Talk:The Wachowskis

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Anti-Slavonic Racism?[edit]

Why does anyone think that it is necessary to point out the ethnicity of their father as Polish, but that it is enough to give just the family name and sibling realtion for their mother? People named Luckinbill are suppsoedly beyond having ethicity, because they are taken for granted as an absolute? Rather offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 7:34 27 July 2015 (UTC)

The Wachowski Sisters[edit]

Why is there such a nasty transphobic attitude towards this article???

It was fine to have them as The Wachowski BROTHERS, but the word SISTERS is too much to ask for!? WTF!! It's 2016! The world has seen Caitlyn Jenner! The Wachowski Sisters is what their page should be called and all pages that feature their names NEEDS TO HAVE SISTERS! NO MORE HIDING THEIR GENDER YOU TRANSPHOBIC BIGOTS!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Don't be racist, it's "Wachowska Sisters".-- (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
That's not how it works in the U.S. If they haven't changed their surname then it's still Wachowski. There are plenty of American women of Eastern European descent who have the male version of their surname. 2602:306:B89C:A000:A9FC:17A7:554B:5BD4 (talk) 05:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Assuming this comment is earnest, have they ever actually been credited anywhere as the Wachowski Sisters? They were previously listed as the Wachowski Brothers not because they were brothers named Wachowski, but because that was the joint name they directed under.

2602:306:B89C:A000:A9FC:17A7:554B:5BD4 (talk) 05:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[edit]

Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 06:32, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Retroactive changes made to this article[edit]

The article, and alot of pages related to it (such as The Matrix) were heavily changed retroactively to reflect the name change of both persons and the duo stage name. Such changes are should not be carried out here, as we reflect changes from the point where they were changed. This is not usually problematic, but misleading. E.g. "Lilly has been married to Alisa Blasingame since 1991." would point out a homosexual marriage, which was prohibited under U.S. law at the time, and is thus factually wrong. "Lilly Wachowski also came out as a transgender woman," is confusing for a lot of readers, as the most will not see a reason why someone named Lilly would not have been ackknowledged as woman before-hand, and also factually wrong, as no person named Lilly Wachowski ever came out a transgender woman, but rather a man named Andy (/Andrew), who came out so and changed his name to Lilly afterwards. Since this is not quite my WikiProject I will not spend all night fixing the occurencies, but plead for members of this Wproj to take action. Thank you. Lordtobi () 18:31, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

@Lordtobi: Please see MOS:GENDERID and WP:BIRTHNAME. The names and pronouns have been extensively discussed and changes need consensus. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Given MOS:GENDERID especially, I concur with EvergreenFir. While we should try to avoid confusing constructions, we should use the latest expressed gender, and I believe that should carry over to naming--especially given the reference to MOS:IDENTITY at WP:BIRTHNAME. Thank you. Dumuzid (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Neither of the guidelines referenced above has a direct involvement in this discussion. GENDERID (+ IDENTITY) only discusses the usage of gender-specific terms (such as pronouns), reflective of the time the GID came to be. BIRTHNAME only discussed the notability of the inclusion of a person's full [birth] name if notable. Neither of those discusses the usage of a changed name in different times, as regardless of the gender ID, someone's name can change for various reasons. I'm not sure if there is a specific guideline against retroactive changes, but currently there is also none for it. What currently goes down on the article is an edit war, as the discussion is not over. Lordtobi () 21:32, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't share your "confusion" about those two examples, particular the latter. She came out as a woman is far less confusing than the (nonsensical) he came out as a woman would be. WP guidelines clearly warn against illogical-sounding statements such as that. The construction of the statement presupposes that she was already a woman when she made the announcement. Besides, this isn't even (primarily) a gender-identity issue: as a general rule, we use the same name for a person throughout their article, regardless of when they changed it. For example John Wayne refers to him as "Wayne" even in the section about his childhood, when everyone knew him as "Marion Morrison". And on top of that, since MOS:GENDERID clearly says that our use of pronouns should be consistent throughout the article, so it only makes sense that our use of given names would strive to be consistent as well: if we're using female pronouns for her at some point in the article, we should also use her female name in that section. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 23:08, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment On another note I have restored the long-standing "sibling" terminology to the article, following recent attempts to change it to "sisters". MOS:GENDERID addresses gender identity, not biological relationships. There is no policy, guideline or consensus at this article to apply gender idnetity to biological relationships. They are still biologically related as brothers, even though they both identify as women. GENDERID touches on this slightly, suggesting gender-neutral language in such instances i.e. "parent of" instead of "father of" and so on. In the spirit of GENDERID and factual accuracy, it is not necessary to underline their relationship using gender specific language as "siblings" works perfectly well in the context it is used. Betty Logan (talk) 17:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't know what "biologically related as brothers" is supposed to be mean, but I agree that the gender-neutral "siblings" is preferable, as it's accurate regardless of timeframe/identity/perception/etc. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2017 (UTC)