Talk:The Holocaust

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Former good article nominee The Holocaust was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Edit request: German euthanasia ("Action T4") until August 1941, then Jewish genocide ("Holocaust")[edit]

Could a registered editor please replace the following confusing paragraph in the lead:

From 1941 to 1945, Jews were systematically murdered in one of the deadliest genocides in history, which was part of a broader aggregate of acts of oppression and killings of various ethnic and political groups in Europe by the Nazi regime.[7] Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics and the carrying out of the genocide. Other victims of Nazi crimes included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Romanis, communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses and the mentally and physically disabled.[8][9]

with this chronological correction:

Prior to the Jewish genocide, mentally and physically disabled Germans and Austrians had been secretively murdered from 1939 until 1941 under the Action T4 programme. When Action T4 was halted in August 1941 under pressure from von Galen, the personnel and the techniques were soon re-deployed to Poland for implementing industrial-scale killings in mobile death vans, and for establishing extermination camps with gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews.[1] Other victims after August 1941 included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Sinti and Romani (gypsies), communists, homosexuals, and Jehovah's Witnesses.[8][9]

And on a completely different matter, could this careless and unsourced sentence please be removed:

"Germany's invasion of Poland in September 1939 increased the urgency of the "Jewish Question".

I am sure it was not the Wikipedia author's intention to sound like a Nazi, but unfortunately that is what it sounds like. Alternatively, please put the sentence in quotation marks and cite a source, to make completely clear that it is not a Wikipedia point of view. Thank you.

firms and concerns in the holocaust[edit]

konzerne - beispiele[edit]

BMW - Quandt und die Göbbels Connection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpQpgd_EeWY

Opel General Motors - David James Mooney , Vergasungs-Lkw Opel Blitz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSflzubxN5g

Volkswagen - Gründung durch Adolf Hitler, vollständige Gründung und Kontrolle des Konzerns unter Adolf Hitler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc34hc8tXO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qd1GD9iXzo

Deutsche Bahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVLc7TwlBcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTjAjMRIyOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5EGpR4we1c speditions-firma, kz deportationen

Siemens zug-bau-konzern, elektrische züge seit 1879, Betreiber des KZ Auschwitz-Aussenlager-Bobrek, strom-zaun von Auschwitz, baute die züge, mit denen kz-insassen deportiert wurden ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLZtOzHblA8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jptb4v1aBGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUikwfkxUyQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobrek_concentration_camp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPL1iq946Pg http://www.projektzeitlupe.de/de/ernadevries/essays/gfx/siemens.jpg http://www.projektzeitlupe.de/de/ernadevries/essays/pdf/Das%20Siemens-Lager%20in%20Ravensbrueck.pdf

BASF, Bayer, Agfa, Aventis-Sanofi, Höchst, Kodak, I.G. Farben - chemie-konzern, arznei-mittel-konzern, zyklon b hersteller, präparat be1039(mengele experimente) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQPHEh0SsoA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.G._Farben https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben#World_War_II_overview http://www.relay-of-life.org/images/speech_20071114/image12.jpg http://www.relay-of-life.org/images/speech_20071114/image15.jpg https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ig%20farben%20managers&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=ig%20farben%20managers&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk= http://www4ger.dr-rath-foundation.org/images/igmanagers%5B1%5D.jpe


Flick - Der Flick-Konzern ist an der Errichtung des KZ Auschwitz beteiligt gewesen ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO8vmMIdUxQ https://cover.archinform.net/m/9783570551431.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Friedrich_Flick_Nuremberg.JPG/220px-Friedrich_Flick_Nuremberg.JPG


Thyssen-Krupp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JefT_xV7MRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5CWO0hWUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE5YbGJnr9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8AdSHKywEU


Dr. Oetker - Gründer sind NSDAP Mitglieder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzAjv76Z5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naSs7SxQqAI

Messerschmidt GmbH - wurde von Bölkow, später Airbus aufgekauft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nNdDkyiANo

