Talk:Tsar

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Georgia[edit]

The following section is deleted, since it is irrelevant: it speaks about Georgian royalty and nobility (and includes a piece of the full Tsar's title). Please find a place for it, like, Nobity or royalty of Georgia or something in category:Georgia (country). `'mikka 21:37, 19 January 2007

Georgia[edit]

After Russia had established its protectorate over the (also Eastern Orthodox) kingdom of Georgia, the Russian Emperor recognised the following styles and titles as of 24th September 1783 (Old Style)

  • for its 'Hereditary Sovereign and Prince' (in fact now a vassal) until the annexation, when he himself added this realm to his full style with the same title of Tsar: The Most Serene Tsar (reign name), by the will of our Lord, Tsar of Kartli, Tsar of Kakheti, Hereditary Prince of Samtzkhé-Saatabago, Ruling Prince of Kazakh, Borchalo, Shamshadilo, Kak, Shaki, and Shirvan, Prince and Lord of Ganja and Erivan, with the style of His Majesty; however these Russian designations were largely ignored in Georgia by the Georgians themselves, who continued to use the ancient styles and titles (varying in time, but here is the latest example): The Mepe-Umaglesi 'Most High King' (reign name), by the will of our Lord, Mepe-Mepeta 'King of Kings' of the Abkhazis, Kartvelians, Ranians, Kakhetians and the Armenians, Shirvanshah and Shahanshah (two Persian titles, royal viz. imperial) and Master of all the East and West.
  • All sons of the Georgian Sovereign, including the Heir, were styled: Tsarevitch 'Prince' (given name) (father's name) Grouzinskii, i.e. Prince of Georgia, with the style of His Highness.
  • All legitimate male descendants of Kings Irakli II and Giorgi XII, in the male line, were styled: Kniaz 'Prince' (given name) (father's name) Grouzinskii, i.e. Prince of Georgia, with the style of His Serene Highness.
  • More remote princes of the blood or descendants in the natural line, also received the title of Kniaz (given name) (father's name) Bagration (the name of the royal dynasty, which has also ruled in Armenia), frequently with a territorial or other designation, e.g. Bagration-Mukhranskii 'Bagration of Mukhrani'.

Russian Tsars vs Russian czars[edit]

Russian Tsars redirects to Tsar.

Russian czars redirects to List of Russian rulers.

I don't know which is the better target - they both have merit - but it seems very wrong that they lead to different places. Any comments? Let's discuss at Talk:Russian Tsars.

Jordan Brown 06:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Absent any comments, I decided that if somebody really wanted generic information on Tsars they wouldn't say "Russian", and so changed Russian Tsars to redirect to List of Russian rulers, matching Russian czars. Jordan Brown 01:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Heir of Norway[edit]

Why Russian Tsar was the "Heir of Norway"? Norway never was Russian territory. Moscvitch 13:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The daughter of Peter the Great married the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp. Their son was Emperor Peter III of Russia, and all later tsars were (presumptively) his agnatic descendants. The dukes of Holstein-Gottorp were cadets of the royal house of Denmark. The Royal House of Denmark ruled Norway until 1814. As such, the Dukes of Holstein-Gottorp held the title of "Heir of Norway" (which, unlike Denmark before the 1650s or so, was a hereditary rather than an elective ones). The tsars continued to use the title. john k 05:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

IT IS CZAR for Russia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ACV777 (talkcontribs) 18:25, 24 March 2007.

Tsar?[edit]

The little Empires that flung from the Serbian Empire - where they ruled by tsars too? --PaxEquilibrium 20:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There were no Empires that slung from Serbia after 1355. Most of the independent rulers had the titles despot or kral (king); no one remained tsar. --Gligan 05:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Gaurav[edit]

Hi This is Gaurav —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.54.243.56 (talk) 11:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Gaurav. How are you? 74.194.22.110 (talk) 05:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Changing Name of Article[edit]

I recommend that the name of this article should be changed from Tsar to Czar. I think we should because it is the more common use of the two different spellings. The Wikipedia spell-check program doesn't even consider it a word. On May 12, 2008, I will change the title, unless I am convinced otherwise. 'edmonton_guy'

Don't even think about doing with without going to WP:RM. It is controversial. Charles 00:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I oppose a change to "czar." Tsar is correct. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 02:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Why exactly is "Tsar" correct? Like I said before, I have most commonly seen it spelt as "Czar". 'edmonton_guy'
I am the one who requested the change. Could somebody else please put the request on the WP:RM page for me? I am not sure how too. 'edmonton_guy'
No, you will have to do it yourself. No one else here wants the title to change so far. Charles 18:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I will no longer be making the change. 'edmonton_guy' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edmonton guy (talkcontribs) 00:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

"general term for a monarch" in certain slavic languages[edit]

Article says "The modern languages of these countries use it as a general term for a monarch." This is certainly not the truth in Serbian. In Serbian, if there is no specific title for a formal ruler (like king, prince, duke or pharaoh), the ruler will be called "car", but it is not general term for a ruler (it's "vladar", from verb "vladati", "to rule"). That way, since we don't know what was the title of the Babylonian ruler, it will be called "car", but Elisabet II will be always "queen" ("kraljica"). No matter of two references for Russian and Bulgarian, I still doubt if this is correct what's written in the article, as it is not correct in Serbian. Saigon from europe (talk) 11:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

