Talk:The Muppet Show

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Initial problems with credits, focus of article[edit]

Barkingdoc. Please italicize the names of all movies and television shows. I just stuck 'em all in but got caught in an edit conflict and don't feel like doing it again right now.

Also, I really don't think we need the whole long credits list. For one thing, it surely is a snapshot of one crew at one time and doesn't include everybody who worked for Henson Associates over the past 40 years (and, I hasten to say, shouldn't, even if you have such a list). Ortolan88

For what it is worth, that list was an edited list for The Muppet Show, and it was a fairly consistant team. But I don't think it is needed.


This article discusses the Muppets, the Muppet Show, and Henson Associates projects pretty indiscriminately. Maybe there should be some refactoring by one of the fans. Ortolan88 03:04 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

I do agree that details that are solely about other shows don't belong here, but I think that context is an important part of the article. I certainly think that history and immediate after effects are vital aspects, even if some of that context also gets repeated in other articles. The projects included on this page (right now) are only ones which are specifically credited as featuring "Jim Henson's Muppets" which I consider to be directly decended from The Muppet Show.BarkingDoc

I agree that it all goes together, but the article title is off. The article isn't just about the Muppet Show. There's already an article called Muppet and one called Jim Henson, not to mention Sesame Street. As far as I can recall, the first Muppets were seen on Washington, DC tv, then for many years on numerous national tv shows, including Ed Sullivan, then on Sesame Street, then the Muppet Show and all the rest. I think our readers might have trouble working out all the history from the articles we have, divided up the way they are, which is why I am encouraging you, a well-informed writer, to make it clearer to them.
I don't know the history as well as you do, but I'm guessing you'll be jealous to learn I once went on a tour of the Henson Associates offices in NYC when no one was there, saw all sorts of extremely neat stuff (and didn't touch a thing, but got a Kermit alarm clock). My friend, a lawyer, represented Henson before he sold out to Walt Disney. She had keys, and took us there one Sunday afternoon. Ortolan88 00:25 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC) PS- maybe my saying up above that "nobody cares" about the credit list was a little hard, but it isn't right to edit my words on a talk page. Ortolan88

First of all, I absolutely did not intend to edit your words, and I am sorry that happened--- it was an accident caused by my partially selecting the text, and I will be certain I do not make the same mistake again. I see what you are saying about the history, and I will definetly look into trying to clarify anything that might cause confusion between articles.
I am a little jealous that you got to see the NYC offices, though I met Jim a couple of times at puppetry conventions and have gotten to tour the production sets on a few projects. I would disagree with the characterization that Henson "sold out" to Disney (the company did sell Disney distribution rights, but not any creative rights.) But that is a discussion for another time and place. Thanks for your feedback. BarkingDoc��

I'm certainly jealous that you met him, and as a puppeteer! I would have met him too, through my friend, but he died so suddenly. She was very fond of him, besides being his lawyer, and she felt he was very saddened and overwhelmed by the Disney experience. I'd be glad to discuss any ideas you have for rearranging the articles, but it definitely seems you are the one to do it. Ortolan88

Impact of Muppet Show[edit]

How come the muppet show was / is such a big deal in media history. Everyone remembers it, everyone speaks of it, although it's already so many years ago. Maybe someone can explain the historical background of the Muppet Show - that makes it easier for youngsters like me to understand the phenomenon. Thanks, --Abdull 10:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the answer is the same as for the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show. The show(s) appealed not only to all youth, but to adults also. Very few shows do so... until the youth reach a more mature age. On the Muppet Show, obviously the muppets are an attraction for youth, and looking at the list of guest stars, a pattern of diverse celebrities appealing to a wide adult audience are found. Plus the interaction between the muppets and the guest stars took on a more adult (yet light hearted) angle, unlike the interactions on Sesame Street (which was specifically intended to entertain youth ).
Guy M (soapbox) June 29, 2005 23:00 (UTC)

Picture of Orson Welles[edit]

The picture of Orson Welles and Kermit is supposed to be "Orson Welles on The Muppet Show", but according to list of guests besides the picture as well as the List of episodes of The Muppet Show he was never a guest on the muppet show. I suppose the picture is either from the The Muppet Movie where Orson Welles had a role or from The Orson Welles Show where the Muppets appeared reportedly.

