Talk:Truthiness

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Featured articleTruthiness is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 17, 2007.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 18, 2005Candidate for speedy deletionDeleted
October 26, 2005Articles for deletionDeleted
November 5, 2005Candidate for speedy deletionDeleted
November 7, 2005Candidate for speedy deletionDeleted
November 11, 2005Candidate for speedy deletionDeleted
January 31, 2006Good article nomineeListed
March 10, 2006Articles for deletionKept
June 22, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
January 11, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
April 17, 2007Articles for deletionKept
September 29, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
October 17, 2007Today's featured articleMain Page
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 13, 2006.
Current status: Featured article
WikiWorld logo.JPG Truthiness was featured in a WikiWorld cartoon:
(click image to the right for full size version.)
Truthiness comic.jpg

Did we forget what this was all about?[edit]

How is this an article without referencing that this word was created to discredit Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SarkamW (talkcontribs) 07:56, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

"Truthy" and "falsy" in programming: pre-Colbert or post-Colbert?[edit]

As a non-American I'm wondering: do these terms actually pre-date Colbert's penning of the gut-truth definition or are they obvious references us foreigners couldn't possibly spot? In programming the adjectives "truthy" and "falsy" refer to values which evaluate to the booleans "true" and "false" (rather than the boolean values themselves). In JavaScript, for example, the numerical value "0" or the empty array "[]" would both be "falsy", other numerical values or non-empty arrays on the other hand would be "truthy". The terms are probably limited to dynamically typed languages, though some statically typed languages seem to allow using non-booleans as booleans (though this may be related to how booleans and boolean comparisons are implemented, so this may be very different). --- 78.35.107.83 (talk) 16:41, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I added a paragraph on this, but it needs a bit of help (eg, with citations). FWIW, here are some relevant links: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/116883/is-truthiness-a-legitimate-programming-term,

http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/713894/Truthy-Vs-Falsy-Values-in-JavaScript RichMorin (talk) 04:45, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Truthiness (as an intensively discussed topic) has a long history in coding, particularly in weakly-typed languages like JavaScript, SQL or Visual Basic. Crockford would be a solid ref for this. Unlike strongly-typed languages (Pascal being one of the first popular ones to have a specific Boolean type) or like C, where programmers counted every bit mentally, JavaScript and especially the varying notions of false / 0 / null / empty / void made a robust abstract model of their interpretation as truthful essential for reliable coding. I doubt the word truthiness is etymologically any older than Colbert, but the concept certainly is. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:44, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Hm -- this paragraph seems to have been cut. Strange. Does anyone know why? I've found uses of "truthy" going back years before Colbert. --winterstein (talk) 12:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Just the regular edit-warring from GliderMaven, who is equally omniscient on all technical topics.
For sources, Niklaus Wirth might be good as an early one, as he had some heated debate with Kernighan and Ritchie over C's fairly free-wheeling use of truthiness for a wide range of values - probably the first time that such behaviour had been codified in a language spec and encouraged as best practice, rather than being an accidental side effect. Pascal of course took a strictly typed approach with an explicit Boolean type.
The concept of "truthiness" has at least 40 years well-documented and sourceable history in computing, with a meaning of, "That which evaluates as true, no matter its actual value or representation." The specific word used here probably dates from Colbert. I'm in the UK, I've heard the term in use since around 2006, but still don't know what a Colbert is.
For a recent use, Crockford's slim JavaScript book (O'Reilly, Butterfly cover) uses the notion and term. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:07, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
None of which has anything at all to do with the topic of the article, which is when a human being believes in something irrespective of facts. The other definition of 'truthiness' is only there because it's been connected to the topic via an on-topic reference saying that the word truthiness already existed, and that was done specifically in context. That doesn't mean you get to list every other definition of truthiness in the article. That's OR, and violates WP:NOT. Even if you reference it, that's not sufficient to some javascript book or whatever; you have to reference it in context.GliderMaven (talk) 19:45, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
In your opinion. However RS use this word, as a derivation post-Colbert, in the context of computer science.
Why are you against truthiness for CompSci appearing here, but you're OK with "Mathiness" being included? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm opposed to off-topic and unreferenced material appearing in any article, and I would hope you would be too, but apparently not. I hadn't noticed mathiness, but that appears indeed to be off-topic, and I have now tagged it. This contrasts with the pseudoword "trustiness", which is linked by the references.GliderMaven (talk) 22:42, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
@GliderMaven please show respect for your fellow editors. You say that CompSci-truthiness" is separate from Colbert-truthiness -- I expect you're probably right there. But CompSci "truthiness" is a notable topic, arguably more notable than Colbert-truthiness. I think having this article handle both uses is the best solution. An alternative would be to have two articles and a disambiguation page -- that feels like overkill to me, but you could make the case. To resolve this, please could you say: Where and how do you think CompSci "truthiness" should be covered? I think if we answer that, we'll fix this issue. Thanks. --winterstein (talk) 16:34, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
You have to find a place to put your edits. I don't know off-hand where it should go. Generally speaking where it's a 'usage' thing it should be in wiktionary, not wikipedia, or covered in a compsci specific article. It should not go in a non compsci article like this.GliderMaven (talk) 17:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Maybe add it to Boolean data type.GliderMaven (talk) 17:23, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Truthiness is the opposite of a strongly typed Boolean type. It is the working principle that a pragma of regarding some definable set of values as "truthy" is workable and reliable, even without a strictly defined type system. A "truthy" value is not necessarily True, and cannot (correctly) be compared to a Boolean True. It may be though, and is, assumed to stand in for one. This has much more in common with Colbert's logic than Boole's. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:04, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
I am understating the case to say that I have considerable difficulty in understanding how anyone could ever seriously think that a reader would expect the programming-related definition of the word 'truthiness' in this article, as opposed to in boolean data type, an article which also covers C-related languages, which have no boolean type per se.GliderMaven (talk) 19:24, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
A page that states, "the effective identity between Booleans and integers is still valid for C programs." is dangerously wrong. People have been killed by that assumption. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
That whole article could be completely and dangerously wrong in the extreme, and it would still be the better place to put programming-related information than putting it in this completely unrelated article.GliderMaven (talk) 19:41, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
I came to this article expecting to find information about truthy/falsey in programming and was surprised to find a long article about Stephen Colbert. Korn (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Crockford refers to "truthy" in an article The Elements of JavaScript Style — Part Two: Idioms from 2005-09-21 ... Sept 21, just under a month before Colbert uses "truthiness", however Crockford does not use "truthiness" itself in that article. Sdp61 (talk) 06:27, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Truthiness in particle physics[edit]

