Talk:Thomas Gardner (planter)

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Status (post 10/22/2015)[edit]

Pending edits[edit]

The text has been sourced, as referenced. Some later work brings in additional material. The intent is to start a separate section with this. For instance, the discussions about the number of wives. Too, there is more on origins: Sherborne, Dorset.jmswtlk (talk) 17:57, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: Noticed on first pass-thru: self published genealogies (however old) (re.: Higginson Genealogical Books), family-name forums (or any "forum"), blogs and "blogspots", are not considered Reliable sources. Anything published or on-line without editorial oversight is not considered reliable, per reliable sourcing guidelines. GenQuest "Talk to Me" 14:48, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Tag article with unreliable sources; start the process of replacing the Higginson and other problematic references; update stale pointers. jmswtlk (talk) 18:19, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Status (prior to 10/22/2015)[edit]

See Improvements, etc. (#7, #9, #10, #11, #12), below. As far as I am concerned, the tags are incorrect and can be removed. I leave them there for noise, perhaps, but, also, to show how Wikipedia works. The tags have little to do with the content as of now. This weekend, someone made an unattributed change. Here is a discussion about the matter. jmswtlk (talk) 10:13, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Removed the multiple issue tag. See below for the edits done in the past year. Controversial material removed. The list of descendants has been checked. Now, we're to normal edit mode, one would think. jmswtlk (talk) 13:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Beginnings[edit]

This is a start, only, from one well-documented viewpoint. Yet, it's not NOR. What is clear is the progressive order: Gardner->Conant->Endicott->Winthrop->... This page will describe Gardner who has been overlooked to date, except for the Cape Ann page.

The motivation? From a certain perspective, Essex County (and Plymouth) plays an important role in the development of New England, though there were several, simultaneous, expansions at the same time (each with their own lessons) and the American reality.

Given the messes of the times (ca 2010) and the general lack of knowledge about things historic, technology can play a role in spreading the news about our history. Wiki has shown its necessity (perhaps, twitter could be used to send out tidbits).

Looking forward to more sources being brought in, and the controversies covered. jmswtlk (talk) 14:19, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Descendants[edit]

Again, starting to collect these through web searches and books. Slow process. jmswtlk (talk) 02:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The descendants list has grown. It's a sampling. For the most part, tried to link to something that is already written up or that exemplifies an era. For each descendant, there are sources which I am marking, except for the obvious since another page already establishes the relationship. One group is a catch-all until I can organize them better (Aside, still using text editing, perhaps it's time to try the improved editor). jmswtlk (talk) 00:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Just to be complete, looking for descendants via Seeth (Conant) and Miriam (Hill). Found that there are some; need to identify and verify. jmswtlk (talk) 02:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Economic considerations[edit]

Essentially, Thomas got his position through his relationship with John White, his uncle. And, he lost the leadership position to someone who was, perhaps, more glib. His uncle sold him out. Was Conant any more effective? The Company then brought in the hammer (military disciplinarian) and the dreamer (spent more time on his journal, perhaps, than actually doing anything). Of course, the latter two were helped by a large influx.

Now, the record shows that Thomas, and the others, were effective. The large influx used the structure laid down by efforts of the old planters.

In fact, documenting the impact of this group, and identifying the influence of their offspring, is imperative to any historical perspective. That it is not NOR is due the wealth of material that will be referenced. It's voluminous, indeed. jmswtlk (talk) 00:07, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I want to suggest adding the fact that Thomas Gardner was a tavernkeeper to his list of occupations. See the chapter, "Thomas Gardner, Salem, MA, 1592 - 1674," in Colonial Tavernkeepers: Qualifying Ancestors of Flagon and Trencher Members (vol. 13; Flagon and Trencher, 2013); cf. http://www.flagonandtrencher.org/fandt_tocs.html. Also see Frank A. Gardner, Thomas Gardner, Planter (Cape Ann, 1623-1626; Salem, 1626-1674) and Some of His Descendants: Giving Essex County, Massachusetts, and Northern New England Lines to the Eighth Generation and Nantucket Lines through the Fourth Generation (Salem, MA: Essex Institute, 1907), 9: "25th. 9th. mo. 1662, "Mr. Thomas Gardner have liberty graunted him to sell at retaile what strong waters he hath in his hands."§§ In the following year he was given a license to sell "one barrell of strong waters retale."||" Olorin3k (talk) 20:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Interactions with Plymouth[edit]