That's not all, man. It would seem the Spike Milligan episode is missing from the list as well.

Radical AdZ

DVD Edits[edit]

I heard there were many cuts on the season one DVD because they couldn't clear the rights to some of the songs. One example includes the big finale of the Vincent Price episode singing 'You Got A Friend'. Should this be mentioned? Jpblo

This would be very good information. But it would have to be confirmed before it was posted on Wikipedia. Val42 03:20, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I can confirm that the song in question is absent, but I can only speculate as to why. - Pulpculture 03:47, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Put in as many things that are missing as you can confirm. Don't speculate as to why. Val42 03:55, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

It's odd, because the Vincent Price's You've Got a Friend number is intact in the HMV release of The Best of the Muppet Show collection. I'll try and get some information about this release to be added to the page. Annie D 06:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

A lot of people believe it was a case of Disney just Not Trying Hard enough, considering HMV could manage the tremendous feat of not cutting things out. (in one conversation "This is a company that regularly rewrites copyright laws to suit their whims") Also, the sequence at the end of the pitch real where Kermit says "What the hell was that?" was censored out - some use the spin that it was also due to "copyright issues" with the logo, despite the logo used was a parody. I've been waiting a very long time for a complete version of the Season 1 set, since for some crazy reason I don't feel like plucking down $25+ on something extremely non-comprehensive. If/when a real set is released would be important information to the article. -- 02:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.230.59 (talk)

The article states that the German edition contains German intro and credits; I've just bought the first season and watched the first episode, and it was entirely in English. Only one ep of one season isn't enough to make an edit, but I thought I'd mention it. mjharper (talk) 18:44, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Janitor's name[edit]

Baron Von Loopy is a joke right?

I thought the janitors name was Bo-re-gard the Jan-i-door.

French spinoff[edit]

There has also been a short-lived French spinoff called "Muppets TV" in 2006, with French guests. Hektor 15:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean short-lived? Was it cancelled already? —scarecroe 16:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The Muppet Show 2.jpg[edit]

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Name of Pilot[edit]

Is it verified that the name of the pilot episode is "Sex and Violence!" - That seems very unlikely given the nature of the Muppets and the time period the pilot was released. I have heard, but cannot verify, that the title was actually "SAX and Violence!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.15.115.165 (talk) 19:54, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Sax and Violence is the name of a sketch from the first series. David French 02:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
It's definitely Sex and Violence, which was right in tune with Jim Henson's off-center humor. —scarecroe 20:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Kermit on Sesame Street[edit]

Kermit the Frog was *not* a Guest Star on Sesame Street, he was a regular character. I've amended the article as such. David French 02:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Pigs in space[edit]

Pigs in space should have its own page. Goddamn it, this injustice will not stand. Pigs in space was a mainstay of the Muppet Show and is a intrical part of American popular culture and folk story telling. Create a seperate page and then show it to me so I can grant approval...The End. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.143.96 (talk) 03:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

While "Pigs in Space" was very entertaining, I don't think that there would be enough material for its own page. But I'd like someone to prove me wrong by coming up with enough material. — Val42 21:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Muppet Wiki has separate articles on all the recurring Muppet Show sketches such as Pigs in Space. The "Pigs/Space" page explains what the sketch was about, and then lists all the episodes that the sketch appeared in with a basic plot outline. David French (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Just heard a lecture on CSPAN's Book TV by Craig Nelson about his book "Rocket Men: The Epic Story of the First Men on the Moon." He told a story that NASA originally tried animal testing using Pigs In Space. They switched to monkeys when they found out that the pigs died from suffocation due to their weight when strapped in place on their backs. If there is a separate article on Muppet Wiki, then a link to it may be helpful. 22yearswothanks (talk) 21:09, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Date of First Broadcast.[edit]

