Talk:Tamils/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Contents

Work needed

Hello everyone! This article currently appears near the top of the cleanup listing for featured articles, with seven cleanup tags. Cleanup work needs to be completed on this article, or a featured article review may be in order. Please contact me on my talk page if you have any questions. Thank you! Dana boomer (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I will work on some of the issues. Thanks Kanatonian (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
I have done the best I can and removed all unsourced sections, dead links I have tried to find or replace. I have also removed weasel words etc. Do let me know of any more issues after you guys run the report again. Kanatonian (talk) 20:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Adding K. Kamaraj images for prominent tamils

Kamaraj is widely acknowledged as the "Kingmaker" in Indian politics during the 1960s.He was instrumental in bringing to power two Prime Ministers, Lal Bahadur Shastri in 1964 and Indira Gandhi in 1966. He was awarded India's highest civilian honour, the Bharat Ratna in 1976. i think that he was eligible.getnow 10:19, 28 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Perumalnadar (talkcontribs)

Adding 3 new images of 3 prominent tamils

I am adding three new pics of famous tamils and who are much more recognizable. Mdmday (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

First, a 4X4 panel is too large and ugly. Second, Kamal Hassan and P. Chidambaram are not exactly the most famous and most recognisable in their fields. third, per WP:BRD if someone challenges your additions, discuss in talk page before readding them. add only if consensus is reached. Here i am not agreeing with two of the three pics, you are adding. Unless we reach consensus here dont add them back. Adding before consensus is reached is edit warring--Sodabottle (talk) 09:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Being "ugly" is subjective, unlike you i don't find it ugly. Kamal Hasasn is probably the most popular contemporary Tamil film actors as Rajni is actually a Marathi. Chidambaram is the HM, he is the most senior Tamil politician in the country and the most recognized tamil face among the non Tamil population. Mdmday (talk) 09:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

concede the first point. i like odd numbers, so i am partial to 3X3. i will drop that. But i still dont agree with Kamal and PC. For instance i dont know how PC has become the "the most recognized tamil face among the non Tamil population", he keeps fairly a low profile. Jayalalitha and Karunanidhi are much more recognised than him. And we already have one person from Tamil entertainment field - ARR who is much more recognisable and prominent than Kamal Hassan. If we want a more prominent Tamil from entertainment field M.I.A is a much more recognised face worldwide than Kamal Hassan. If i have to pick one more from entertainemnt and politics, i would pick MIA and karunanidhi/Jayalalitha. --Sodabottle (talk) 09:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

PC is the HM of India, HM is among the most visible and influential leaders in our country, Jaya and Karuna are known but only to Tamil people, not pan India or Pan world. Kamal is a veteran actor with a career span of over 50 years, he is much more senior than Rehman and is as well known as Rehman(if not more) specially if we talk about "face value". MIA is really not well known, she is only known to most people for her music in Slumdog Millionaire. Mdmday (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

What you say is true if we consider only India, but we have to consider recognition worldwide. MIA is far more well known in the world than Kamal (who is known in southern indian states and a few northern urban centers and virtually unknown outside india). HM post is influential in India but PC's isnt that visible India (his style).
I think we have reached an impasse and talking past each other. I will post in the India noticeboard to get more opinion. If no one responds/add inputs in say a week, i will self revert and add your images (as you are only adding more and not replacing, and inclusion is always better etc). Are you ok with this?--Sodabottle (talk) 10:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Are us serious, Kamal is famous all over India, he is well known in almost every part of India and also among the NRI population. MIA is not even known in India, many people haven't even heard of her except S millionaire and PC is visible in India...he is the most visible man in government after Gandhi family and Manmohan Singh....he held the position of FM earlier for almost 5 years so his fame is not new either.

I will like to get those pics back on the page as u said "inclusion is always better...". Mdmday (talk) 10:22, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Like i said this is not about "india alone". its about recognition world wide. Anyway i have posted in the india noticeboard. If no one adds anything more to this discussion, i will self revert in a couple of days and readd your images. --Sodabottle (talk) 10:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Referring the discussion from Notice board.

there are 'n' number of famous tamil people across globe. A person 'popular' for a user might be 'un popular' for another. The argument will be never ending. My suggestion would be we can have seperate sub divisions for each industry and keep their images there. Dumping all cine actors and politicians won't look good for a standard page. If you start with kamal, some one will come up with Rajni. If u say he is not from tamilnadu, again a abig fight will start from there. someother will cpme up with Vijay, Ajith, Silambarasan, Danush etc., etc., and the list will be never ending. Similarily for politicians. Though there are 'n' number of world known personalities, dividing them into groups inside the article will be a solution to accommodte all of them. Still its better leave as such in my opinion. Wasifwasif (talk) 11:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Wasif has got a very valid point on issues that would arise when we deal with top-film stars. I reckon Rahman is good enough for his international standing. In my opinion Sellapan Ramanathan would be the Tamil Politician with highest international standing. Opinion would of course vary on this. As for scientists, I would prefer either MS Swaminathan, CV Raman or Venkarataraman Ramakrishnan rather than Abdul Kalam. No offense meant to Kalam, but anyone who is into science would agree that the three scientists that I have mentioned in the earlier sentence have better contribution to science per se. --Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 15:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
it is all subjective and arguments can be made for both and against a lot of candidates. i would recommend a poll in the India noticeboard page and hope non-Tamil editors' opinion will be helpful. we can make list of candidates for Science, Sports, politics, entertainment categories and conduct the poll either here or at the noticeboard. --CarTick (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Let's come up with some ground rules so that we can create something like this that is tamper proof German people. Kanatonian (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Kamal is not known anywhere by non-Tamil population outside India,Muralitharan is not known in non-cricket playing ountries.I don't think cricket is a game played by more than 20 countries.M.I.A represent the Tamils of Eelam/Lanka/Ceylon.She voices for them and she is widely known in the western world[[[User:Arun1paladin|Arun1paladin]] (talk) 08:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)arun1paladin]

Ground rules for pictures

  1. Max number 10 25 using German people collage as an example
  2. No living people Living people acceptable except for politicians ?
  3. Should be notable
  4. Diapora has 25% 20% of the slots
  5. One each for a field
  6. Women have 50% of the slots
  7. 25 Categories including sub categories to match 1

Thanks for the initiative. we have to begin somewhere. I am not sure if these ground rules are acceptable to everyone to begin with. I am particularly concerned by 2nd and 4th rule. 10 seems less. "German people template" looks good. I feel identifying categories and people first to be the best first step. --CarTick (talk) 18:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I am just adding the names randomly. i havent even checked to make sure if we have images for all of them. please feel free to create categories and add names and we will see what we can do once we have a big list of candidates. i assume we have consensus to add Valluvar and Rajaraja Cholan by default. --CarTick (talk) 18:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

No living people idea would be good for politicians but not be the best for others especially sports. --Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 12:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Hiding this as it's getting a bit difficult to use, use the table instead

1. Indian Politicians

[Def. Presidents, Prime Miniters and Cheif Ministers]

  1. M. Karunanidhi
  2. J. Jayalalitha
  3. C. N. Annadurai
  4. Periyar E. V. Ramasamy I'm afraid not a Tamil by origin
  5. R. Venkataraman
  6. K. Kamaraj
  7. Rajaji

2. Non Indian Politicians

[Def. Presidents, Prime Ministers, Ministers]

  1. Sellapan Ramanathan Approved
  2. Samy Vellu (no image)
  3. S. Rajaratnam (no image)
  4. Lakshman Kadirgamar (no image)

3.Cinema

[Def: Winner of prestigious awards]

  1. Kamal Haasan
  2. A. R. Rahman
  3. Sivaji Ganesan

4.Sports

[Def:Winner of prestigious awards]