... Nasa - Raumfahrt-Konzern , Wernher von Braun, V2 Rakete https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELE1q1JzMKs

Daimler

Adidas Puma - gegründet bei der olympiade 1936 von adolf dassler und rudolf dassler, betreibt zwangsarbeits-lager in 3.welt gebieten ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4e2t0W2uIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i2ZUnBGLiQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EApi8iKZV9k


Metro Group AG - Gründer des Konzerns ist Dr. Beisheim , LSSAH Mitglied https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESepvE3uvw


IBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOJwA6NGZTE https://ironboltbruce.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/ibm_holocaust.jpg?w=510 https://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ibm-2.jpg?w=450&h=676 https://www.amazon.de/Holocaust-Verstrickung-Weltkonzerns-Verbrechen-Nazis/dp/3549071302/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1468002485&sr=8-2&keywords=edwin+black

Deutsche Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank#1933.E2.80.931945

Continentale AG Varta - Hersteller von Reifen im 2. wk, betreiber vom kz stöcken, kz limmer Standard Oil Monsanto Bertelsmann - Verbreiter von "Mein Kampf", auch nach 1945 hat der berstelsmann konzern "mein kampf" verbreitet, Bertelsmann besitzt die RTL-Group und verbreitet haus eigene Propaganda

Die Medien-Konzerne UFA

Wiesenhof - KZ ähnliche Massentierhaltung

Aventis Sanofi - kaufte den Zyklon-B-Konzern Höchst auf

Hugo Boss - HJ uniforms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_8A9R_cafQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb2dDP3ohGE

Chase National Bank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXh7HfEFhik

RWE, Vattenfall, Eon EnBW - lieferte den Strom für elektrische Zäune und Scheinwerfer in KZs http://www.kz-auschwitz.de/pix/photos/e_zaun09.jpg

OSRAM - Scheinwerfer in KZs

Telefunken - Hersteller von dem Propaganda-Radio, Die "Göbbels-Schnauze" genannt

Lufthansa

Arcor, Vodafone, Mannesmann http://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachrichtenfoto/joseph-goebbels-29-10-1897-politician-nazi-party-nachrichtenfoto/548180151

AfD for Holocaust historian[edit]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Romanovsky I started the original article and voted neutral on the AfD. The deleters actually have a good case based on WP policy, but something doesn't feel right. Thanks.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 15:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

The article ended up deleted.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 02:41, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Unsure if I agree with that close, based merely on Google scholar cites, which guidelines say we should be cautious about using. Irondome (talk) 14:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree. There is a deletion review process. I don't think I should initiate it since I wrote the article in the first place.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 15:38, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
By all means, User:Thoughtmonkey, please initiate a deletion review since it was you who wrote the article. There were eight "keep" !votes there, and only five "delete" !votes. Not exactly a snowball closure. Meanwhile, the article was entirely missing the fact that Danila [Daniel] Romanovsky was a a long-time Soviet dissident (refusenik in Russian) politically active under the Soviet system. Seminars on history of Jews were held in his Leningrad apartment in the 1980s. People like him were dying in staged car accidents. Please find out if there's a possibility of developing that part of his bio better this time.[1] Poeticbent talk 18:01, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I will go ahead and start the review.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 August 3 Thoughtmonkey (talk) 18:48, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Strongly agree with Poeticbent's additional points. 8-5 in addition do not a consensus make. A poor close imo. Irondome (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
In commenting on Jujutacular’s puzzling decision (to me) to delete the Romanovsky piece, I said that I would drop the issue and move on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jujutacular#top But I am going back on that decision to support Thoughtmonkey and Poeticbent as they are reiterating the points I made on Jujutacular’s talk page. I might add that as a member of a society which makes its decisions by consensus, I do not recognise Jujutacular’s idea of consensus which overrides a majority of votes. Furthermore, maybe the notability guidelines have a role (but even here not the only role) in deciding to create an article, but as I have already said, I am uncomfortable deleting a referenced article which contains useful info. Heavens know that I have come across many a WP article which seems to me trivial, but I have never thought that they should be deleted. That smacks of book burning. Joel Mc (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't think it has anything to do with hostility toward Mr Romanovsky, at least I hope not. It seems like the deletionists here are more into WP as a Who's Who for professors.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 19:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
I am following the principle of "Let the Wookiee win". Thoughtmonkey (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm pleased, and surprised, that someone stepped up and reopened the AfD. It's still not decided.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 14:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Now closed as "no consensus", which means keep without hurting deletionists' feelings.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 04:08, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Historiography section or article[edit]