This article says that Sep. 27 is the date of the first broadcast. The Sep. 20th 1976 New York Times TV listings show the show premiering on Sep. 20th 1976 at 7:30 PM on Channel 2. And Channel 2 has a large ad on Sep. 20th saying that the Muppet Show is premiering that night with Rita Moreno as guest star. Nightkey (talk) 02:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Since the show was an English production, the airdates should really reflect either the UK or US only, if not both. David French (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Season 3 on DVD[edit]

The third season is coming to DVD in May [1] - WAAHOO! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Newbie27 (talkcontribs) 08:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Canned laughter?[edit]

It would be useful to have some info on whether the show had canned laughter or had a live audience. -Rolypolyman (talk) 13:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The show used canned laughter as the difficulties in performing a multi-sketch and thus multi-set puppet show would have been quite apparent in front of a live audience who can soon get distracted by off-screen movements in a conventional programme (ie cameras moving), let alone one as complicated as this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.137.106 (talk) 12:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the "Muppet morcels" on the 1st season dvd, the laughter IS canned. It was convincing enough that they had many inquiries about getting tickets for the filming.Herogamer (talk) 16:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

A new The Muppet Show?[edit]

I heard on Meppet Central that there may be a new Muppet Show coming out. Angie Y. (talk) 01:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I hope so. I LOVED the show as a kid Herogamer (talk) 16:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

There is already talk of a new Muppet Show revival from ABC. Here's the link: http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/muppet-show-reboot-abc-bill-prady-1201466006/ AdamDeanHall (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Character?[edit]

Does the Muppet character Mahna Mahna from the legendary sketch, whose named was later changed to Bip Bippadotta, even exist ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.12.40.172 (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

We have a whole Mahna Mahna article. Focuses more on the song (neat background there!) than the character. And the commentary about the character seems kinda confusing--definitely could use more content if you have things to add. DMacks (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Muppet Show character list hyperlinks prob[edit]

In Muppet_show#List_of_Muppet_Show_characters, someone should check all character hyperlinks to ensure they lead to either a character page or an appropriate disambiguation page. Inappropriately, Hilda leads to a page which does not list the Muppet Show Hilda at all.

An example solution for Hilda:

  1. On Hilda disambiguation page: add an entry for Hilda the Muppet Show character with hyperlink leading back to Muppet_show#List_of_Muppet_Show_characters, so people who search for "Hilda" will be able to find our Hilda info.
  2. On The Muppet Show page: either keep the Hilda hyperlink so people will see there is no page for her, or remove the hyperlink if it seems redundant.

I will work on this link checking if no one gets to it first, but I won't have time right now... help is appreciated, so thanks if you do the work! Fallendarling (talk) 16:51, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

More description of the characters[edit]

I'm very grateful there being a list of characters here but I'm personally in search of one of them, and I only have an image - I don't know his name nor what he does, just that it's all red & hairy. I think adding some descriptive words such as the COLOUR would be great help. Thanks -- Cy21discuss 14:31, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Initial article introduction as a British Program[edit]

This paragraph from the body of the article says that it is an American effort, not British: "However, the prime-time access rule had just been enacted, which took the 7:30 to 8pm ET slot from the networks and turned it over to their affiliates. CBS suggested it would be interested in Henson's proposal as a syndicated series it could purchase for its owned-and-operated stations, to run one night a week in that time slot." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.217.66.200 (talk) 18:12, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

