Talk:Ted Bundy

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Good article Ted Bundy has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

"died in" vs. "was executed"[edit]

An ongoing edit war has seen User:DoctorJoeE continually change the description of Bundy's death to "died in the electric chair." To me, this is ridiculously and unnecessarily ambiguous. He was executed. There's no debate about that. What possible benefit to the reader is realized by describing that event as "he died in the electric chair"? I don't even understand the purpose of making that verbiage more ambiguous. I'd like to hear it, if there is one. Rockypedia (talk) 17:45, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

There was no edit war until you started one. The original edit (by another user) was reverted per WP:BRD, with an invitation to discuss -- with no response. You responded with "fuck your edit war" -- as if one BRD revert constitutes an edit war -- and continued to insist on your preferred wording -- and then tried to claim that your change was the original wording, which it obviously was not. What is "ambiguous" about "died in the electric chair"? Is that not, by definition, an execution? Does anyone of reasonable intelligence need it explained to them that when a prisoner is placed in an electric chair and electrocuted to death, that that constitutes an execution? Readers are not idiots; they do not need to be spoon fed. Normally I would not waste time arguing a minor content dispute like this; I was perfectly willing to discuss this with the editor who made the original change, had he wished to. But when you interfere with a routine BRD by shouting, "fuck your edit war", and try to force your preferred terminology on the community, the community will nearly always push back. If you can gain consensus for your preferred descriptor, so be it; if not, we'll go back to the original, longstanding content, per WP guidelines. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 18:16, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
How is "died in the electric chair" more specific than "was executed by electric chair"? Rockypedia (talk) 01:17, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Additionally, across all of Wikipedia, the phrase "died in the electric chair appears 6 times. "executed by electric chair" appears 54 times. It's clearly the preferred verbiage, which is not surprising, as it makes far more sense. Rockypedia (talk) 01:34, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Well, let's see if anyone agrees with you. So far, zippo. The fact is, either way, everyone knows what you mean. And I don't care that other article editors have dropped the ball on this. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:25, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
The fact that no one besides you and I have read this talk page in the last 2 days is hardly evidence of "zippo" editors agreeing with me. And "I don't care" doesn't strike me as a particularly persuasive argument. How is it "dropping the ball" to use the more specific description? You still haven't explained why you think the non-sensical "died in" is the better phrasing. I'd also remind you that your odd battle for the "state-sanctioned homicide" phrasing was roundly rejected once an RfC was started, and I'm pretty sure an RfC here would end up the same way. I'm also curious why you waited a full day(!) before removing that RfC from the talk page. Do you have no answers for any of those questions? Rockypedia (talk) 15:15, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Frankly, I'm happy with either description of the death of Bundy in the electric chair. What I do object to is the obscenities and juvenile comments from Rockypedia. It should also be pointed-out to this "contributor" that editors do have a life outside Wikipedia and cannot comment to every single remark the day it is published. David J Johnson (talk) 10:21, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
No worries, David, I've been here way too long to take such bait. You may have noticed that he also attempted to reopen a closed RFC (immediately reversed by a bot). The reason I archived it - as I explained at the time - was that consensus had clearly shifted, so there was nothing left to discuss. In multiple previous discussions, consensus had always been to go with the terminology in the source -- which was Bundy's death certificate. I still object to ignoring sources, but the debate went the other way this time, and I was tired of arguing about it anyway, so I conceded the point, which made the AFC moot.
All this is irrelevant to the current question, of course, which is: Do readers need to have it explained to them that when someone dies in an electric chair, that it's an execution? I don't think so -- and so far, no one else does, either. I would also point out that "executed by" is inaccurate (and sounds illiterate) -- Bundy was not executed by the electric chair; he was executed by the State of Florida using an electric chair. So the proper wording would be, "executed in the electric chair" -- which returns us to the question of whether that's an improvement over "died in the electric chair" -- and in my view, it is not. "Executed" is not "more specific" than "died" -- what else takes place in an electric chair? -- it's just redundant. And you'll need a better argument than argumentum ad populum - a basic WP principle is that each article stands on its own. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 23:25, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
If you're so sure that "executed" is the same thing as "died in", start an RfC and let's see what the community thinks. Rockypedia (talk) 00:34, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
This has evolved into a classic WP:IDHT, hasn't it? One more time: it is the responsibility of the user who wants to make the change to gain consensus for that change. Since we are now over 3 weeks out, with no interest or support (let alone consensus) for your contention that "died in the electric chair" is not self-evident, we are going to return to the original, longstanding wording. I hope you will have the grace to drop the stick, just as I did with the state-sanctioned homicide debate that you keep re-referencing. Besides, as you are probably aware, the community tends to regard RfCs over changing one or two words of content, particularly when previous discussions have generated little or no interest, to be a waste of everyone's time. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Your opinions here seem to be remarkably self-serving. The previous RfC attracted no less than 35 comments and votes in a little over 24 hours, and you claim "previous discussions have generated little or no interest"? Wow. In addition, this RfC, should you wish to start it, will most likely go the same way, as it's a very similar change that was proposed in the previous one. Going on that precedent alone, it's obvious to me that the wording you've just changed (again to your preferred version) is the one the community would say makes more sense. But that's just my opinion; start the RfC and let's be done with it. Rockypedia (talk) 15:10, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Read it more carefully; I wrote that THIS discussion has generated no interest over a 3-week period. And yet again, the onus is on the one proposing the change to gain consensus for it, which you have not done. So stop changing the wording in the article, until you can gain consensus for doing so. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 00:50, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 August 2017[edit]