  1. Muttiah Muralidharan
  2. Viswanathan Anand
  3. Vijay Amritraj (no image)

5.Science

[Def:Winner of prestigious (Nobel...) awards]

  1. C. V. Raman
  2. Abdul Kalam
  3. Venkatraman Ramakrishnan
  4. Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
  5. Srinivasa Ramanujan

6.Philosophers

[Def:Internationally recognized]

  1. Ananda Coomaraswamy

7.Writers

  1. Avvaiyar
  2. R. K. Narayan
  3. Tiruvalluvar Approved

8.Indian Business people

[[Def:Forbes billionaire list]

  1. Shiv Nadar Approved
  2. Indra Nooyi
  3. Kalanidhi Maran

9. Non Indian Business people

[Def:Forbes billionaire list]

  1. Raj Rajaratnam (no image)
  2. Ananda Krishnan (no image)

10. Musicians

  1. M. S. Subbulakshmi

10.1 Pop musicians

[Def:Winner of prestigious awards]

  1. M.I.A
  2. Usha Uthup (no image)

11.Journalists

[Def:Winner of Prestigious awards (PEN...) awards]

  1. Taraki Sivaram (fair use)
  2. Krishnan Guru-Murthy (no image)
  3. George Alagiah

12.Indian Rebels

  1. Lakshmi Sahgal (no image)
  2. Veerapandiya Kattabomman Person of Telugu origin

13.Non Indian Rebels

  1. Pandara Vannian

14.International/UN officers

  1. Navanethem Pillay
  2. Radhika Coomaraswamy (no image)
  3. Kumi Naidoo - Director of Greenpeace Is he Tamil? Naidoo seems to be Telugu
Naidoo, Reddy, Govendar, Pillay and Chetty are common last names of South African Tamils.

15.Religious figures

[Def:Contributed to a major change or founded a major religious school, very influential in the religion of contemporary Tamils]

  1. Adi Shankara (statue or painting)not Tamil, a Kerala Nambudiri
Disagree with the strike out, during his time Kerala dids not have an independant ethnic identity, only after the 13th century. Kanatonian (talk) 15:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
  1. Arumuka Navalar (statue or painting)
  2. Ramanuja (statue or painting)
  3. Bodhidharma

16.Indian Monarchs

  1. Rajaraja Chola (statue or painting) Approved

17.Non Indian Monarchs

  1. Cankili I (statue or painting) Approved

18.Indian Tamil language revivalists

  1. Maraimalai Adigal
  2. U. V. Swaminatha Iyer

19.Non Indian Tamil language revivalists

  1. Kumaraswamy Pulavar
  2. C. W. Thamotharampillai

20.Reunion/Mauritious/Seychells Tamils

[Def:Most notable Tamil from Reunion/Mauritious/Seychells]

21.Malaysian/Singaporean Tamils

[Def:Most notable Singaporean and or Malaysian Tamil]

  1. Peter Velappan Secretary general of Asian Footbal Association [1]

22.European Tamils

[Def:Most notable Tamil from Europe]

  1. M.I.A Approved

23.South African Tamils

[Def:Most notable Tamil from South Africa]

  1. Navanethem Pillay Approved

24.West Indian/US/Australian Tamils

  1. Indra Nooyi Approved

25.Canadian Tamils

[Def:Most notable Tamil from Canada]

  1. Indira Samarasekera Approved

Discussion

A good initiative. Ground rule number 2 won't help much. Its not necessary that a person should die for him to be recognized as world renown. that doesn't make sense to me. Similariy traditional muscians is still a sub heading under entertainment. so removing it.Wasifwasif (talk) 12:26, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
How about defining each category, for example for Business people, the richest Tamil guys by Forbes list of Billionaires ? Kanatonian (talk)
good idea. once we have all the names and images identified, we will decide the number and choose the ones for which we have unanimous support and all others could be chosen by a poll atleast for a month. --CarTick (talk) 00:27, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I've added a few more to the above list. As far as the no of images I think 9 seems ideal, but on no account should it cross 12 (3 x 4). cheers. —SpacemanSpiff 04:03, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I am not sure under what category does Krishnammal Jagannathan fall under. We might have a picture of her soon, although am not 100% confident about that. --Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 19:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC) Sorry no free image available which is unfortunate as she was awarded Right Livelihood Award aka Alternate Nobel Prize. --Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 21:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Please undo any change if you guys feels that I over stepped . Kanatonian (talk) 22:10, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
No. Name Category Nationality Politics Music Cinema Sports Science Business Literature / Journalism Religion / Philosophy Monarchy Activism (Social / political) Governance (non-political) Free image?
1 M. Karunanidhi Indian Politician India Y N Y N N N N N N N N Green tickY
2 J. Jayalalithaa Indian Politician India Y N Y N N N N N N N N Green tickY
3 C. N. Annadurai Indian Politician India Y N Y N N N Y N N N N Green tickY
4 Rajaji Indian Politician India Y N N N N N Y N N N N Green tickY
5 R. Venkataraman Indian Politician India Y N N N N N N N N N N Green tickY
6 K. Kamaraj Indian Politician India Y N N N N N N N N N N Green tickY
7 Sellapan Ramanathan Non-Indian Politician Singapore Y N N N N N N N N N N Green tickY
8 Samy Vellu Non-Indian Politician Malaysia Y N N N N N N N N N N Red XN
9 S. Rajaratnam Non-Indian Politician Singapore Y N N N N N N N N N N Red XN
10 Lakshman Kadirgamar Non-Indian Politician Sri Lanka Y N N N N N N N N N N Red XN
11 A. R. Rahman Entertainment India N Y Y N N N N N N N N Green tickY
12 Sivaji Ganesan Entertainment India N N Y N N N N N N N N Red XN
13 Kamal Haasan Entertainment India N N Y N N N N N N N N Green tickY
14 Ilaiyaraaja Entertainment India N Y Y N N N N N N N N Green tickY
15 M. S. Subbulakshmi Music India N Y Y N N N N N N N N Green tickY
16 M.I.A. (artist) European Tamil UK N Y N N N N N N N Y N Green tickY
17 Usha Uthup Music India N Y N N N N N N N N N Red XN
18 Viswanathan Anand Sports ? India N N N Y N N N N N N N Green tickY
19 Muttiah Muralitharan Sports Sri Lanka N N N Y N N N N N N N Green tickY
20 Vijay Amritraj Sports India N N N Y N N N N N N N Green tickY
21 C. V. Raman Scientist India N N N N Y N N N N N N Green tickY
22 Srinivasa Ramanujan Scientist India N N N N Y N N N N N N Green tickY
23 Abdul Kalam Scientist India N N N N Y N N N N N Y Green tickY
24 Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Scientist US N N N N Y N N N N N N Red XN
25 Venkatraman Ramakrishnan Scientist US N N N N Y N N N N N N Green tickY
26 Indra Nooyi American Tamil US N N N N N Y N N N N N Green tickY
27 Shiv Nadar Indian Commerce India N N N N N Y N N N N N Green tickY
28 Kalanidhi Maran Indian Commerce India N N N N N Y N N N N N Red XN
29 Raj Rajaratnam Non Indian commerce US N N N N N Y N N N N N Red XN
30 Ananda Krishnan Non Indian Commerce Malaysia N N N N N Y N N N N N Red XN
31 Avvaiyar Literature Indian N N N N N N Y N N N N Green tickY
32 Tiruvalluvar Literature Indian N N N N N N Y Y N N N Green tickY
33 R. K. Narayan Literature Indian N N N N N N Y N N N Y Red XN
34 Ananda Coomaraswamy Philosopher Sri Lanka/US N N N N N N N Y N N N Green tickY
35 Taraki Sivaram Journalist Sri Lanka N N N N N N Y N N N N Red XN
36 Krishnan Guru-Murthy Journalist UK N N N N N N Y N N N N Red XN
37 George Alagiah Journalist UK N N N N N N Y N N N N Green tickY
38 Rajaraja Chola Indian Royalty India N N N N N N N N Y N N Green tickY
39 Cankili I Non-Indian Royalty Sri Lanka N N N N N N N N Y N N Green tickY
40 Navanethem Pillay South African Tamil South Africa N N N N N N N N N N Y Green tickY
41 Kumi Naidoo International activist South Africa N N N N N N N N N N Y Green tickY
42 Arumuka Navalar Non Indian Tamil revivalist Sri Lanka N N N N N N N Y N N N Green tickY
43 Bodhidharma Religious leader India N N N N N N N Y N N N Green tickY
44 Rajagopala Chidambaram Indian nuclear scientist and renowed metallurgist India N N N N Y N N N N N Y Red XN
  • I'm replacing the above list with the table, I'll complete the table with the rest of the items from the list in a few minutes. The list was just getting too difficult to parse through with all the modifications and multiple title sections etc. —SpacemanSpiff 18:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
great idea. looking at the table, it becomes clear to me that we are unfortunately limited by unavailability of free images. we may end up having ourselves to contend with narrow set of fields and choices which may not be much different from where we began. I believe we need to ramp up effort to getting free images of these personalities, while dont know how. --CarTick (talk)
We can get a lot of immages by writing to the correct orgsKanatonian (talk) 22:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I am working on a few pics Kanatonian (talk) 15:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Hi. I am giving my simple suggestion here. Firstly people who we are going to place should have the norms meet, including Popular figure, made significant contribution on their field, universal following & appeal. Lastly I would suggest to give more preference on people who have made contribution on civilian grounds sacrificing their own personal life in achieving so. I also suggest including 20 people in the list is a must and as example, check this out Italian people.
My choices and leaving it for open talk here,
Thiruvalluvar, A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, Srinivasa Ramanujan, C. N. Annadurai -- 1st Row
Rajaraja Chola, C. V. Raman, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, K. Kamaraj -- 2nd Row
M. S. Subbulakshmi, Muttiah Muralitharan, M. S. Swaminathan, Viswanathan Anand-- 3rd Row
Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, C. Rajagopalachari, Indra Nooyi, A. R. Rahman -- 4th Row
Bharathidasan, Ilaiyaraaja, Vijay Amritraj, Sivaji Ganesan -- 5th Row
I know some names may change here,since it requires larger consensus. But only thing I strongly say, keep atleast 20 people in the list, since we have enough people waiting in the list to cover. looking for some interesting valuable suggestions.
Ungal Vettu Pillai (talk) 11:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
You version ofthe list seems to be mostly restricted to people of Indian origin and of recent origin. What si wrong with Bodhidharma, M.I.A. for example Kanatonian (talk) 23:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi. I know that the list i suggested will not be the final. so i am open for possible changes here and there. Yes certainly I support adding Bodhidharma. But not so sure of M.I.A.. I know and heard of her. But including here representing Tamils, not so sure. But if all ok. I am also ok. Finally and very importantly, I will be happy if the list includes as per Italian people standards like rows in order and including minimum of 20 people as we have many waiting in the list like these: R. Venkataraman, Subramanya Bharathy,
C. Subramaniam, Dhanraj Pillay, Ravi Shankar (spiritual leader), S. R. Srinivasa Varadhan etc., --- Ungal Vettu Pillai (talk) 17:04, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