It clearly says Henson signed a deal with a British production and distribution company after that because the american deal didn't go through. It's a British show.--Τασουλα (Almira) (talk) 23:55, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
There are two paragraphs, one indicating that CBS was interested in it, and one indicating that ITV was interested in it. Neither is cited to a source. I had always just assumed it was an American show since it was on commercial TV when I was growing up and only PBS stations showed British shows back then, I imagine most Americans would be surprised to learn it was filmed in England since there was nothing about the show that seemed particularly British. The muppets all have American accents (except that chef dude) and the show won 4 Emmys. The people operating the puppets, doing the voices, and writing the jokes were all Americans, many if not most of the guest stars were Americans and indded the article mentions that they were mostly unknown in England, and the skits parodied American pop culture icons such as Star Trek and General Hospital. But the money and the studio were British. Does that make it a "British" show? I'm really not to sure about that. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Actually, it does. Shows like Game of Thrones are undoubtedly American but feature a mostly English/British cast. Another example, Pirates of the Caribbean series, this films are American but feature again, a mostly English/British cast (With the lead role of an American playing an English pirate). The Muppet show is a British show for the same reasons those are American shows/Films. --Τασουλα (Almira) (talk) 10:26, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
This is the first time I've seen this article, and like Beeblebrox, am surprised to see the British claim, and as mentioned, there are no sources to support it. So, unless someone can show evidence here or add citation in the article, this needs to be changed/removed. --Musdan77 (talk) 18:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
So, I provided links to the ATV and Lew Grade pages showing how the programme is British in origin, and you just changed it back. The Muppet Show was made in the UK at the behest of a UK studio, that does not make it American. Beeblebrox, I am sure not all foreign shows were shown exclusively on PBS, in fact only 5 minutes of research on wikipedia shows that Monty Python successfully sued ABC for cutting part of the show to insert commercials in the USA. Looking at the wikipedia list of Emmys I only find one entry for The Muppet Show. I found multiple entries for The Tracey Ullman show (she is British) and one for Ricky Gervais Extras. Clearly winning an Emmy doesn't make something American. Finally, if you look at the history of Lew Grades ATV programmes, a lot were made with American casts or in exotic locations to help his international arm ITC sell them overseas, look at Space 1999, The Persuaders! etc 93.97.134.253 (talk) 22:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I think we've established that the nationality of this series is ambiguous. However, do we actually need it to give a nationality in its description? Why not just put "The Muppet Show is a television series produced by puppeteer Jim Henson". The rest of the lead discusses who made it and where it was made. Surely that's all we need to say? ~~ Peteb16 (talk) 23:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Pete, you could do that, but isn't it an interesting part of the history of The Muppet Show (especially with it's current cult status) that American studios wouldn't gamble on making the programme, and it was only brought to the screen by a UK company? If it had not been for this seminal series would The Muppet Movies or cartoons been made? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.134.253 (talk) 23:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I genuinely do find it very interesting, all of that should stay in the article as long as it is sourced properly (and I think it is) and no one can dispute it. Maybe I wasn't clear, I just felt that we were arguing to much over the first sentence "is a British television series" vs "is an American television series" vs "is a British-American television series". why can't we just put "is a television series"? ~~ Peteb16 (talk) 00:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree; just like it has been done on the Bee Gees article, where there had been much dispute. And (if we have consensus here), as was done there, there should be a hidden notice explaining it. --Musdan77 (talk) 04:03, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Pete, it would be nice to put "is a television series," but at the end of the day it is important to the history of the programme, also from watching it is not immediately evident that it isn't an American programme. There are lots of examples of TV shows made in the USA whose wikipedia article start with "xxx is an American TV show" even when it is immediately obvious, 3 examples being the wikipedia entries for Dallas, House, and Bones. The Muppet show is anomalous to this, it isn't an American show, but because the voice actors are American it leads to the incorrect assumption of the programme's nationality. Leaving the fist line to read "is a British..." increases a level of interest in readers like some of those above who weren't aware of the heritage of the programme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.134.253 (talk) 21:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
With respect, you say it's not an American TV show, by what qualification can you make this statement? There is no guide or rule on Wikipedia that defines how we categorise this. We simply write in the facts and verify them. No reliable source has ever said this is a British show. If it's obvious, it still needs verifying. What we do know is that an American organisation got a British TV company to film their show. We can put that, we can verify it and I believe this is enough to accurately represent the heritage of the programme and even increase the interest level, as you put it. There is a similar case to this show. Mrs. Brown's Boys, is set in Dublin, the cast is almost entirely Irish, it's got Irish crew members, it's being made with the backing of money from two Irish television companies, but it's actually commissioned and produced by the BBC and filmed in Glasgow. After the lead of the related article was changed back and forth from Irish, to British, to British and Irish and back to Irish quite a few times, I deleted the nationality all together along with an explanation on the talk page as to why I had done so. Interestingly no one has tried to put anything there since. The lead actually goes onto say it's written by Irish writer Brendan O'Carroll, which is factual and verified. People may deduce from that that the show is Irish, but that's down to the reader. We, as Wikipedia editors, are just stating verifiable facts to the best of our ability and saying that The Muppet Show is British, isn't fact, it's an unverifiable opinion. ~~ Peteb16 (talk) 02:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