The folks from the south were there around 1623 (or before) with a Patent mainly to fish. They had built structures for salting and such, of a termporary nature. What interactions there were with the Dorchester group has been discussed and needs more sources. That folks had conflicting Patents is understandable given the state of communications, etc. jmswtlk (talk) 01:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Higginson[edit]

It is interesting to see what Francis (the minister) wanted in his negotiations to come to Essex County. For one, he wanted a helper to provide him fish, fowl, and other game. Okay. Fair enough. Then, he wanted two servants to run the household.

Samuel (Skelton) wasn't so demanding.

The interest? Compare Francis' view to Thomas'. Now, given the way things are today, who would fit in? The talker or the doer? Oh, do we not see the same issues today? jmswtlk (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Francis' descendant, Thomas Wentworth Higginson, was President of the Old Planters Society, at its inception. As well, his 1900 Address to the Society characterized some of the issues raised in the History and its lessons section. jmswtlk (talk) 13:58, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

External links[edit]

This section will be used to collect links that can support the material or show things of interest. This is not OR as collecting and gleaning are more asynchronous activities than not. jmswtlk (talk) 13:58, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Other Gardners[edit]

Moved this text from the Article's archive (originally posted on 06/16/13):

I suggest you add the information regarding Richard Gardiner (father Sir Thomas Gardiner buried St. Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey, London)(1564 - 1632), and family who arrived in Maryland sometime between 1634 and 1637. Richard received one of the original 20 manorial grants, called "St. Richard's Manor", of 1,000 acres on the Patuxent River, in St. Mary's County, Maryland (mother county of Maryland). This Gardiner family were English Catholic landed gentry. Richard'a great, great uncle was Stephen Gardiner, Lord Chancellor of England, under Mary I.
Richard also was on the Mayflower, as well as a settler at Avalon, Canada. First attempt of Lord Baltimore to establish a proprietary colony.
I am one of his many descendants. Thank you, Carolyn Gardiner, Annapolis, Md.

Richard was already mentioned in the Section as being on the Mayflower (he's on the list of passengers). This page has a running list of Gardner families (with the intent of being complete - albeit, for starters, it had a New England focus). jmswtlk (talk) 19:49, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

For starters, here is what was written by Robert Charles Anderson, of NEHGS, about Richard Gardiner.

Reliable sources[edit]

The sources that might be unreliable would mostly be those created by families (genealogy sites) which we intended to remove as we found better sources. For the most part, the content has been verified as correct; issues of style, permanence, and such seem to be of concern. In general, though, a restructure of the page is pending. jmswtlk (talk) 15:18, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The sources that might be considered unreliable are #13 and #14. I will check all of the others to make sure that they are not stale. Once that review/edit event is done, I'll remove the flag. jmswtlk (talk) 17:19, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The first set is to family pages. Perhaps, they are suspect. So, these are being replaced. The second set is to groups (organizations). They are suspect only if we agree that Wiki is as well. And, Wiki is not suspect (under normal circumstances). So, this set will be split out so that the individual sources are visible (to wit). jmswtlk (talk) 22:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Have reviewed references and removed use of suspect references, hence commented out the unreliable tag. jmswtlk (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Soon, will be starting to switch to using Footnotes and Citations (example). During that exercise, all references will be re-checked. jmswtlk (talk) 19:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

See above comments (under "Pending Edits") re: reliable encyclopedic sourcing. GenQuest "Talk to Me" 14:52, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Footnotes, citations, and references[edit]

Today, started the convert. Will be at it all week. jmswtlk (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Slow going. Pages will be identified when documents are digitized. Otherwise, a footnote will point to the discussion area. jmswtlk (talk) 23:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Removed, as reference (good material, questionable configuration control), Humanities Web which has two different Chapter IIIs: Genseric (the Vandal) and John Fiske). Of course, John Fiske (philosopher) is author. Changed to digital copy at archive.org. All references are being thusly scrutinized. jmswtlk (talk) 00:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Improvement[edit]