M.I.A's photo is essential .She is a popular Tamil in the west.She is not from India unlike us.Muthaiyah Muralitharan doesn't represent the Tamils of Eelam (arun1paladin117.193.196.97 (talk) 12:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC))

A new, improved montage

I have made a new montage based on the achievements by people in the State. Just have a look at it, I feel its much better than the present one. So, I removed Muralitharan's image based on the fact that he has not achieved much and replaced Ramanujam's pic with CV Raman as he has won the Bharat Ratna. The people highlighted here are Thiruvalluvar, Rajaraja, Rajagopalachari, MS Subbulakshmi, CV Raman, Kamaraj, Abdul Kalam, Viswanathan Anand and ARR. Also, we are able to distinctly view each person in this one unlike the one used. Plz put forward your opinions. Cheers! Secret of success (Talk) 07:18, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Totally un acceptable. Not representative at all. Two Congress politicians and non from the Dravida parties. No representation from outside Tamil Nadu. --216.123.169.252 (talk) 16:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


Music too is divided into classical Carnatic form and many popular genres vs Tamil Isai

The traditional classical Tamil music is known as Tamil Isai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.169.252 (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Tamils are not indigenous/native to any part of Sri Lanka, but to the Tamil country.

The claims in this article that the Tamils are indigenous to north and east of Sri Lanka is not surported by the references given. Kanatonian has reverted my edits without giving any reasons.

1st sentence in question: The indigenous Veddhas are physically related to Dravidian language-speaking tribal people in South India and early populations of Southeast Asia, although they no longer speak their native languages. The reference given is britannica.com and even that does not say any of the above sentence is claiming. What genetical studies show is that Tamils have no genetic affinity to the Veddas. Can the person who wrote this sentence at least say, which dravidian speaking tribes, Veddas are genetically related to, and what are the studies which show these relations?

reply to 1st sentence:
"The Pre-Dravidian jungle tribes of Southern India include the Kadir, Paniyan, Irula, Kurumba and Vedda."Baron Solly Zuckerman Zuckerman, Sir Grafton Elliot Smith, Government Museum (Madras, India) - 2000
"Next after them came another primitive stock, to which the Sakai of Malaya also belong, including the Veddas of Ceylon, the Irula of the Nilgiris, the Panyer of the Wynaad, and many other jungle tribes.."Out of Eden: the peopling of the world - Stephen Oppenheimer - 2004 --MThekkumthala (talk) 16:23, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Exactly my point, these tribes are non-Dravidian and pre-dravidian, so tell me, what do these tribes have to do with Sri Lankan Tamils? These tribes are not Dravidian or Tamil. The ones in south India have either adopted dravidian languages or their languages have got dravidianized, and the Veddas' language has got Sinhalized.
Anyway you are trying to mix these tribes too. As your own sources say, these are pre-dravidian tribes. On page 157, Oppenheimer says that Veddas are a Proto-Australoid tribe, while the Kadar and Paniyan are of Negroid type. So even the tribes are numerous and unrelated and absolutely all of them are not at all dravidians and are PRE-DRAVIDIAN tribes. How can this be relevant to the Sri Lankan Tamils, who are supposed to be dravidians? The sentence under discussion which I deleted yesterday, is totally wrong and is not supported by any scholarly work and a fake reference is given. Even your own sources have proven that, the sentence is totally wrong and trying to present a distorted and fake view. --SriSuren (talk) 21:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

=> Note added 9th January 2012: MThekkumthala has taken off the "citation needed" tag, and has just left the same fake reference. Also he has not been able to give another source which backs up the claims in the sentence in question but has infact proved my point that the Veddas are not Dravidians as implied by the sentence, and the fact the some south Indian tribes have adopted Dravidian languages has no relevance to the Sri Lankan Tamils. Therefore this construction of the sentence with carefully put together pieces cannot be accepted. Kanatonian undid my edit, under 2 minutes (see revision history), and has not yet provided a source nor has he said why he undid my edit. This edit under question first appears here, done by a user who has been blocked for sockpuppetry. If a reliable source which clearly states all the things which are implied in the sentence, is not given within 7 days, I am going to reinstate my edit, i.e I'll delete that sentence. I really do not have to wait even one minute to delete it, as it is referenced with a fake reference, but you have 7 days. --SriSuren (talk) 02:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


