my last note (on external links), but I have found sufficient information (primarily through the source I put on external links) to hopefully help fill out this description a little. Also, I was slightly confused by the wording at some points, and will try to rectify that without causing too much disruption. Should anyone question these edits (listed under User 70.246.211.15 seeing as logging-on continues to confound me), feel free to contact myself or put a note on the discussion page here. Pellinore 19:07, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

The Pederastic Lovers category.[edit]

I am going to remove the pederasty category soon, unless somebody provides a convincing reason to keep it. -- Cimon avaro; on a pogostick. 12:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Please read the article, here. Why do you want to suppress this information?! Haiduc 12:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
It's hardly suppression when the Japanese culture, like many others historically, have been casually pederastic. You might as well add that he was a heterosexual lover as well.Mephistopheles 15:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll second that. Going out of your way to include it implies a modern moral sense, which shouldn't apply. Just as we do not bother describing him as heterosexual, or as not wearing trousers, there's no need to bother discussing this subject here - particularly since Shingen is not famous for being more sexual promiscuous than anyone else, or anything of the sort. LordAmeth 20:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The "modern moral sense," or the promiscuity topos, has nothing to do with the category or the individuals so categorized. I have no idea where you came up with that. We have historical information on Shingen's relationships, they have been documented in historical studies, they occupy an entire paragraph in the article, and thus he is of interest to anyone who is studying pederasty in history and needs to be included in the category. That a man is heterosexual is taken for granted unless otherwise indicated. Please do not let your personal negativity towards pederasty influence this article. Haiduc 23:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's out of left field at all. This is little different from making a category of child molesters throughout history, or wife beaters or something - there's no reason to single Shingen out as a particular special example, just like I don't believe that every single ukiyo-e artist needs to go in the shunga category - it's more or less assumed that people at this time, in Japan, would be engaged in such relationships. No need to single him out among the hundreds of other daimyo by putting him in the category. (Ultimately, I really don't care what you do; you're welcome to keep the categories as they are. I just want to make sure you understand my meaning.) LordAmeth 00:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I hope I am not missing something here. The negativity that you are implying simply does not exist. Here is a case of a young man making a love pact with a still younger man, a youth, actually. There is no imputation of evil, molestation, abuse or whatever. It is simply a relationship, which in those days was seen as honorable. The fact that you and I are privileged enough to be aware of the ubiquity of pederasty among upper class Japanese of those days does not absolve us from making that information accessible to others less endowed. Haiduc 01:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Takedas sexual relationships are of historical interest, and shouldnt be censored. You are asking why things should be left in, whereas I believe the onus is to justify why something should be removed. Ottawakismet (talk) 17:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The name in his childhood[edit]

 Takeda Shingen was born Takeda Katsuchiyo.

It is widely believed as such, but is not correct. His actual childhood name was Taro (太郎), and, according to ja:武田信玄, Katsuchiyo (勝千代) was that of a nephew of him, Anayama Nobukimi (ja:穴山信君).

Katsuchiyo was a relatively common childhood name for Takeda family at that time, so there's still possibility of that he was really called Katsuchiyo. However, most of recent researchers think those descriptions about Katsuchiyo came from Koyogunkan (ja:甲陽軍鑑) (a textbook on strategy/tactics written in 17C), which was based on some incorrect sources. --219.113.68.124 03:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Re. Nobumori as heir[edit]

While your point seems technically correct, it's a bit misleading because Katsuyori succeeded Takeda Shingen. As to the manner of Shingen's death, as you must be aware, Kurosawa suggested in "Kagemusha" that he was shot, as by a sniper. As of 2006, the novel 'The Samurai Banner of Furin Kazan,' by Inoue, Yasushi, is available in translation (Tuttle Publ.). The NHK Taiga drama of 2007 is an adaptation from this novel. 18 Feb. 2007 Shinda

Yae, a mistress of Takeda Shingen[edit]

I cannot find her in wikipedia (english). She is a commander of a female cavalry squad. I beleive that is it import to mention her somewhere. I am unfamilar with her information, as to why I was looking for her. Thanks,CarpD 3/5/07

She was probably created by Kurosawa for "Kagemusha", or from some other fiction. I'd have to do some searching to prove otherwise, but that's my first reaction. --Kuuzo 05:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Incorrect, Kuuzo. Yae was also featured in the 1990 film "Heaven and Earth", so clearly she cannot be (solely) an invention of Kurosawa. However, I cannot find any more information on Yae. So I hope somebody will add some information about her to the wiki -- Blujay 14:26, 18 April 2015 (Central, US)

Unknown Reference[edit]

In the paragraph concerning Shingen's washudo relationship and pledge it gives the following citation: (Leupp, pp.53-54) but there is no Leupp listed in the Reference section. Could the person who added the citation please include the reference as well. Thanks. Axamoto 14:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Musket wound theory?[edit]

In the section, "Takeda Shingen in fiction and drama," appears the following sentence: "Akira Kurosawa's 1980 film Kagemusha was also inspired by his life; it brought the musket-wound theory to public attention outside Japan."

The article makes no other mention of this musket-wound theory. It should either be elaborated upon (in a different section,) or removed. I'm not familiar with this theory beyond what was shown in the film.

Phlake (talk) 03:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Not sure it's a theory so much as a premise. Does anyone have an academic or scholarly reference for it? Fg2 (talk) 04:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Sansom doesn't seem to discuss Shingen's death directly, and unfortunately that's the only set of books I brought to Japan with me. But I am pretty sure that Turnbull talks about him dying from complications/infection of a musket wound received at the 1573 siege of Noda. Whether or not you want to take Turnbull as a fully reliable source is another question, I suppose, however. LordAmeth (talk) 06:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't have the books I cited in the article close at hand, but I don't recall them mentioning a wound, just illness. They're both dictionaries of history, with very brief entries. The Japanese Wikipedia article elaborates on it, saying he had been coughing up blood. In a separate section of the article, they mention the musket theory (説) and speculate that it might have been devised by the Tokugawa to take credit for killing Shingen. And there are more theories as well... . Fg2 (talk) 07:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Sure. Well, that sounds quite feasible too. After all, the whole story about him being distracted by the sound of a flute player in the enemy fortress and therefore being shot, while certainly not an impossibility, sounds a bit too much like a romanticized story... LordAmeth (talk) 13:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)