Talk:The March (1945)

Untitled

I am moving this article from the title "The March" to "Lamsdorf Death March". At writing, none of the links to the title "The March" actually refers to this event, so I think the title "The March" is better made into a disambiguation. -- Infrogmation 02:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I tend to disagree - Lamsdorf was only one of the many PoW camps involved. Most survivors I have spoken with have called it "The March" or "The Trek". -- Regards Oldfarm 21:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I am completely open to other titles, but as "The March" has often been used to refer to other notable things as well, I think we need some way to disambiguate this one. Suggestions? -- Infrogmation 01:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I repeat -- I have spoken to many survivors (including my father), and they always referred to the event as "The March". I take exception to the "Lamsdorf Death March" since this is pov from only one PoW camp (Stalag VIII-B). The problem is that "The March" involved: PoWs from many camps; many nationalities (Britain, Poland, France, Holland, United States, etc); civillians from the concentration camps; as well as German civillian refugees. The only book I have seen that describes the event in detail is "The Last Escape" by Nichol and Rennell (ISBN 0670032123), and there is no overall descriptive name used. In Sam Kydds book, "For You The War Is Over" (ISBN 0859740056), he calls the event "The Great Trek". Suggestions: "The Winter Retreat From the Russian Advance 1945" is a bit of a mouthfull. How about "The Death March of 1945" or "The Great Trek West of 1945". Oldfarm 15:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Either of those seem reasonable. As far as I'm concerned, feel free to move the article to whichever of those you think better, perhaps "The Death March of 1945" seems more evocative. If I can be of assistance in the move just ask on my user talk page. I moved the article to "Lamsdorf Death March" as the article said that was alternative name for the event and I thought "The March" should be a disambiguation page. I don't doubt that most involved simply called it "The March"-- the problem with entitling the article that way is that other things have also been called "The March". I think this is the type of eventuality for which disambiguation pages are intended. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 19:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I also note we presently have no article on Lamsdorf. Should we? Wondering simply, -- 02:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a tag for Stalag VIII-B Lamsdorf at List of German WWII POW camps (under Military District VIII) -- Regards Oldfarm 21:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Move to new name

I am moving this article from the title "Lamsdorf Death March" to "The Forced March from the Eastern Front", since Lamsdorf was only one of scores of PoW camps involved. Oldfarm 00:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Since most POWs call it "The March" then it should be called "The March", anything else is original research. How about simply The March (1945). This is how things are normally done when an event has the same name across multiple dates. See for example Siege of Jerusalem which contains 7 separate sieges and articles under the same name. --Stbalbach 06:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, answers all my reservations regarding other names Oldfarm 13:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Fine by me. -- Infrogmation 14:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

–25 ... well below zero

The text says:

"January and February 1945 were among the coldest winter months of the twentieth century, with blizzards and temperatures as low as -25, even until the middle of March temperatures were well below zero."

Is that Celsius or Fahrenheit? Whichever it is, it would be nice to provide a "translation" into the other system, since Wikipedia is read by people familiar with both. So please either "–25°C (–13°F) ... well below freezing" or "–25°F (–32°C) ... well below 0°F (–18°C)". Thanks! Angr/talk 19:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Prominente???

The article uses the word "Prominente" freely, without explanation or link. I am not a native English speaker but I am fluent, have lived in the US, and I bet 99.99% of our readers don't know what that word means. A quick search for definitions on the Web was fruitless. After more research I surmise that it is a German word and was a jargon term for POWs related to Allied VIPs. I don't consider myself an authority on the subject to explain the term, but it needs an explanation. --Ramalho (talk) 20:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Medical Problems on March

I am mystified by the medical problems discussed in this article, particularly diphtheria and pellagra and, notable by its absence, dysentery. My understanding from various books on this subject and my father's accounts of his experience on the march from Stalag XXB, is that dysentery was the major problem. This was because most of the eastern part of Greater Germany was on the move (away from the Russians). Different groups camped in the same places on different nights; with no sanitation, cross-infection was inevitable. I understand that many afflicted POWs soiled themselves as they marched - there was no alternative as the guards at the tail of the column were shooting those who would not or could not go on. (Even if this rumour was not true, which weakened POW would risk finding out by getting nearer the back of the column?) Whoever contributed this unreferenced part of the article has surely got confused with POWs under the Japanese, where Pellagra did occur - but since the bulk of the meager calorie intake of a German POW was potatoes, which have a reasonable Niacin content, I would have to see some very good research to be convinced that this is not erroneous. In short, the medical problems of the POWs on this march were, in approximate order of importance: poor condition as a result of a long period on a calorie deficient diet, dysentery, freezing to death overnight, and any slight disability resulting from wounds suffered in combat or otherwise. Whilst some suffered from frostbite, I don't think this killed large numbers, though many (my father included) survived with some frostbitten tissue. There are a few other problems with this article, but the absence of mention of dysentery is a massive error. Given time, I might get to make some edits on this, but they may be rather major - so comments from others interested in this subject would be welcome. (I have tracked down some records at the Imperial War Museum that may be useful, but can't get away from home at present to examine them.) ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Timeline section

The "Timeline of POW Evacuations" section is lacking any citations. I assume it is relatively accurate, but those facts need to be cited somewhere.