=> => Note added 12th January 2012: MThekkumthala has reverted my edit (see his edit #470855300, which is actually a revert) and taken away the "citation needed tag" again (2nd time): when the discussion here has proven beyond any doubt that the statement and the claims made in it is not supported by the citation given, The citation given is this. It is just a few sentences on the Veddas. Moreover I see that he is arguing for the complete opposite here and here and here and possibly other places, i.e he is arguing that Dravidians are not related to the Austroloids and clearly distinguishing the Dravidians from both what he calls Austroloids and Negritos. His own arguments and references do not support this sentence in this article, which he is hell bound on keeping to promote a political view, while arguing for the complete opposite in the Dravidian people's article!!! The fact is that Veddas are not related to the Sri Lankan Tamils genetically or linguistically and the sentence under discussion here is purely a false construction, which is not even in the reference given.MThekkumthala's behaviour is disruptive and totally dishonest and he deliberately conceals facts and distorts facts to promote a political agenda. This is not acceptable. Therefore I am reinstating the "citation needed" tags and request him to come to an agreement here, before he reverts my edits. You have appr. 4 days remaining to find a reference which supports your claims, before that sentence is deleted. --SriSuren (talk) 15:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)



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2nd sentence in question: It is believed that cultural diffusion, rather than migration of people, spread the Sinhalese and Tamil languages from peninsular India into an existing Mesolithic population, centuries before the Christian era. This is a sentence which is a distortion of the discussion in the reference given. It goes without saying that the Sinhalese language cannot diffuse from anywhere, since it is not found anywhere else and was formed in the island from a primitive Prakrit, while the Tamil language was formed and developed in Tamilakam and still found there. And the movement of Tamils from the Tamil country is very well documented in Tamil literature itself, eg. Yalpana Vaipava Malai.

Also, the theory that Tamils are the original inhabitants of the island is not a scholarly theory, but a political claim. Mentioning these fringe theories in Wikipedia brings down the quality and reliability of Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia.

Therefore I am reinstating my edits and will be correcting other edits too. If this is to continue I want a dispute resolution, with Wikipedia administrators present. This section is also present in the Sri Lankan Tamil article and there is a lot of stuff in that article too, which are completely false and references do not support what is claimed. SriSuren (talk) 22:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


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This is what a search on one of the two references given to support the theory that the Tamils are the original people of SL returned:

A. "History of Ceylon Tamils" by V. Natarajan:

B. The other being this: Manogaran, C. Ethnic Conflict and Reconciliation in Sri Lanka In this book, out of the blue, the author claims that the Yakshas and Nagas mentioned in the Mahavamse MUST have been the ORIGINAL Tamil people. :) --SriSuren (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

How can these (i.e A and B, note that A does not even exist) be regarded as scholarly theories? --SriSuren (talk) 05:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The section on Sri Lankan Tamils in the article says: "There is little scholarly consensus over the presence of the Tamil people in Sri Lanka..." but in the opening paragraph itself, the editor(s) STATE the highly disputed and contraversial claim that Tamils are native (meaning indigenous) to Sri Lanka as a FACT!! If there is no scholarly consensus as the editors themselves have acknowledged, how can they state that the Tamils are native/indigenous to Sri Lanka? Moreover, for some thing to be native or indigenous to a specific place it has to originate/be formed in that place, the length of time is not the issue. Tamils and the Tamil language originated and formed in Tamilakam, therefore that is where all Tamils are native to. Also the article defines Tamils as one ethnic group, and then states that the Tamils are native to Tamil Nadu AND Northeast of Sri Lanka; which literally means that Tamils in Tamil Nadu are also indigenous to Sri Lanka. While in the article on "Sri Lankan Tamils" it is stated that Sri Lankan Tamils are a section of the Tamils who are indigenous to Sri Lanka. The questions which arise from these contradictory claims which each of them taken separately contradicts each other too, are many - one being: how can some Tamils be indigenous to Sri Lanka while other Tamils are not? The conclusion is that some editors are trying to pass off politically motivated fringe theories about Tamils being indigenous to Sri Lanka as accepted facts. --SriSuren (talk) 05:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

again there is no controversy in claiming Lankan Tamils were indigenous people.
https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=book+#hl=en&safe=off&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=sri+lanka+indigenous+tamil&pbx=1&oq=sri+&fp=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&cad=b--MThekkumthala (talk) 16:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
The books on the first page of your search results, do not equate the term indigenous with native, or original inhabitants and some of them are talking of Tamil Nadu Tamils, who ofcourse are indigenous to Tamil nadu. As explained earlier, indigenous also refers to populations/communities which were present in a given country, prior to the colonial powers came to our countries. What is claimed in this Wikipedia article on Tamil people, is that the Tamils were the original people and that they are native to Sri Lanka, in the same way they are native to Tamil nadu. This is a politically motivated claim, and not the real situation at all. The migration of Tamils to Sri Lanka happened after the Tamil nation was formed in Tamilakam and the colonization of the north and east of Sri Lanka by the Tamils, is very well documented in historical documents and inscriptions of the Tamils and the Sinhalese. Native/indigenous people evolve into distinct nations, in their own territories, they do not come ready-made as the Sri Lankan Tamils did. --SriSuren (talk) 21:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I am totally confused with the discussion here. I only reverted Srisurens removal of a cited sentence, nothing to do with Vedda's. Infact I have now rewrote the sentence to mirror exactly what the citation says. Kanatonian (talk) 04:35, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


Names for Sri Lanka in Sangam literature

The user MThekkumthala has reverted (see his revision # 470855052 done today 12th January 2012, which is actually another of his reverts) my referenced edit twice:
-His first revert: 7 January 2012‎‎, Reason given : unreliable sinhalese source!!
Then he opens this discussion in my user page, claiming all sorts rubbish, and says that I can do my edit if I give him 3(!) reliable sources. !!
--I reinstated my edit with reference to the Madras University lexicon, on the 9th of January, after the discussion since it was clear that it was not the reference the trouble was with, but the trouble was that he doesn't want to include this information.
-His second revert: Today (12th January 2012), he reverts my edit again. See his edit (revision # 470855052). Reason given: no consensus.!!
What does he want as reference? The whole of the Sangam literature in their originals? MThekkumthala please state what are your criteria for a reliable reference? --SriSuren (talk) 15:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