Change: Ted Bundy's 1968 Volkswagen Beetle, the venue for many of his crimes, on display at the now-defunct National Museum of Crime & Punishment[87][88]

to

Ted Bundy's 1968 Volkswagen Beetle, the venue for many of his crimes, is now on display at Alcatraz East Crime Museum.[1] Drish21 (talk) 16:28, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Wikipedia page and the post from Alcatraz East just aren't enough here. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 19:01, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
I agree; the photo shows the car when it was on display at the NMCP, which is what the caption says. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Request for comment on the first sentence in the 4th paragraph of the lead[edit]

Resolved: It's snowing.Consensus is to support Option A.Winged Blades of GodricOn leave 16:11, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

How should the 1st sentence of the 4th paragraph of the lead, which describes how Ted Bundy died, read?

Option A: Bundy was executed by electric chair at Florida State Prison.... etc.

Option B: Bundy died in the electric chair at Florida State Prison... etc.

Please leave your answer in the Survey section below. Thank you. Rockypedia (talk) 04:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • Option A - I find "died in the electric chair" to be needlessly ambiguous. Why would we not state the actual cause of death in the lead? ie, Bundy was executed. He didn't have a stroke while being strapped into the electric chair, or die of any other cause - he was executed by electric chair. Rockypedia (talk) 04:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A - Far more accurate. I dislike these generic generalisations and these generics in language. Lets have less ambiguity. scope_creep (talk) 10:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A. B Makes it sound as he just sat down on a museum piece and just happened to have a heart attack. He was executed (which is material) - and the means of execution (interesting, but less material than being executed) was an electric chair.Icewhiz (talk) 11:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option B. Really? Does anyone really believe that anyone dies of natural causes in an electric chair? "Died in the electric chair" is self-evident. Isn't it? I can't believe we're arguing over this. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 12:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Unnecessary "Survey". As I have stated before, I really have no view on which format the death is noted. To argue over such a minor point is frankly stupid and a gross overreaction. What I strongly object to is Rockypedia's snide and obscene comments when making a reversion. Take a look at his Talk page history for reference. Surely he can edit without the juvenile remarks? David J Johnson (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
I just saw them. Nobody needs or wants gross snide statements like that, and they are in there forever. scope_creep (talk) 14:28, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A - That he was executed is surely the most pertinent fact. Why avoid saying it? Option B is needless use of the passive voice. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option B -- there really is no need to be redundant here. If he was on the electric chair, of course he was executed.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by KindleReader (talkcontribs) 21:27, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
comment This user started an account mere hours after the other 2 option b votes were registered, then somehow miraculously found his way to this particular RfC and made his fourth edit with a vote, despite having "just getting started with Wikipedia." Are you kidding me? I suggest that this RfC be limited to confirmed users that were confirmed before the RfC started. Rockypedia (talk) 23:18, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Update This user was blocked via checkuserblock-account on 24 Aug 2017. Rockypedia (talk) 11:10, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
If he was, of course, executed, then why not say it? Why must the reader read into what is implied? This is practically WP:EUPHEMISM. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 11:35, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A - I see no reason to exclude the word "executed", its more descriptive yet still neutral. Meatsgains (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A - This person was obviously executed for crimes that he was convicted of committing. Guy1890 (talk) 05:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A - is what I personally prefer and it is accurate, but I would point out that probably the reason the sentence once said Bundy died in the electric chair is because that is what the source says that is supporting that sentence - Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer, died today in the electric chair. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
comment I would add a note that the entire piece is written in a flowery manner, more like a novel than a straight news piece: "after a night of weeping and praying, just as the sun rose over the north Florida plains...", "Gone was the storied cockiness. He was ashen..." etc. It would probably be a good idea to find a more news-type piece as a source. Rockypedia (talk) 23:56, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A (Summoned by bot) if "died in the chair" directly means "executed in the chair", then by all means go straight to the bottom. L3X1 (distænt write) 13:03, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Option A - Far more accurate. The sentence of the court. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kieronoldham (talkcontribs)

"Stephanie Brooks" Identity[edit]

It seems the widely accepted identity for the object of Bundy's affection seems to be "Diane Edwards". However, there doesn't seem to be any reference to that in the article, nor can I find an external source that explicitly states that's her real name. If I manage to find one, is it okay to add that to the article? I don't see why her identity needs to remain hidden if it can be outed from a simple Google search. --155.52.47.40 (talk) 19:30, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

This seems to have implications to WP:PRIVACY and I would strongly suggest that you read this initially. Any quoted sources must be reliable per WP:RS and should be discussed fully with other editors via WP:RfC. Personally, I can see no reason to "out" this person and intrude on their privacy, but await further comments from other experienced editors. David J Johnson (talk) 20:00, 5 September 2017 (UTC)