Talk:Tomislav of Croatia
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First hand sources
What are some first hand sources about Tomislav? Nothing in D.A.I and nothing in Chronicles of the priest of Duklja as some claim? Can i just ask what evidence there are that what is written in this article is actually historic FACT? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
He was in fact not mentioned in Chronicles of the priest of Duklja. Can i have the quote and pagenumber to where? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 14:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- To settle this issue: Tomislav was apparently not explicitly mentioned in the CotPoD. In the supposed description of his coronation, he is named as Svatopluk/Budimir (depending on the redaction), which may or may not have referred to Tomislav. Moreover, according to Goldstein, CotPoD is a highly unreliable source, and its description of the coronation is largely factually incorrect, distorted, or even fabricated.
- I might update the text to account for the unreliability of CotPoD. The question is how to do it without making the article too polemical (while allowing that it has to be polemical to a degree, because many supposed facts about Tomislav are not fully reliable and/or disputed). GregorB (talk) 16:41, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Latin redaction of the Chronicle explicitly mentions Tomislav, but not in the part about the "coronation":
- "Regnavitque frater eius Thomislavus pro eo, qui fortis extitit viribus, sed non fuit ut frater eius. Regnante Thomislavo Ungarinorum rex nomine Attila promovit exercitum, ut debellaret eum. Rex autem Thomislavus, fortis iuvenis et robustus bellator, plurima bella cum eo commisit et semper eum in fugam convertit. Genuitque Thomislavus rex filios et filias, et XIII anno regni sui mortuus est." (Po njemu vladaše brat njegov Tomislav, koji je bio po prirodi snažan, ali nije bio kao brat mu. Za vladanja Tomislavljeva pokrene vojsku ugarski kralj zvani Atila, da ga savlada. Ali kralj Tomislav, hrabar mladić i snažan junak, zametne s njim mnoge vojne i uvijek ga natjera u bijeg. I rodi Tomislav sinove i kćeri i u trinaestoj godini svoga vladanja umre.)
- The Chronicle is not reliable, but some of it's content could be useful. In the article, the Chronicle is mentioned in the "Coronation and Croatian Kingdom" section about the assumption in older historiography that Svatopluk/Budimir was Tomislav and that his coronation was described there. The other mention is about his wars with the Hungarians, which Goldstein thought was probably correct because there were other sources that mentioned Hungarian raids at the time. Here's what Goldstein wrote in "Hrvatski rani srednji vijek", 286-287:
"U Ijetopisu Popa Dukljanina postoji priča da je za vladavine Tomislava kralj Ugra imenom Atila pokrenuo vojsku da ga svlada. Ali je kralj Tomislav, hrabar mladić i snažan ratnik, vodio s njime mnogo ratova i uvijek ga je natjerao u bijeg. I rodi Tomislav sinove i kćeri, i trinaeste godine svoga kraljevanja umre. lako se gotovo sigurno vijest odnosi na našeg Tomislava, teško se u nju pouzdati, jer se očigledno u neodredivom omjeru u njoj isprepleće povijesna realnost i elementi legende (kao, uostalom, u čitavom tekstu LJPD). Atila je drugo ime za ugarskog vođu i rodonačelnika dinastije Arpadovića - Arpada. Trinaesta godina kraljevanja je najvjerojatnije samo stajaći broj, a ne točan podatak. Ni sintagmu hrabar mladić i snažan ratnik, a pogotovu kada ona prethodi informaciji o uspješno vođenim ratovima, ne treba uzimati suviše ozbiljno. Napokon, tek bi vijest o ratovima u vrijeme Tomislava mogla biti vjerodostojna - mađarski upadi u Hrvatsku mogli su biti najintenzivniji upravo u prvim desetljećima 10. stoljeća, kada je i mađarska opasnost po Evropu bila najveća. No, postoje i podaci koji na ovu pobjedu bacaju i drugačije svjetlo. Mletački kroničar Dandolo spominje mađarske pljačke u vrijeme dužda Ursa II. Badoera (912-932) u Moravskoj i Češkoj, a zatim i njihova pustošenja Hrvatske i