There is a need to clarify which sources have more weight. --MThekkumthala (talk) 08:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Really? You are trying to confuse and start a discussion about sources, either because you do not know what you are disputing, or because you are just plain and pure dishonest. This is not about secondary sources, but about the names which were used for Sri Lanka in the Sangam literature, sources being the bulk of Sangam literature, itself. You'll first have to erase the whole bulk of ancient Tamil literature spanning over two millenia, and then come back and talk about sources, if you want to dispute this. Problem is you are trying to change the ancient landscape and territories attested by Tamil literature itself, to fit the Tamil separatist agenda - very futile attempt. --SriSuren (talk) 01:55, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
The discussion about Singhalam versus Eelam is a red herring, both words are not needed to make the point as cited by the reliable sources. Kanatonian (talk) 04:51, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
The point is, in that sentence Eelam is used to give a specific impression, i.e that Sri Lanka was a Tamil country, because Eelam got associated with the Tamil seperatism, in the last decades. So, if Eelam is to be mentioned Cinkalam should also be mentioned to balance the weight. Cinkalam is the name used in the list of 18 countries and also in the list of 56 countries, so it is not just another name, and it was outside Tamil territory. As for your socalled cited information: no citation has been still given for the reverts you did, (some of) which I have listed above to get explainations from the opposing editors. The message one gets, when one reads this article, especially the parts and references on/to Sri Lankan Tamils is that, it is a failed attempt to construct history, as parts of it contradicts with other parts and also what is being claimed elsewhere or established facts - Eg. like what I have already proven about the sentence about the Veddas in the discussion with Mthekkumthala. When you compare this jumble of distorted and dubious statements, which you call 'cited information', to the Sinhalese people's history, one immediately gets the impression that they have a well defined history, with a natural flow, while Tamils just have a list of dubious pieces of incidents or isolated occurances of potsherds, which cannot be linked to an independant Tamil country in the island in anyway or a continuous independant Tamil kingdoms/settlements (until the invasion in the 13th century and the establishment of the Jaffna kingdom); at best, this "list" proves that Tamils coming from the mainland have had small settlements with purposes connected to the Sinhalese people and have been interacting with the Sinhalese. Therefore much of what you call 'cited information' is, either distorted statements of which some have fake citings and many of the sentences in this jumble of sentences do not make sense, either taken alone or as a whole. The point to be taken is that one cannot construct or change history, because it has already happened. I still want the citation to the sentence about the Veddas. --SriSuren (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Sri lanka has been known as Lanka right since the days of the Ramayana was written most Sangam Literature and all ancient Hindu,Buddhist,Jain text use that name .İlankai or Eelam in Tamil. It has been refered to as Lankadeepa and later on Ceylon has been used.Any other name will be WP:Undue.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Undue weight? Undue weight comes into the picture only when Cinkalam is mentioned? More like supression of information. Also, this is about the names used for Sri Lanka in Sangam literature, not about colonial names. Cinkalam must be mentioned if Eelam is mentioned, that is called balancing undue weight or giving due weight. See also my answer to Kanatonian, above. Sri Lanka was also known as Sinhala in the Mahabharata, which I suppose is one of the ancient Hindu texts you forgot mention, and it predates Ramayana. All the names you mention are derived from the word Sinhala, except Lanka/Ilankai. --SriSuren (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
This is a not WP:NOTAFORUM about Political issues what you said is not relevant here SriSuren you said in you reply to Kanatonian above The point is, in that sentence Eelam is used to give a specific impression, i.e that Sri Lanka was a Tamil country, because Eelam got associated with the Tamil seperatism, in the last decades. So, if Eelam is to be mentioned Cinkalam should also be mentioned to balance the weight. Please political issues are not a reason if Eelam/Ilankai was used so be it if Cinkalam or Lanka is used so be it .We will stick with WP:RS sources.Please note there are few others are also involved sadly 2 of them are blocked .We need to get them also involved.We do not want an edit war .We will make the changes only after getting WP:RS sources Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Suren, I agree with you, using the sentence known in Tamil litrature as Eelam, Dravidian speaking tribals, all these are POV sections intend to convey a narrow point of view. It was addeded by people who add them and then run away from these articles for us to deal with it later. My contention is using known as Cingalam is also a POV especially from a Sinhalese nationalist point of view. The article Eelam deals with all etymological connotations in a neutral manner where it indicated Thomas Borrow a famous Dravidian language expert questions the Sinhala->Eela derivation. So let's leave it at and leave both the words out of the sentence and just deal with the subject matter in a neureal point of view. Kanatonian (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

IP 174.116.247.61's edits

IP 174.116.247.61 has been adding Bodhidharma in the montage in hte infobox. He seems to be aware of the controvery -Bodhidharma/Birthplace sources over bodhidharma's lineage. When such controversies and disputes exist, please dont put them in the montage. Only clear cut and uncontroversial choices have to be included in the montage. I have already removed your additions a couple of times - please dont add them again. If someone disagrees with your additions discuss them and try to establish consensus.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Bodhidarama new section

He has to be added to the list of Tamil people. So I want all you Tamil guys to help find proof, eg video, website, articles that he was a Tamilian. We must not let the other people make us forget our history. If we all find proof, then Bodhidharma will be on the article of Tamil people. Our Tamil History must not be forgotten and changed by any outsiders.

Thank you

அவர் தமிழ் மக்கள் பட்டியலில் சேர்க்க வேண்டும் வருகிறார். எனவே நான் ஆதாரம், எ.கா. வீடியோ, வலைத்தளம், அவர் ஒரு Tamilian என்று கட்டுரைகள் கண்டுபிடிக்க உதவ அனைத்து தமிழ் தோழர்களே வேண்டும். நாம் மற்ற மக்கள் எங்கள் வரலாற்றில் மறக்க செய்ய விடமாட்டேன் வேண்டும். நாம் அனைத்து ஆதாரம் கிடைத்தால், பிறகு Bodhidharma தமிழ் மக்களின் கட்டுரையில் இருக்கும். நம் தமிழ் வரலாறு எந்த வெளி மறந்து மற்றும் மாற்ற வேண்டும்.

நன்றி — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.247.61 (talk) 22:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you change the history?

History cannot be changed just be editing these articles as per one's convenience.why was the statement which testifies presence of Vedic religion was being deleted? Nijgoykar (talk) 05:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

This is about Tamil people, Vedic religious viewes developed in the Gangetic plains and spread around the world. Kanatonian (talk) 02:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
This is about Tamil people's relation to Vedic religion. Since they do have mention in Tolkaipiyam, it is justified, in the first place that there is mention of Vedism (and it predates the oldest Sangam Literature) by merit of mention.
Secondly, Vedism predates the evidence, this was the object of discontent between Sodabottle and I. Evidence has been provided as proof and this evidence has also been deleted."History cannot be changed just be editing these articles as per one's convenience.why was the statement which testifies presence of Vedic religion was being deleted?"
Please do not counteredit before you supply evidence Kanatonian.I.e-leave the page until after consensus/mediation, like Sodabottle has said. I'm going to revert the changes as that was how it was when mediation was initiated.the object of discontent? whose? Personal opinions do not count here.Tamil Culture would have not been what it is now at all if acculturation has not happened.If Buddhism,Jainism and Vedic religion had not influenced it.Cultures do not flourish without give and take. Then what about the Velirs,Agastya rishi? is that not also an object of discontent ? Supported by the argument that Tolkāppiyam has mentioned Vedism (among others); the Sanggam Era does not predate Vedism. Sodabottle contends that that was the view of Michael Danino whom I quoted so other citations were provided. It is indeed agreed upon that the oldest extant work of Tamil literature was written by Jains. Demonblader (talk) 16:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)Demonblader
Looks like you are treating creating a encyclopaedia project as a WP:Battle about a POV you seem to care very much. What is the relevance of the discussion we are having here about the time line of Vedic religion and Tamil people ? What is clear is just like Cambodians, Vietnamese, Malays and many others Tamils were introduced the Vedic principles along with Buddhism and Jainism and any other religions from North India at some point in history. What is the relevance of mentioning that one showed up few years before others in the WP:Lead? I fail to see the justification of your edit other than to create controversy. If you want to write in details about timelines the correct place is Religion in ancient Tamil country not Lead of the Tamil people article. Also your arguments are not well written or coherent. I had a hard time following it. So try to break it down into understandable bits so we can discuss about it. Thanks Kanatonian (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I have also decoupled the realtionship between Sangam era and spread of Vedic religion, Buddhism and Jainism so that the sentences stand on their own without any controversy . What is your opinion ? Kanatonian (talk) 22:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
hiding the truth, calling it controversial. One might think that it is not I that have special interest here. What's with the hate? WP:NP The relevance of 1)Vedic Religion or any of the other main religions affecting Tamil religion like Buddhism and Jainism are simply that they did have a role to play in Tamil people and culture becoming who and what they are today. 2)The relevance of the timeline is such that there is a clear detailing of how these influences came about. 3) There is no controversy about fact 4)Read the guidelines, this is not to be about subject content! A few years and a few hundred years are different, and it is simply that one culture begin to fade where another began. These aren't arguments yet, Kanatonian, just me laying the background out for further study and consensus. 1) It is agreed among scholars that Jains did write the oldest extant Tamil literature and that Buddhists were an influence to this culture. 2) That customs of Vedic Religion are mentioned in this piece of literary evidence. 3) That this is relevant because it is a cultural and religious influence rather than simply religious; it is part of what defines Tamilians thus rendering necessary a timeline. :::Kanatonian, that's better but doesn't quite clarify the 'controversy'. It isn't a statement of fact. I'm reverting it.