So right now revising the Holocaust is nominated for deletion with many people supporting this saying that it doesn't need its own article because discussion of historiography could be done on the main article.

Is it actually feasible to do this? The whole reason I began a new article is because this one looked big and full already and I didn't want it to get too cluttersome. Historiography can be seen by some as too trivial a thing to include in a subject's overview.

If I included it here would the section likely stand or would it be a waste of time? I'm not really of the opinion that historiography should be included in main articles. I think they have a place in encyclopedias but more as an 'under the hood' afterthought. The casual reader is going to want to know the current consensus, not the past consensi.

Should I have called this Holocaust historiography as a main article for the Category:Holocaust historiography or similar? I know very little about what changes have happened over time among legitimate historians. I only had 4 sources to begin with:

  • Lichtblau, Eric (1 March 2013). "The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking". Archived from the original on 2 March 2013. When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500. 

I figured as long as the subject could be opened that others who knew more could provide other changes in the popular viewpoint as they were recorded. I just want a place where historiography is focused on, where we don't just learn about what we presently think about the Holocaust, but WHEN we came to think those things. IE who presented the idea, when they did so, when a proposal became commonly accepted among scholars, when it got amended due to new findings, etc.

Surely historiography does have a place in encyclopedias right? Ranze (talk) 17:15, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

If you meant "historiography of the Holocaust", Revising the Holocaust was an most unfortunate title. Of course historiography of the Holocaust is an important subject. One of the formost historians working on the historiography of the Holocaust is Dan Stone. His most important book is: Histories of the Holocaust. Others which give added value are: Constructing the holocaust : a study in historiography; and, The historiography of the holocaust / ed. by Dan Stone. I don’t have time at the moment to give you the full references, but you should have no problem in finding them. Joel Mc (talk) 17:59, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that in this field the verb 'revise' is such a tainted word, I don't know of observing historical revisionism being a taboo on any other subject. I'm going to have a go at special:diff/735583702. Beginning with just a couple facts I guess a section is enough... but if I incorporate a bunch more facts like for example this Stone's books, I just worry it would grow too large and need to be split to a new page to keep this article from getting too big or getting to much emphasis over other stuff. I guess we can do that when it's needed though. Not sure where in the page to put it... but I guess someone will move it if I choose wrong. Ranze (talk) 23:13, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Yad VaShem holdings[edit]

Please edit the article to include the current holdings of the museum: From the museum's Names database FAQ: Questions about the Database > How many names are there in the Names Database? "More than 6.5 million personal records from a multitude of original sources appear in the Names Database... Currently, we estimate the number of separate individual victims who were murdered and are commemorated in the Names Database to be 4.5 million. In addition, the Database contains partial information on hundreds of thousands of victims whose fate cannot be determined on the basis of the sources available to us..." Please update the reference in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.67.6.46 (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

This is the paragraph in need of editing: "The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed, but has been able to find documentation of more than three million names of Jewish victims killed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.67.6.46 (talk) 21:44, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

More than 11 million?[edit]

Is the high estimate of 11 million based on Simon Wiesenthal's figure? I came across a calculation Roberto Muehlenkamp made where 14 million victims is another possible figure:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.at/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims-part-2.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8388:502:3D80:AC82:C466:B90C:A932 (talk) 16:21, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

  1. ^ Sereny 1983, p. 54. Role of T4 "Inspector" Christian Wirth in the Holocaust.