Seeing the criticisms, a rewrite might be in order. I will start to attempt this, using my sandbox. Initial sources will be The Great Migration (Anderson, NEHGS) where Thomas has six pages and the books by Frank A. Gardner (for now). jmswtlk (talk) 19:54, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that the ingenuousness and/or the neutrality of the editor adding the tag disputing this article's neutrality is at question. For that editor approaches "drive-by" status by not following policy: "The editor who adds the tag should address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute). Olorin3k (talk) 00:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, was trying for a trinity given the former claims of unreliable sources and of original research. Thanks for the indirect complement [compliment]. jmswtlk (talk) 01:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Due to recent improvements, removed tag for Neutrality and NPOV. That leaves completing citations and verifying the lists. jmswtlk (talk) 12:26, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Goal for early 2015 is to verify the list and citations thereof. Recent changes have made many overall improvements. (President/Researcher, Thomas Gardner Society) jmswtlk (talk) 14:51, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Burial[edit]

Rationale for edit recorded in Thomas Gardner Society, Inc. post (Where is Thomas? III ). jmswtlk (talk) 14:06, 23 October 2015 (UTC)


Removed text[edit]

Other Gardner families[edit]

There were several Gardner families concurrent with Thomas, the planter.[1] Richard Gardiner was passenger on the Mayflower. In 1635, Lion Gardiner arrived in Boston. One of his legacies is Gardiners Island in New York.[2] George Gardiner (settler) was an early settler of Rhode Island.

Thomas Gardner (Roxbury) (c. – 1638) arrived in 1635 and settled in Roxbury. He left a young son, named Thomas, and had the following descendants:

Economic considerations[edit]

Many views have been expressed about the political aspects of the "Old Planters (Massachusetts)" and their experience.[5] That is, Conant is credited with founding Salem and was then followed by Endicott and Winthrop. Also, cited motivations were largely more related to independence (religious, economic,...) for the folks that moved to the new world than not.

Some sources describe that, though succeeding in Cape Ann provided a struggle, Thomas Gardner, and his crew, were successful in maintaining themselves and their families. Conant, essentially, was sent because the old planters were not seen to be successful in London as expected. That is, the capitalists were calling for their profits.[6]

Of course, Conant could not overcome the elements either. So, moving to Naumkeag was a good choice. And, Gardner may have been instrumental in that in many ways. For example, the old planters laid out the framework which supported the later influx of many emigrants from Europe, and elsewhere.[6]

Now, many lessons from that time apply to current situations, and financial messes, and the hope is that future research acknowledges people, like Gardner and his party. Actually, that they were the backbone of the country that ensued, and that they contributed more than did any subsequent puppet of London, is one lesson.

Consider that events of a hundred years later, supported by offspring of Gardner and the old planters and many others, demonstrated the problems with London's views. Gardner and party were just ahead of their time.

Not only was Gardner's party more tolerant and independent, they were of the type that contributes directly in ways that are incalculable (the bone and sinew of the country, noted one historian).[7] Except, seeing how modern views have allowed infrastructural decay (by out-housing our backbone, for example), there may be many other lessons that we can learn from the old planters, and in places other than Massachusetts, to boot.

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference franka was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Gardiner, AB (1896) "NOTES, QUERIES AND REPLIES" American historical register ..." Philadelphia (via google.com)
  3. ^ Coolidge, C. (1926) The Inspiration of the Declaration of Independence (via calvin-coolidge.org)
  4. ^ Roberts, GB #68 Royal Descents, Notable Kin, and Printed Sources: Notable Descendants of Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke, RD (via NEHGS website)
  5. ^ Arrington 1922, p. 21.
  6. ^ a b White, J. (1630) The Planters' Plea via Winthrop Society
  7. ^ Elson, Henry W. [1904] 'History of the United States' The McMillan Company (via usahistory.info)

Baffle gab1978 (talk) 22:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

It's nice that the removed text is visible. Appreciate that. Thanks. (world's oldest Wiki'an - 73+). jmswtlk (talk) 12:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)