Vedic & Puranic Culture—Literary Evidence An early text, the Tamil grammar Tolkappiyam, ..first or second century AD,[*] is “said to have been modelled on the Sanskrit grammar of the Aindra school.” ..shows that “the great literature of Sanskrit and the work of its grammarians and rhetoricians were well known and provided stimulus to creative writers in Tamil.." The Tolkappiyam adopts the entire Rasa theory as worked out in the Natya Sastra of Bharata.” It also refers to rituals and customs coming from the “Aryans,” a word which in Sangam literature simply means North Indians of Vedic culture ; for instance, the Tolkappiyam “states definitely that marriage as a sacrament attended with ritual was established in the Tamil country by the Aryas,”..uses the same eight forms of marriage found in the Dharmashastras..mentions the caste system or “fourfold jathis” in the form of “Brahmins, Kings, Vaishyas and Vellalas,” ..calls Vedic mantras “the exalted expression of great sages.” [1]http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/tamilculture.html

[2] Zvelebil, Kamil. 1973. The smile of Murugan on Tamil literature of South India. Leiden: Brill. - Zvelebil dates the Ur-Tolkappiyam to the 1st-2nd BCE, that eventually shaped the culture of the Tamilians.

[3]Aiyangar, Sakkottai Krishnaswami (1923). Some contributions of South India to Indian culture Calcutta University readership lectures. Asian Educational Services,. pp. 429 pages( see Chapter II,The pre–Buddhist character of Brahminism in the Tamil country,pages:48–58). ISBN 8120609999, 9788120609990 Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help). 

Many authors however, ascribe the work to Jaina traditions and the earliest of the possibly many authors, who has been identified as Tolkappiyanaar to a heterodox Jaina order. S. Vaiyapuri Pillai has suggested that Tolkappiyanaar may have belonged to a heterodox Jaina grammatical tradition called aintiram(a view which other scholars like Burnell, Takanobu and Zvelebil share)...[4]

Demonblader (talk) 07:30, 19 January 2012 (UTC)Demonblader

Kanatonian, all our views are incorporated in the last edit, why are you resuming the editting? I'll return it to how it was during mediation, okay?. Sorry for attempting to incorporate provided input. Reason for reverting: Pending mediation Demonblader (talk) 19:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)demonblade
The significance of this edition to WP:LEAD is that it clarifies what is wrongly stated there, that Sangam literature is pre-existent compared to Vedism with WP:LEADCITE WP:MOSBEGIN. Not drawing any comparisons between the two as one is religion and one is literary work, the edit seeks to provide that Sangam Literature was influenced by the community surrounding Tamilians of that time. You're right, Kanatonian, this is not a WP:BATTLE. But the viewpoint added is WP:NPOV. I see the interest in changing the article for you as you may be of the viewpoint that one actually predates the other but the problem there is WP:WIN WP:SOURCES. It's a common ideology, but not relevant encyclopedic content.

Remember WP:AOBF [multiple reverting]] In short: Edit is 1) relevant 2) verifiable 3) apolitical Another thing, Religion in Ancient Tamil Country and this article cannot have contradicting fact. I will consider editting that too. Thanks for the tip. Your edits on the Tamil People page.. Don't revert without discussion.

Not a single mention of atheism

Dravida movement, leftists form an influential of Tamil Nadu history and society. One of their core ideologies is atheism and yet it not even mentioned in this article as though if Tamil atheists do not exists. In fact atheist movement in Tamil Nadu is probably one of the strongest, except maybe for Kerala. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.132.5 (talk) 04:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

the atheist movement was influential for a brief period in the 20th century in Tamil Nadu. In an article that covers Tamils from all over the world and their history of over two millenia, it is unsurprisingly not covered.--Sodabottle (talk) 06:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Aringar Anna

Hi, The image of ANNA has got deleted from commons for some copy right violation. can some one upload ANNA's image with proper copy rights?. Wasif (talk) 10:37, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

File:AR Rahman 140x190.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Tamil, Hindu, Vedic, Agama

How come the Tamil-people are called Hindu, while Hinduism is called Vedic, but Shaiva Siddhanta is based on the Agamas, which are non-vedic? The more I edit on Advaita-related articles, the stronger my impression that Indian culture is very heterogenous, and that Tamil-culture is kind of subordinated to Vedic c.q. Neo-Advaita culture in the descriptions of India. Are those impressions correct? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

ZFrom my extent of knowledge, Tamil people's native religious life or labelled as Native Dravidian religion is comparable to Taoism of China.It comprises of several spiritual exercises rather than a institutionalised religion as no text refering to this practises were found in Tamil literature, however Thirumandhiram if not mistaken the 5th volume of Tamil Saiva Canon provides some hints to those spiritual practices.Besides that the Sangam literature in those classical period were more towards secularism and cosmopolitanisme rather than religious and this further complicates to find a clearer picture about Tamil people's native religion.Tamil people firstly came under foreign religious influence by Jainism around 600 BC,followed by Buddhism in 300BC and Hinduism somewhere in 200-100 BC.Brahminism gained royal support of kingdoms somewhere in 5th AD,although no Vedic practices known to be performed by the kings in those era, later yes.In 6th AD Bhakti Movement pioneered by Tamil Saiva Nayanars and Tamil Vainava Alwars gained the royal patronage and this movement and it ideologies is Agamic in nature.It helps to eliminate vedic practices(cause of Brahminisn) in Tamil temples and replaced it with Agamic and emphasises Tamil language as the religious language.On the other hand Shaiva Siddhanta and Sri Sampradaya is a religious body/streams which amalgamate the Vedic knowledge with the Bhakti movement which is a serious deviation from the original Bhakti practices which emphasise Salvation to achieve God rather than superstitious Vedic practices.This Shaive Siddhanta and Sri Sampradaya started in 13th-15th if not mistaken.I see(my personal opinion) that this movement's philosophies as extensions of North Indian philosophies which were blended with previous religious culture of Tamils such as Native Dravidian religion(includes non-instutionalised early Shaivism, Mother Goddess worhips,Murugam worships),Bhakti movement, Buddhism and Jainism.These both practices further deliver impressions as you mentioned.Far later other type of native Tamil worships also were assimilated through Sanskrit oriented rituals, however Tamil pantheon survives.Tamil religious life to be true, it really suffers from foreign ideologies interference which later assimilate it.It seems that Vedic ideologies has no importance among Tamils rather than results of assimilation.In terms of Tamil Culture, it refers to culture of whole Tamil population and it is not bordered by any religion.--Tan Meifen (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
H Tan Meifen. Your response confirms some of the impressions I have; thanks! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Template

Have a look at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 August 27#Template:Infobox Tamils. User talk:SpacemanSpiff found strange reason for the deletion!? Does the template disqualify FA? If so, how? --Tamil23 (talk) 18:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

First and foremost reason is that the image used in the template (and that currently in the article) crept in when no one was looking and it is of dubious copyright status as the source images and their licensing is not identified. The file is now under deletion process at Commons. Secondly, content has to be page driven given that the content passed through the FA process, so that changes can be tracked on this page. This is not a reference link or a list that can be sectioned off into a separate template, content in the infobox is linked to that on the page -- it can not and should not be separated. Finally, template redundancy is a big issue, e.g. even {{Infobox Indian jurisdiction}} has been replaced by the more common {{Infobox settlement}} as maintenance of these redundant templates is impossible. —SpacemanSpiff 18:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

POV

There's way too much POV nonsense that's been creeping into the article. This is not a website to promote Tamil nationalism, it's an encyclopaedia. Anyone wishing to promote Tamil nationalism is free to visit blogspot and other such avenues. —SpacemanSpiff 17:14, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I've had to revert again, and none of the POV pushers seem to be interested in saying why this belongs here, but admonish the rest to discuss on the talk page. —SpacemanSpiff 20:37, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
This content must have creeped into the lead these past years, it wasn't there at its last featured article review (This version), wonder if it would make it through another review. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Analyze

I have analyzed this text and have found good infomation about tamil people but no offensive content. This is a free encyclopedia and every opinion should be respected. Please discuss before deleting a large part of the article.