The paragraphs after the "April 8, 1945 bullet" are particularly confusing. I can't tell if it is misplaced from somewhere else or if it is supposed to be describing events stemming from the evacuation of Stalag XVII-B , or.... what? The last line in all caps (that just states the name and age of a man who marched and survived) makes me wonder if this entire block of text was maybe entered by someone relaying a soldier's account or maybe getting the account from somewhere else. Either way, it is really confusing and completely lacking in citation. AnalogWeapon (talk) 21:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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deletion of Auschwitz from timeline

User:Nick-D, I note the reason for the deletion[1] of Auschwitz from the timeline - but if I recollect correctly, there was a prisoner of war camp associated with Auschwitz which housed, among others, British POWs. Does this need rephrasing with a bit of additional information, rather than deletion? I do not have an appropriate source available to identify the POW camp concerned.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 09:11, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that - please reinsert, but I'd suggest tweaking the wording to note that it's the POW camp which is being referred to here (as while the POWs suffered, it was obviously not comparable to the mass murder at Auschwitz). Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find the correct name of the POW camp before I change anything - and I also need to check that my memory is correct. No problem if you get that point sorted before I do.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 11:34, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

"Blame for the marches"

Preserving here by providing this link. Please see User talk:K.e.coffman#The March (1945) for rationale. --K.e.coffman (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I am concerned at the appropriateness of this deletion.

• The deleted text is based on a good quality source, The Last Escape, by John Nichol and Tony Rennell. It is one of the few books that seriously analyses the subject of the article. They specifically analyse the position with what Berger did and said and conclude that it stands scrutiny. (Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself.)
• The fact that Berger did some pretty horrible stuff does not alter the case that he may well have been caught out by the speed of the Russian advance, as he claimed. He probably did argue with Hitler for the benefit of POWs (as Nichol and Rennell conclude). I don't think Wikipedia censors history because it includes something good about someone who is overall bad.
• The subject (blame for the marches) needs expanding. In my understanding, you need to look at the huge volume of civilians who were also trying to escape the Russians - some of whom were marching through the same winter weather. I believe (and will work on finding a reference) that this was due to a policy of not evacuating anyone from the Russian advance as that was perceived as being defeatist. This may well have come from the top (Hitler, or those immediately close to him) - and it was a policy that existed before everything went wrong and there was the apparent meeting with Berger.
• If you are looking for blame, the inept building of a case against Berger and anyone else has to be mentioned.

I think this needs a clear discussion on this talk page (rather than a user talk page), with clear logical decisions on reaching the right conclusion. If you are going to ignore Nichol and Rennell, I don't thing the article is worth having.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Possibly worth looking at German evacuation from Central and Eastern Europe (and associated articles) for background. Here you will find the view that civilian evacuation tended to be left late and that it could be chaotic (e.g. Silesia). This is the context in which POWs were evacuated.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:43, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Nick-D: since you expressed concerns about this section, do you have an opinion on the matter? --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:17, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

In absence of any comment from User:Nick-D, and based on examination of an additional source and with continued awareness of Nichol and Rennel as a supporting source, I have reverted the deletion of the "blame for the marches" section. I think the remedy is to properly reference the section and probably do a bit of re-writing. However, the overall thrust of the section is well supported by two serious works on the subject. I am not aware of any source that goes into similar detail (nor with a similar research base) which contradicts the position of these two sources. To pick a few pieces from Durand which are favourable to Berger: "...he hated the Russians....but repeatedly showed a willingness to risk his career, and if necessary perhaps even his life, on behalf of prisoners from the West."(p 137). Then there is the story (p347) taken by Durand from Glenn B Infield's Eva and Adolf (User:K.e.coffman - is this source/author reputable?), suggesting that Eva Braun ensured the Berger received in person, directly from Hitler, the order to use 35,000 POWs as hostages - and kill them if necessary. The suggestion is that Eva knew Berger would not comply with the order to kill them.

I will have a go at a bit of rewriting and referencing over the next few days. If anyone has a problem with the revert, please take a good look at Durand, and Nichol and Rennel. I note, also, that the article on Delmar T. Spivey mentions Berger, though whoever wrote that article did not include Spivey being a witness for the defence of Berger at his trial for war crimes. (Durand, pg 360-1).

Rest assured, I am no fan of Berger - and you may spot from comments earlier in this talk page that I grew up in a household headed by someone who was a POW for 5 years - but the actual facts are important. If someone from an ideology that we find repellent did something that saved lives or lessened the adverse effects of the regime of which they were a member, that is part of history.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:36, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

References