Talk:The Satanic Temple
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RfC regarding Disambiguation
Can we try to tackle the fundamental question first, and put everything else on hold?
Can we try something?
First, everyone agrees to take a week off from editing this article. I didn't even look at it before saying this, but whichever version it is, it'll be ok to stay that way for now. The edit warring just complicates and inflames things, and brings people closer to being blocked and/or topic banned (I say this not as a threat, but as an observation based on past experience).
Arguments are repeating themselves and going around in circles, and tangents keep spinning off new things to argue about. It's a lot, and I don't see a great deal of success yet.
Almost everything on this page is either directly or indirectly about basic set of interrelated questions, so let's stick to those basic questions here. Resist the urge to launch tangential arguments in new sections. If you start to post something that doesn't directly respond to the following, please reconsider and/or save it for later.
The issue at hand is whether we should describe TST as a religion, whether we should describe it as a religious organization, whether it is a form of Satanism, the ways in which its members should be described relative to these terms, and the extent to which use of these terms should be qualified (qualified as in e.g. "nontheistic religion" or "religiously oriented activist organization" or "self-described Satanists"...).
This is kinda sorta addressed in the above RfC (the section labeled RfC, not the active formal RfC), but by presenting two specific choices, it limits discussion. It also was complicated by other factors I don't want to rehash here, but I would also say that if you are not already a Wikipedian experienced with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, I would urge you not to jump in for the sake of "voting," as it doesn't actually help and in some cases makes the side you're advocating for look worse.
I'd also urge you to try to limit your posts to this thread to, say, once every 8 hours. If nobody's editing for a week, there's no urgency to respond to every single message, and it will allow other people to perhaps make the same points you were going to make (or add to the argument you were going to respond to).
Obviously nobody is obliged to participate in this, and I have no authority to require anyone to follow my suggestions for doing so, but this just all seems so resolvable (difficult, but resolvable).
Please keep in mind WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:OR. What are the sources we should consider, what do they say, where are the disagreements/inconsistencies between sources, and how do we resolve them without using original research?
- I'm game. If everyone else is as well I'll walk away and promise not to edit anything here until Feb 6th, how's that? Caveat of course is if I get flooded with notices that edits I spent time researching were deleted without discussion then I'm jumping back in. But I agree that a few days off would be good for everyone and once again Rhododendrites that you for your level head and attempt to improve things. I like your idea on the root issue, though I'm having a hard time seeing the solution as it is - and please hear me out - it seems to me that some of the other editors without speculation on motives want it to be all the things you mentioned but only want to treat it like one in any given instance. I just want something consistent, if it's a religion let's treat it like a religion, if it's an organization let's treat it like an organization, but not that it's a religion in this section and an organization in that section. And maybe that's the core issue, because those things are inherently different and come with their own issues and realities - especially in relation to how to discuss members/supporters/etc and I think a big issue here is that many of the statements about and by TST can be contradicted by other statements by and about TST, so we're stuck in this insane tug of war trying to sort out. So here's my weird idea to consider over the next week - Split the article. This is a crud example but in the way that Jews and Judaism is a people and a religion which are not the same, nor mutually exclusive, maybe there's is something to consider here and split TST(Organization) and TST(Religion) or maybe it's TST(Organization) and a new section on [Satanism] about TST as a new sect? I don't know, I just want this all to make sense somehow. Seanbonner (talk) 09:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'm haven't checked on the info regarding the new Missouri lawsuit, which is odd considering I live there, but the documents of that case may be useful regarding these questions if they directly address any possible religious beliefs of the TST. Also agree that determining exactly what should be in the Satanism article or the Left-hand path page or somewhere else. John Carter (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
I forked content about the Baphomet sculpture out to Baphomet (sculpture), and invite page watchers to help improve the standalone article. Thanks! ----Another Believer (Talk) 23:02, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
August 2018 "Civil War"
According to this article  there is somewhat of a "Civil War" (that's what the article is calling it) within TST, with the former head of the largest chapter posting a long resignation letter  accusing the management of a long list of things from sexism to working with nazi-supporters. At the same time the entire LA chapter quit and has rebranded as The Satanic Collective  and apparently every single international chapter has left starting their own and entirely unrelated organization called "Satanic Temple International"  as well as a handful of other individual resignation letters being posted as well. TST responded on their spokesperson's Patreon page and in turn disparaging the people who left. It's not clear if how these new rebranded groups are going to distinguish themselves but a quick look at Satanic Temple International page suggests they are much more interested in rituals than TST may have been. The core complaints seem to be sexist attitudes of the management, lack of attention to issues brought by the chapters to "central ministries", a lawsuit filed by TST against twitter, the lawyer hired by TST for that lawsuit and funds contributed by the chapters and donations being used for things people didn't agree to. As these events likely require significant edits to the page I'd like to ask here how best to proceed with that without sparking an edit/revert war. Thoughts? Seanbonner (talk) 04:21, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
- Portland  and St Louis  have publicly split now as well. This seems like it needs it's own section rather than having most of the "Chapters" section being about Chapters leaving. Seanbonner (talk) 01:41, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Religious Vs. Religion
I am aware of the above RfC on debating how TST should be described. Now that that's settled; I think the lead sentence should be slightly edited. It currently reads "The Satanic Temple is a nontheistic religion and political activist group..." but I think it should be changed to "The Satanic Temple is a nontheistic religious and political activist group..." with the redirect still going to nontheistic religion. This is a minor grammar thing, but I believe that The Satanic Temple is a group, which would stipulate using an adjective, (id est religious)) to modify it rather than the noun religion. I guess the religion might be called Satanic Templisim? If no one objects to this minor edit, I will make it in a week, on September 18th. Cheers, Flipster14191 (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2018 (UTC)