  • For Russia, it is wrong too. All the rulers are called in Russian by it's titles (such as "князь" (prince), "император" (emperor) or other). In Russian language, the word "tsar" is used for Russian monarchs from 1547 until 1721 (from crowning John IV as tsar until getting the title of emperor by Peter I), Geogrian rulers until 1801 and Jewish monarchs in Bible. The other meanings of this word are historical (in past, Byzantian emperors and Tatarian khans were known as tsars, but now they are known with their true title; besides, Russian emperors had titles of tsar of Siberia, tsar of Kazan, tsar of Astrakhan and tsar of Poland, but they were used only in edicts and decrees). As for ruleres witghout special titles, the word "правитель" ("pravitel", ruler) is too more relevant. I think that source for Russian in article is too old (about half a cenrury). Deevrod (talk) 13:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I believe that when that sentence was originally written, the phrase "general term" was meant to express something like "default term" or "neutral term" (i.e. precisely what Saigon expressed by saying that "if there is no specific title for a formal ruler, the ruler will be called 'car'"). Certainly the idea wasn't to claim that it is an abstract cover term or a hyperonym, i.e. that "emperor", "sultan" and "pharaoh" are classified under the common label "czars" - of course, that's not true in either of the three languages. Anyway, I think the article is also accurate as it is now, without the sentence.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

America[edit]

what about modern usage in American politics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.125.134.114 (talk) 16:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

You mean Obama's czars?:
  • Energy and environment czar: Carol Browner, Environmental Protection Agency administrator in the Clinton administration
  • Health czar: Nancy-Ann DeParle, former official in the Clinton administration, overseeing healthcare issues
  • Urban affairs czar: Adolfo Carrion Jr., former Bronx Borough president
  • Economic czar: Paul A. Volcker, former Federal Reserve chairman.
  • Regulatory czar: Cass R. Sunstein, Harvard Law School professor
  • Government performance czar: Unfilled since Nancy Killefer resigned after it was revealed she had failed to pay tax obligations for household help[1] --64.85.222.248 (talk) 14:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

"White Greek"[edit]

"In contrast to the Latin word "imperator", the white Greek term basileus had..." I am not familiar with the term "white Greek", and googling does not bring any meaningful results. Is this a typo? 88.114.247.8 (talk) 14:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

It was changed from "Byzantine" to "white" on 14 April by an IP editor without a stated reason. I reverted it. —JAOTC 14:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Derivation[edit]

Tsar: Hebrew word Sar (female: Sarah) means leader or ruler. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.30.10 (talk) 20:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism[edit]

At least a half-dozen paragraphs of the "English and American usage" section of the current article is directly plagiarized from the Slate article that it cites. This whole section needs to be rewritten. 129.74.123.12 (talk) 19:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Started rewrite based on facts in the cited articles - please assist in the rewrite. Thanks.Jnkish (talk) 11:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

If you want to write something that's not a copyright violation based on the Slate article, feel free to do that. But what was up there was still a copyvio, and needs to be removed. john k (talk) 22:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Split-out article created for U.S. political term[edit]

I've created Czar (U.S. political term) as a separate article, because that meaning of "czar" can be developed into an extensive, somewhat controversial history which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this article. I've restored what used to be here for a long time, the "Metaphorical uses" section, which gives a brief treatment of such uses including the U.S. political one, and gives a "seealso" note to the new article. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Peter the Great or Ivan the Terrible[edit]

Peter the Great is more known as the first Russian emperor rather than as last tsar. Therefore it will be more logical to place a portrait of Ivan the Terrible in the article, as this person associates in Russia with a title of the tsar. --Heller2007 (talk) 21:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Czar vs Tsar[edit]

Is there a reason why the article is Tsar and not Czar, I couldn't find an explanation in the talk archives. I was always taught to spell it Czar because it derives from Caesar, which isn't spelled Tsaesar. Hot Stop (talk) 17:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Both forms have been common (and the political nickname is established as czar); but Ц is normally transliterated ts, as in Polevetsian. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Tsar is certainly the modern spelling in UK. I reagrd czar as a long-obsolete spelling. Yes, it is derived from Caesar, but probably not direct from Latin by through Greek (of Constantinople) and the Old Russian translation of the Bible. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
"Czar" is largely an American spelling. It might not have always been that way, but in both the UK and Australia, the spelling tsar is far more common these days. When I studied modern history in high school (in Sydney, Australia, in the mid-to-late 1990s), it was Tsar, and "czar" was unheard of. I'm led to believe though, that in academic contexts even in the US "tsar" is preferred, the difference being that the popular spelling follows the academic one in the UK and Australia, but seems to be lagging in the US - possibly because metaphorical uses of the word have always been more common in the US, so US English has proven more resistant to the scholarly evolution in spelling. ZackMartin (talk) 02:46, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
'Scholarly evolution?' In context, it seems that you are implying that evolution is always an improvement. I don't necessarily disagree with you on this particular issue, but it is important to remember that the most vital component in any form of is the presence of variation. Event Nexus (talk) 20:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Seems obvious to me that a spelling as common as czar should be in the lead, not ignored by English Wikipedia as if it was not as common as it is in English literature. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Chronology[edit]

How do we know that "tsar" was in fact a pronounced word, and not a writing fillet until the 17th century, similar to "gosudar" from "gospodar". --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 20:40, 14 August 2016 (UTC)