On a similar vein, I could swear we referenced "truthiness" as an alternative to "topness" in my particle physics class from older papers. Might anyone know more? SamuelRiv (talk) 20:39, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Off topic because wikipedia is not a dictionary; what are we going to do, add communism to the red article?GliderMaven (talk) 19:45, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Seriously?[edit]

Why is there an article about a comedian's gag-word that went staler than a week-old donut immediately after a US election that happened years ago? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77Mike77 (talkcontribs) 18:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I concur, this is a very twee article and shouldn't exist independent of Steve Colbert. 84.13.74.154 (talk) 02:28, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Try WP:AFD
The reason it's here is that WP:notability is considered permanent. If it was notable. it remains notable. Also the word continues in use afterwards. In some fields, such as software, the concept pre-dated Colbert but never had a good term for it. Once Colbert provided one, the label stuck and remains very much in use. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

That is an extremely lame defense. 77Mike77 (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I was wondering if this whole article was a fake since I've never ever heard of it and from what I read it sounds totally bonkers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.26.37 (talk) 11:13, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

It was a gag word used by a US TV comic named Colbert, and echoed by his fans for a while. It is no longer used by anyone outside of the Steven Colbert fan club, and how many worldwide English-speakers even know who Colbert is? Certainly not notable despite "references". The US mass media will of course mention one of their own, but that doesn't make it notable.77Mike77 (talk) 18:05, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Please look at the end of the article for references. Jack N. Stock (talk) 11:35, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Introducing "Trumpiness" proves my point irrefutably. This "article" is partisan, regardless of "references"(sic) to card-carrying Democrat "sources"(sic). Wikipedians should be embarrassed by this laughably blatant violation of NPOV. You people are defending this with a straight face? Are you kidding me? 77Mike77 (talk) 20:03, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Truthiness. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

☑Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.


Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:49, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Truthiness. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

☑Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.


Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)