This text contains important infomation about Tamils ​​as

  • Language / ethnic groups
  • Place of origin
  • Emigration to other countries
  • colonialism and its consequences
  • The last part of the text bring to the point

That Tamils are citizens of different country and belonging to different caste and religion, all that what they unites is their love for Tamil language and culture. This feeling is called Tamil nationalism. The desire for a Tamil state is a side effect of this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:120b:c3d8:e480:d08c:8a22:1c71:a71c (talkcontribs) 22:32, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Here is the text that was deleted

Tamil people (Tamil: தமிழர், tamiḻar (singular) ?, or Tamil: தமிழர்கள், tamiḻarkaḷ (plural) ?), are a Dravidian ethnic group who speak Tamil as their mother tongue. The majority of the Tamil population ​​living in South India, where they have a regional autonomy in Tamil Nadu. The Sri Lankan Tamils are Tamil people who are native to the island of Sri Lanka and descendants of indigenous peoples such as the Nāka people of Nainativu.[7][8][9] They living mainly in north and eastern parts of Sri Lanka. The Hill Country Tamils, who have immigrated from India as plantation workers during the British colonial era, living in the hills region of central Sri Lanka. The ancient Tamil people from Malabar Coast were the early inhabitants of Maldives.[5] Earlier and during the 10th century Sri Lanka was occupied by the Tamil Empires of South India, this has led to significant growth of historic Tamil population in Sri Lanka. Historic and post 15th century emigrant communities are also found across the world, notably in Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritius, South Africa, Australia, Canada, Réunion (France) and the UK. With 77 million population, Tamils ​​are the largest stateless nation in the world. Originally, Tamil people inhabited and ruled the Tamil Homeland. During the colonial period, the Tamil areas in mainland India became a part of British India. In Sri Lanka, the Tamil areas was under the control of Portuguese, Dutch and later British.This situation completely eradicated the political notion of Tamils and reduced them to a minority status under political model implemented by British on their process of liberating their colonies They ​​were active in the freedom movement of India and other countries. After Independence, they ​​became citizens of India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and other former colonies. Independent of their religion, caste and country, most Tamils ​​follow the ideology of Tamil Nationalism characterized by the patriotism to the Tamil language, culture and desire for an independent Tamil state.[10][11][12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:120b:c3d8:e480:d08c:8a22:1c71:a71c (talkcontribs) 22:32, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Would you kindly reply to the post above Talk:Tamil people#POV? the actual issues on why it was removed is mentioned there. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 10:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
As I mentioned before this nonsense about Tamil nationalism doesn't belong here; you are however free to create a blog elsewhere and educate the world of your views. While a good chunk of this text is POV, some of it was removed because it's just not sourced and/or in the article and the lede should be a summary. It is a free encyclopaedia, but not every opinion gets real estate here. We go by what reliable sources have to offer and we don't provide far fringe POV any real estate in our articles. Period. —SpacemanSpiff 10:34, 14 October 2013 (UTC)


Spaceman,this is not a place for Paarpanar/Brahmin nationalism or Sinhala Extremism aka Sri Lankan nationalism too.I think that the Tamil Eelam issue deserves few lines in this issue.I think you can have issues with the language and neutrality of the topic but You cannot say that the issue doesn't belong here.After all we cannot write about Tamil Eelam in Arabs page.I think that few lines about the issue must come under the Tamils of Sri Lanka section

(202.71.142.219 (talk) 12:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC))

Not all Tamil speaking people are of Dravidian ethnicity

The opening sentence in the lede says "Tamils are a dravidian ethnic group", edited by an IP without sources. However, there are many online sources (both historic & scientific) that say "Tamil speaking brahmins/tam-brahms" are indo-aryan/aryan/non-dravidian people who settled in the tamil land. So, is this page only about "ancestral/native" tamils? However i see brahmin individuals listed under the "notable tamils" section and in the infobox. And for those who argue that "they may not be non-natives", i must say that controversial & challenged data with contradicting sources calls for either "changing the description of these people" or "removal of certain indivuduals" from the lists & the infobox. Defining ethnicity as "the state of belonging to a social group that has a common cultural tradition" in this case, the cultural traditions of brahmins vary from that of the other tamils.

Sources:

  • Regional+Cultural origins: [2] - The paragraph starts with "occupation of South by people from the North possessing or professing Aryan culture", refers to "Vadagalai Iyengars" & "Vadama Iyers" (certain sub-sects of Iyengars & Iyers, who happen to be tamil speaking brahmins) under that category. And please don't come up with "Does it mean north of the tamil country or North India?" goof-ups. Reading the entire page of the source, one can easily find out that the author has given a "North Indian + Aryan culturual" origin for these brahmin communities
  • Cultural Practices that form an integral part of one's ethnicity: according to these sources [3], [4], [5] the Vadakalai branch of Iyengars base their life and worship on agamas, which they call pancharatra samhitas/agamas - a tradition which is of Kashmirian origin. source:[6], [7]
  • Etymologies of tam-brahm caste names: [8] - Iyengar or Ayyangaru is the honorific plural of Ayya which is an eroded version of Arya.
  • Historic works by renowned foreign (neutral party) authors : [9] Pg.13, Madras in the Olden Times by James Talboys Wheeler - The author says "The Brahmins next appeared on scene; a people altogether different, and belonging not to the Tartar or Turanian race, but to the same great Arian Race as the Greeks & Romans"
  • DNA/Race oriented differences : A 2007 study on genomic affinities among 43 global populations revealed that Iyengars and European-Americans were grouped into a separate cluster, based on allele frequencies.[10](Pg.5, Fig.2-Unrooted Neighbor Joining Tree of 43 Global Populations, A Genetic Structure of the Early Immigrants) Among the nine caste populations of Tamil Nadu that were tested, Iyengars along with Iyers formed a separate cluster.[11](Pg.4, Results: Genomic Affinities among Populations, and Fig.1 Unrooted Neighbor Joining Tree - Nine caste Populations of Tamil Nadu, A Genetic Structure of the Early Immigrants).

Note: According to Fig.1 based on which the tamil nadu castes alone are discussed, the results are based on relative similarities/distances among the 9 castes tested. But the closest similarities are seen in FIG.2 where Iyengar brahmins are clustered along with "european-americans". Infact they form a closer cluster with white americans than with Iyers(the other tam-brahm community). But Fig.1 simply shows relative similarities/genetic distances among the 9 tamil nadu castes. That being the case, i suppose Fig.2 that took 43 global populations into account, gives a more accurate picture than fig.1.

Some wiki editors are not taking genetic studies into account as the field is still open to interpretation, as they believe, and they avoid it in order to restrict editors from indulging in own research & POV pushing that may go unnoticed. While the above results are obvious, you may invite editors working on WP:Genetics, just in case there are users who want to challenge them and/or interpret them diffferently.