Štajerske. S iznimno velikim plijenom vratili su se u Panoniju, zaključuje Dandolo. I već spomenuti anonimni notar kralja Bele III. tvrdi da su oko 900. godine Mađari podložili Rašku ... krenuvši odavle dođoše do mora, te podvrgoše sve (narode) ove domovine gospodstvu Arpada ... zauzevši još grad Split predobiše cijelu Hrvatsku. Očigledno se radi o pretjerivanju, a moguće je da je kroničar madarske uspjehe 12. stoljeća prebacio u početak 10. stoljeća. Međutim, ipak u tim navodima mora biti zrnce istine - najintenzivnije mađarske pljačke padaju upravo u početak 10. stoljeća. Čini se da su Mađari uistinu pokušavali i uspijevali prijeći Dinaride, jer Hrvatska je za Dandola bila, barem u to vrijeme, zemlja u neposrednom zaleđu obale. Ni podatak da su Mađari došli do Splita i pljačkali u njegovoj blizini nije moguće baš posve odbaciti, iako ga sigurno nisu osvojili. Dakle, Tomislavove su se čete vjerojatno od vremena od vremena sukobljavale s mađarskim pljačkašima - neki bi ih put uspjeli poraziti ili potjerati, drugi put ne bi. Stoga ne valja prenaglašavati značenje vijesti o njegovim pobjedama, a ni podcjenjivati one o uspjesima mađarskih pljački: jednostavno, moglo se raditi o višekratnim pokušajima Mađara da nešto opljačkaju. Razlog eventualnog uspjeha ili neuspjeha ovisio je vjerojatno o broju hrvatskih vojnika koji bi ih dočekali, kao i opterećenosti Mađara plijenom, što bi im otežavalo borbu, te o postignutom iznenađenju (zasjeda, itd.)." Tzowu (talk) 19:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for a very useful clarification - my claim about the Chronicle not mentioning Tomislav was obviously off.
- In Goldstein 1985, p. 41, it is said that Tomislav's wins over the Hungarians were not mentioned by anyone in any way, save for the Chronicle. Still, Goldstein concludes - similarly as in the above quote - that "Tomislav did defeat the Hungarians, possibly multiple times". My point about the Chronicle is not that it should be dismissed entirely, but that it should be presented with more nuance - in the same way historians who discuss it do, but preferably without extensive pro and con arguments which are typical for historiography.
- A propos: Goldstein 1985 also notes that Tomislav was a marginal figure in historiography and collective consciousness until as late as the second half of the 19th century, which is fairly remarkable. I might expand the article along these lines. GregorB (talk) 20:37, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- That can go under legacy and Budak and Goldstein are good enough sources for it. I thought that going into detail about what was said about him in the 19th and early 20th centuries would make the article too complicated for an average reader so I sticked to what modern historiography mostly says about Tomislav. For example, the Chronicle talks about victories against "Atila", while the article has "To the north there were often conflicts with the Principality of Hungary", as Goldstein explained, among others. Tzowu (talk) 08:04, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sticking to modern views is a good decision. Indeed, an average reader is not going to be interested in what historians said a century ago. However, Tomislav being virtually unknown 150 or so years ago is interesting and was surprising to me - I learned about it only days ago, while going through the exposition in Goldstein 1985 (of which a brief overview in the Legacy section might do). GregorB (talk) 09:40, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Goldstein and Budak on the border issues
Regarding this edit: it is fairly clear that Budak did not address the border issues at least partially because the two share views on the Drava-Sava area being a wider border area outside anyone's firm rule. This is why I feel that the fact he criticized Goldstein's book is irrelevant in this context. Budak's view on Bosnia remains open; I'll take a closer look at his book. GregorB (talk) 12:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
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