Talk:Turn! Turn! Turn! (album)
Denying that something isn't an NPOV violation doesn't resolve the problem, and absolute statements regarding the relative merits of artistic works are self-evident NPOV violation. Unsourced, undocumented statements regarding critical reception which mirror such statements are just NPOV violations in flimsy disguise. Monicasdude 22:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:TurnTurnTurnCover.jpg
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I'm thinking that maybe the song should be at Turn! Turn! Turn! (song) whilst the album should be at the mainspace of "Turn! Turn! Turn!. Though I think this is a good idea, I'm not entirely familiar with the material - which is more famous? The song or the album? Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 03:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- The song is much more famous, though they are both famous enough to warrant the ...Turn! (song) and ...Turn! (album) scenario I should think. Cbben (talk) 16:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
"He Was A Friend Of Mine"
The traditional song of the same name did not concern the Kennedy assassination. I believe McGuinn took writing credit for this one. As it stands now we have traditional for this album and the two box sets, and traditional with additional lyrics by McGuinn for Live At The Fillmore 1969. How do we get to the true credit? It would seem McGuinn should at least get the additional lyrics credit if not a full credit. Cbben (talk) 16:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, only some of the lyrics were changed by McGuinn and this still comes under the Trad. Arr. designation because changing lyrics is often part and parcel of a particular artist's arrangement. It's a very common occurrence in the oral tradition of Folk and Blues songs and has been happening for as long as recording technology has existed and obviously, for a lot longer than that in reality. Blues men often used to pinch songs that were popular within their communities and re-arrange them to make them their own and this would often include lyric changes.
- A good example is “Walkin’ Blues” by Son House, which has been covered by many blues artists over the years, with each putting their own spin on it and taking a writing credit for the whole song. In fact the song is only originally attributed to Son House because he was the first artist to recorded it in the early 20th Century. The song had more than likely been around for a long time even when he got a hold of it.
- For another contemporary 1960s example, look at Dylan's arrangements of "Corrina, Corrina" and "Honey, Just Allow Me One More Chance" on The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan, those both feature lyric alterations but they're still credited as Trad. Arr. Bob Dylan. I think that to say "additional lyrics by McGuinn" is surplus to requirements and not the usual way that arrangements of traditional songs are registered with ASCAP or MCPS/PRS. This type of lyric change happens almost every time a traditional tune is recorded, to a lesser or greater degree. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- I do see your point about the folk process, though strictly speaking Dylan did take co-writing credit for "Honey Just Allow Me One More Chance" (see the Freewheelin' writing credits). As for "He Was A Friend Of Mine," Rogan in Timeless Flight Revisited lists the copyright, by McGuinn on December 30 1965, as "He Was A Friend Of Mine (new words and arrangement)." I think that wording is how we should list the credit on all four releases, as that is how it is copyrighted and no one has, at least in writing (so far as I know), challenged the credit's accuracy, as in the case of "John Riley." Okay just my two cents. Cbben (talk) 00:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Dylan took the writing credit because if you list something as Trad Arr then you are essentially credited as the song writer. As for "He Was A Friend of Mine", I think that listing it as "traditional, arranged Roger McGuinn" is fine because that's what the credit means - that you've altered either words or music or both in your version. If you listen to John Riley by Donovan for instance it has slightly different words to The Byrds version, which in turn probably has slightly different words to the version Roud catalogued. You'll see from the Wikipedia article for the song, that "John Riley" is also known under different song titles. My point being that The Byrds' recording of "John Riley" could just as easily be credited as "new words and arrangement by McGuinn" but that's silly because that's exactly what "traditional, arranged Roger McGuinn" means and it's the standardised way of terming it. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 01:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Okay I have to disagree for this reason: In the cases above there are various versions of folk songs with all different sets of words, multiple verses (of which only a few are selected by the given artist) etc. etc. But in McGuinn's case he actually sat down and wrote new words pertaining to the JFK assassination. I think Donocvan's John Riley, for example, just pulls upon other words that had already been floating around in the universe. He didn't sit down and write some new words. The JFK subject matter was (relatively) current and in cases of strict "folk process" word variations I think it is more a mixing and matching of already written words floating around the folk universe (perfect example being "Fair and Tender Ladies" from Clark & Olson's So Rebelluous A Lover, which I hope you have had the pleasure of hearing); or slight word alterations akin to the telephone game. In the particular case of the Byrds' He Was A Friend Of Mine however I think the copyright wording is right on. So in sum, or again, my contention is that the "folk process" type of alterations are for reasons other than a writer sitting down and consciously writing new verses etc. (which is why Seeger et al took co-writing credit on We Shall Overcome, for example, for writing verses such as the "we are not afraid verse"). And also it seems too against the grain to go against the McGuinn copyright wording of "new words and arrangement".Cbben (talk) 07:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, fair enough. I do disagree because a lot of arrangements of traditional songs do contain new lyrics from the person performing the song and not just random verses that were floating around anyway. An artist writing new words themselves is central to the folk process and ultimately, that's the reason why we get all these different lyrical variations in these old songs. But, you make a good case for this so, I suggest that the credit should be changed to - (traditional, new words and arrangement by Jim McGuinn). I'd be OK with that. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 14:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
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