My revert[edit]

I have reverted this edit by 50.104.199.48 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). The edit looks plausible, but changed a lot of long-standing information. I was able to check some of the changes to the DVD information with Amazon. The Season 3 DVD page is evidence that "Purina Dog Chow" is correct, rather than KFC. And Amazon does not list any DVDs for seasons 4 or 5, which casts doubt on the IPs addition of 2010/2011 release dates.

So, pending further explanation and evidence from the IP, I am treating the entire edit as an attempted hoax. My apologies if I have assessed this wrongly. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:53, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

various issues[edit]

I hadn't taken a good look at this in a while. It looks like this article has become a rather confusing mess.

  • The subject of this article is the muppet show, yet there is a substantial amount of content regarding the movies and the muppets that appeared in them. As the bulk of the movies were made long after the show was off the air this seems inappropriate.
  • There is also content on the Muppets sketches that were on SNL before the show. I don't recall those characters being used on the show.
  • What drew my attention here today was the addition of the Disney project tag to this page. While Dosney ,ay own the Muppets characters now, unless I am missing something they had no involvement in the tv show.

So what I am suggesting is that all content not directly related to the show be removed. Any subject not already in the main article n the Muppets it can be merged there. I also think the Disney project tag should be removed unless an explanation of how Disney has any relation to this Muppet show is forthcoming. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Your message drew me back to this article. I believe something has gone awry with a template I added some time ago to transclude the characters of the Muppets from List of Muppets, it seems the entire article is now being transcluded into the characters section along with categories and everything else. I'll try and find out why and fix it. ~~ Peteb16 (talk) 23:12, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Update: Someone had, in a good faith edit, removed the transclusion code from the List of Muppets article. They cited WP:CHECKWIKI for the reason, but I have no idea why, the code works and seems sound. I've undone the edit which has returned this article back to normal. ~~ Peteb16 (talk) 23:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Original Research "episodes"[edit]

An anonymous user added general information on the seasons in the List of The Muppet Show episodes. As I felt that article was meant as a list, I replaced the pieces and put them together under "Episodes". The content however does not cite any references, although it adds rather specific information (moment new characters and sketches are introduced, muppeteers coming and leaving). To me it looks as if someone added a lot of original research to the list. I replaced it, not deleting it out of sympathy for the anonymous contributor, but still have great doubts as to the reliability of the information. This section definitely needs to cite its sources. Wikiklaas (talk) 00:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Muppet Theater page[edit]

Seeing as Sesame Street has it's own location page, I am suggesting that the Muppet Theater gets it's own page to detail more info about it and to have someplace where it's media appearances can be detailed as well. What do you think? Rtkat3 (talk) 7:19, April 21 2013 (UTC)

I think the main problem is that this section lacks sources and is tagged as probably original research, not that it is too long to keep it in the article. The fact that Sesame Street has a separate article on its location is in itself no ground for the Muppet Show to have its location moved to a separate article. What would you like to add and, more important, what sources would you like to cite for your additional details? Wikiklaas (talk) 02:09, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
I was hoping that we could expand on the Muppet Theater's history, give details on the different rooms, and mention it's different media appearances. Rtkat3 (talk) 2:32, April 22 2013 (UTC)
That would be very interesting if you have reliable independent sources for it. If you plan to expand the section based on your own observations (merely watching the shows), it would be a waste of time to do this because it would have to be deleted as "original research", the problem that is hampering this section already. Wikiklaas (talk) 23:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Then we'll have to find some sources to help make it into a separate page then. Rtkat3 (talk) 9:58, April 24 2013 (UTC)