Tamil may be an ethnicity. But it seems that may not be true in the case of tamil brahmins. According to the sources tamil brahmins are both culturally & racially/genetically different from that of the other/mainstream tamils. These sources don't speak of race-mixing or intermarriages, but rather indicate these castes to be different and foreign compared to the regular tamil populace. They are too big to be omitted. It seems "brahmins may not be ancestral tamils/dravidians". So, either we have to change the article's title to "Ancestral tamil people" if you want to define them as a "dravidian ethnic group" and remove the names & photos of brahmin individuals from the infobox, or "stop portraying all Tamils to be dravidians". Even if any editor here provides sources that contradict these ones, it still calls for these changes as "challenged/controversial materials" are to be removed and/or changed. Or, these people could be mentioned as exceptions to the dravida ethnicity, in the lede note. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 00:07, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is a minefield. As a result of mixing with other ethnic groups no ethic group can claim to be "pure". You may be correct in saying that some Tamils have Aryan ancestry but the overwhelming will be Dravidian. Similarly not all north Indians are of Aryan descent, they may have other ethnic backgrounds such as Dravidian. The Dravidian peoples article states that "Dravidian people are people whose native speech belongs to the Dravidian language family". The Tamil language is a Dravidian language. Therefore Tamil people are Dravidians. Please also bear in mind that this article has passed the high standards required to be a Featured Article.--obi2canibetalk contr 13:21, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Dravidian people aren't an ethnic group or a race. They are people who speak Dravidian languages. Even if you are correct that Tamil Brahmins are "Aryan" they still qualify as Dravidian people because they speak a Dravidian language - Tamil.--obi2canibetalk contr 19:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Did you read the whole article(Dravidian people wiki' page)> Under the section "classification", dravidian has been described as an "ethnic group". If the lede says something different, then the editors have summarized the page wrongly and have presented it that way in the lede. I can't help it. It's just another wiki article, not a citable source, which has failed in the GA criteria, probably because of the summary in the lede. My revert was right. Hari7478 (talk) 20:44, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Additionally ethno-linguistics is also defined as "cultural linguistics". That again doesn't correspond to "linguistics alone". Both "ethnicity" & "ethno-linguistics" have a lot to do with culture, and not just the language alone. If the editors in the past have failed to provide sources that say otherwise about a small group within, and if this has been overlooked while awarding the "featured" status, that doesn't mean that the new sources don't qualify for addition/modification. I'm pretty sure about my edits. Hari7478 (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
(Now you're prepared to talk. If you're so sure of yourself why remove my post on your talk page? I note that you also remove other posts on your talk page, including warnings.)
The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article. You have only added your assertion that not all Tamils are Dravidians in the lead, you have not added it the main body of the article. I tried to remove ethnicity/race from the lead earlier but you re-inserted it. All of this suggest you are trying to make a point or just bash Dravidians.
As a compromise I suggest the following for the lead:" Tamil people (Tamilதமிழர், tamiḻar (singular) ?, or Tamilதமிழர்கள், tamiḻarkaḷ (plural) ?), also known as Tamilians or simply Tamils, are a people who speak Tamil, a Dravidian language. "--obi2canibetalk contr 21:18, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Since you're linking "tamil" to the tamil language page(where in the lede note it says "tamil is a dravidian language"), it makes the "dravidian language" addition to this page unnecessary. I would rather say we continue with the "dravidian ethnic group" thingy, and add a brief description about the tam-brahms as an "exception", in the lede. That way, we wont be leaving anything out from the version(that got the "featured status"), and at the same time some additional data with reliable sources wouldn't hurt. By the way, i simply like to keep my barnstars and remove the other messages, including praises. You personally attacked me on my talk page which you shouldn't have, and most of all "wiki doesn't encourage moving article talk discussions to user talk pages". Hari7478 (talk) 21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
The reason why I posted on your talk page was that you were ignoring this discussion - you made two edits (1; 2) without discussing here. It was only after I made a post on your talk page you resumed this discussion.
Why do you wish to bring up ethnicity? Why do you only want to include it the lead - why not in the main body of the article? What point are you trying to make?
New compromise, I am willing to leave out Dravidian language: Tamil people (Tamilதமிழர், tamiḻar (singular) ?, or Tamilதமிழர்கள், tamiḻarkaḷ (plural) ?), also known as Tamilians or simply Tamils, are a people who speak Tamil. "--obi2canibetalk contr 12:39, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
That would be just fine. And please don't try to dupe me. I'm not the one who brought up ethnicity in the lede. I've been seeing the lede section with mention of "dravidian ethnic group" for a long time in this article. But when i provided sources that say indian tamil brahmins are aryan & not dravidian, and when i tried to make the corrections based on this, now you're willing to remove it from the lede. Whatever, I'm okay with this version. But there's always some anon ip who wants to re-add it. It often happens in tamil & kannada related articles, i suppose. Let's make sure it doesn't happen. I repeat: your last version is good. Hari7478 (talk) 16:36, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
You have not proven that Tamil Brahmins are Aryan, all you have done is provided some dubious genetic studies and some original research. You have been told in other discussions about using genetics to push you own point of view but yet you still do it. You didn't just try to remove Dravidian from the lead, you also removed the navigation template - you were clearly trying erase all reference to Dravidian in this article. This follows a long pattern of anti-Dravidian editing. Nevertheless I am willing to accept the compromise to avoid further conflict.--obi2canibetalk contr 12:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Those genetic studies are not dubious. In other articles, we agreed not to bring up genetics due to conflict in ways of interpreting them. We reached a consensus that "we leave out all genetic study related sources from those pages". Otherwise no one called those research papers dubious. Apart from the genetic study, i've provided two secondary sources from foreign authors that say tamil brahmins are aryan and another source regarding the etymology of Ayyar/Ayyangar surnames that say "ayya" in Ayyer and ayyengar is an eroded form of arya. You are welcome to ask any admin to review my sources. Now, let me list some responses of yours that might not exactly fall in line with "TP guidelines". First of all, providing diff of my edits and/or tp discussions in other pages, here in this article's talk page calls for an ANI complaint. Adding more support to your behavior is your "repeated name-calling" in this article'a talk page. Now that everything is settled, i hope you stop this behavior already. I've been too patient here. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 03:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Recent reverts

These removals are without foundation, the images all have licences, and are all free. Stop removing them. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Happened again, something fishy is going on. In the past month, there has been a sudden spike in editing this article, mainly these images; I've counted more than five users (some newly registered + IP) removing these images and adding their own for no apparent reason. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 06:44, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2014

In the related groups.. Please remove Aryans ( Tamil Brahmins)

They are the same people are are not a different group!

Just a different Varna .. thats all! They still fall under the (Tamil people) category.


175.136.32.17 (talk) 14:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Not done Please provide a piece of source for the purpose of verification. And be more clear when you make an edit request. Suggest this way, "Replace XXX with YYY" or "Add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ". Regards, Anupmehra -Let's talk! 15:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Tamil people

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Tamil people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "hindu1":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 02:15, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

"without a nation of their own"

To people who are restoring "without a nation of their own" in the intro, please provide a verifiable source. I couldn't find anything like this in the source currently cited in the article (N. Subrahmanian, pp. 150-158). If I'm wrong, please provide the exact quote.

The term "stateless nation" conjures up an image of a repressed, helpless group. While this might be true for Sri Lankan Tamil people in the context of the SL Civil War, it's not applicable to the Tamils as a whole (e.g. those living in India or Singapore). If you want to retain this phrase in the intro, please provide a clear reference. utcursch | talk 01:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Collage ancient figure

There must be someone who was good in both prose and poetry during ancient times . I don't have much knowledge . I think these pages might be handy .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangam_literature

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Great_Epics_of_Tamil_Literature --C E (talk) 14:01, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Michael was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolk%C4%81ppiyam
  3. ^ name="vedic religion"
  4. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkaappiyam