Talk:Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|On December 2013, it was proposed that this article be moved from Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea to . The result of the debate was Page not moved. (See discussion.)|
- 1 Question
- 2 Article title
- 3 On measuring units
- 4 Categorization
- 5 Something to add
- 6 Contradiction
- 7 explanation necessary
- 8 water pressure
- 9 Supposed Spanish first edition
- 10 Film adaptations
- 11 Tentacled attackers
- 12 Top Importance?
- 13 Another piece of trivia
- 14 New page on Arronax?
- 15 Assumptions
- 16 Is the "title" section really necessary?
- 17 Double Reference
- 18 Hugo Omitted
- 19 F. P. Walter editions
- 20 Nyctalope Anachronism
- 21 Plot?
- 22 Name "Nautilus"
- 23 Requested move
- 24 Audio Versions
- 25 Sailors' Lingua Franca instead of a specially constructed language
Is this novel public domain?
- Translations older than 1923 are PD. There is also a more recent translation on Project Gutenburg but I am not sure of the PD status of it, but it's certainly free to read. -- Stbalbach 12:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Where should this go?
Other (please specify):
- The 1954 film is "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea". Amazon shows book editions variously with "20,000" and "Twenty thousand" (and a couple with "20000") but almost always singular "sea". I think I prefer a spelled-out title... maybe. Of course, the pedant I am, I'd prefer Vingt mille lieues sous les mers... --Brion
Well, we put the first Harry Potter book under its real (i.e., UK title) "philosopher's stone" vs. "sorcerer's stone". But for Verne's classic sub story, which surely served as inspiration for The Hunt for Red October I'd like to see something that does it justice. And there are too many redirect pages.
I vote for either "Twenty Thousand" or "20,000", with the alternate title redirecting to the main title. --Ed Poor
- Mais on n'ecrit pas les titres (ou les articles) en français :-). I think that "20,000" and "sea" are preferable, former because it's shorter (I like shorter titles), the latter because it's the common English rendition. --Uri
- Oui oui, mais quel dommage! Le titre original, ce devrait être disponible comme redirect je pense, mais bien sur pas comme le titre de l'article meme. "Sea" is definitely preferred in the English forms. I want to lean towards the full words "Twenty Thousand" on principle, but I think the "20,000" is more likely to crop up. --Brion
- Bien sûr, on va laisser le nom original comme un redirect! Considering the fact that a certain part of the people on the Internet would have difficulty spelling out "twenty thousand", I do prefer the numerical title. As to the general case, I haven't made up my mind (although 1001 Arabian Nights looks better to me than A Thousand an One Arabic Nights. Then of course there's "Alf Layla wa-Layla"/ألف ليلة وليلة). --Uri
- If I may...
it doesn't matter what any of us thinks what looks/sounds/spells/writes better/easier/etc, all that matters is that the translation remains true (as close to as possible) to the original, and of course, we must also take in consideration to adapt the grammar to the language in which the title is translated into (whatever that may be), but at the same time to keep the original meaning.
Jules Verne titled his novel "Vingt Mille Lieues sous les mers", which translates into English as "Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Sea", not "20,000"/"20000", and definitely not "seas" nor "thousands", because English grammar dictates in this context "sea" to be the proper term.
Similarly, this goes for "mille", not "milliers".
Of course, one [myself, for example ;-)] could argue that "beneath" would be a better choice than "under", but that's only my personal opinion, and obviously that wasn't the translator's choice, which leads me to draw the conclusion that professional translators chose "under" as the best alternative for this context.
HTH [hope this helps]
All the best,
MDGx☹☺ 17:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- If I may...
- Responding to MDGx, I agree that what matters is that the translation remains true. Toward this end, "Vingt Mille Lieues sous les mers" translates differently than you have claimed. The phrase "les mers" is a plural. If a singular "sea" was desired, the phrase would be "la mer". So, at the very least, the translation should end with "the Seas". As for the text of "Twenty Thousand" or "20,000" or "20000", they all mean the same thing. It doesn't make any sense to say 'not "20,000"/"20000"'. To stay true to the translation, I would posit that the best translation is "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Seas". I won't quibble with the argument of "beneath" being chosen over "under". That's an acceptable selection. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Has anyone questioned the capitalization of "under" in the English-language version of this novel's title? "Under" seems to function here as a preposition; and prepositions are not capitalized in article titles or book titles. Surely the book's title, and hence this article's title, should be Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Seas? Nihil novi (talk) 03:39, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
On measuring units
"and this distance is a measure of length, not depth" -feet are more usual for depth, I believe- but as it is written this funny to me any measure of length is of course valid in the three dimensions or maybe I've been transferred to some parallel world ?
- There is no way that 20,000 leagues (or even miles) can refer to the *depth* the Nautilus goes to. It refers to the distance the craft travels while submerged. I believe Verne clears this up in the book wherer a character remarks that he has been travellign 20,000 legues while on the vessel. The Land 19:44, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
20,000 leagues does refer to distance travelled and not depth.
- In Project Gutenberg's version, In Chapter 18 of part II Sargasso Sea, paragraph 21, the text reads "By then we had fared nearly 13,000 leagues from our starting point in the Pacific high seas."
- In paragraph 38, the text reads, "We reached a depth of 16,000 meters -- four vertical leagues." As far as I can tell, that is the deepest they go in the book. User: maurelius 23:25, 21 May 2005.
- That's correct. Also, "League" ("Lieues") were oldish measuring units by that time already; I suspect that they are used because they resonate with old childrens tales ("les Bottes de sept Lieues" for instance). A likely traditional depth measure unit would be "brasse" (not foot "pied"). Rama 08:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
In case someone should wonder: I re-entered the category link just to test whether this would make the novel be sorted correctly (i.e. under T) on the category page. And it worked. As for why it didn't the first time around, I have no clue. --Wernher 23:20, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Can someone add a list of his works? Phaust 08:04, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Something to add
It would be good if we could explain some of the obscure 19th century science that's so much a part of the novel.--Pharos 10:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- What do you have in mind ? The science itself does not strike me as that obscure -- it is good old classical physics... but it is true that there are lots of allusions to systems of the time (like the underwater breathing systems, riffles, navigation instruments...) which could be very funny to hunt for :) Rama 10:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
What about some of the marine biology references, like Professor Arronax's claim that sharks must roll over onto their bellies before they can bite, or that Sperm Whales will eat Baleen Whales. Or the explanation that the world is growing colder, and volcanoes growing less active? It would be cool if there could be a discussion of the various scientific points in the book and how accurate they are and where they came from.Annabg 20:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
How much of the physics is plausible at least to a degree. For example the effectiveness and survive-ability of ramming ships with the configuration of the Nautilus, Could the boat survive the impact? What about the exploding cargo?126.96.36.199 (talk) 04:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
The article mentions "The story was written before modern sea-going submarines were a reality..." however near the end it adds, "Verne borrowed the name "Nautilus" from one of the earliest successful submarines, built in 1800 by Robert Fulton".
I realize it says "modern" sea-going submarines but isn't that a given? Since submarines did exist in some form, shouldn't the first sentence be dropped? Verne didn't invent the concept of a submarine.
- I believe the term "sea-going" is relevant. The original nautilus could dive several metres and sink ships, but it was not an ocean-going vessel and could not travel any appreciable distance. The concept of an underwater ship is original.Thebunsk 05:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Fulton's 'Nautilus' could only travel at a depth of twenty feet, submerged for--if I remember correctly--only five hours. Submarines have existed in various forms since the 1600s at least, but the true "sea-going" sort developed in the 1890s. Prior to the improvements then made, most notably the use of electric power rather than hand turned cranks, submarines could not be used for extended periods such as Verne mentions. Not to mention that almost all pre-1890 subs were failures--look at 'Turtle' and 'Hunley'. It's nice that Verne chose one that never sank! 188.8.131.52 22:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Please explain what "purists prefer 20,000 Miles Under the Sea" is supposed to mean here; one would expect the opposite, that purists prefer a title closer to the original:
The word leagues in the English title is a literal translation of lieues, but purists prefer 20,000 Miles Under the Sea whereas twenty thousand lieues marine are 60,000 nautical miles. Using the metric System with SI-units Jules Verne's book would be titled "111,120 km Under the Seas" today.
--Espoo 07:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- In my old non-english edition roughly from the seventies a league is defined to be 2.36 miles, IIRC, and the book's title can be translated as "40,000 miles under the sea". In the book the estimate of about 47,000 miles traveled is given.
Not to blow smoke but the conversion of League's to miles depends on which country's Leagues you are using. ie spain, france ect and what time period you are using...I did at one point track down what the then period French League to mile conversion was but ill have to look to find it again(CaptianNemo (talk) 04:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC))
I have removed this paragraph:
Whether because he was unaware of the phenomenon, or simply chose to exclude it from his narrative, the fictional universe of Verne's novel does not feature water pressure increasing with depth, as it does in the real world . His "Nautilus" has no limitation in the depths it can reach, and in one episode it sets down on the very deepest bottom of the Atlantic, at which point Captain Nemo and Professor Aronnax emerge, wearing diving suits, and walk for miles along the sea bottom to view the ruins of Atlantis. In reality, of course, the overwhelming water pressure at that depth would crush an unprotected human.
based on the following:
- unaware of the phenomenon? from chapter 4: "Precisely, Ned. So at thirty–two feet beneath the surface of the sea, you'll undergo a pressure of 17,568 kilograms; at 320 feet, or ten times greater pressure, it's 175,680 kilograms; at 3,200 feet, or 100 times greater pressure, it's 1,756,800 kilograms; finally, at 32,000 feet, or 1,000 times greater pressure, it's 17,568,000 kilograms; in other words, you'd be squashed as flat as if you'd just been yanked from between the plates of a hydraulic press!" Verne seems quite aware of it.
- The nautilus goes to a depth of 16000m whereby Nemo says"Let's go back up, professor. We mustn't push our luck and expose the Nautilus too long to these pressures." (ch11) This shows the nautilus had limitations.
- They set the nautilus down at 300m for the walk to atlantis and spend their time climbing upwards (ch9); today scuba divers have been able to reach this range from the surface so this can not be a depth that would crush an unprotected human.
This makes me honestly wonder if I have read the same book as the author of this paragraph, or if this is some kind of insidious vandalism?
with that said something should probably be written showing how good of a grasp Verne had on the power of water pressure; although I do not know if his awareness of it is actually anything noteworthy? -- dwxyzq|T 21:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Supposed Spanish first edition
- Yes, is the first edition, for unknown reasons both parties translated by Vincent Guimerá they were published together in 1869 in Spain possibly due to some sort of personal friendship — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 00:45, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
This section contains the statement, "It was the first live-action film of Walt Disney Pictures." This is not correct. As two instances of earlier live-action films, Disney released Treasure Island in 1950 and The Story of Robin Hood and His Merrie Men in 1952 (see IMDb.com or references on this website). The author perhaps meant Disney's first live-action film made in the U.S.? Orzel-W 19:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Every english translation I've found gives the species of the cephalopods that attack the Nautilis as being cuttlefish, and not squid. While reading the original text to check out the recent edit that put "kraken" into the synopsis, I found that the French word used is calmar, or squid, rather than seiche "cuttlefish". Does anyone know anything about the history of this replacement? Also, barring any further knowledge of the translation, which word (squid, keeping with the original sense, or cuttlefish, keeping with the translations) would be in keeping with Wikipedia's style? Ross Hatton 15:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- According to the Miller/Walter translation (1993), Verne used "poulpe," "calmar" (squid) and "kraken," to describe the creatures, and "poulpe" is used as a synonym for octopus ("pieuvre") only in 20th century French, while in Verne's day "poulpe" was a more generic word for any many-armed creature. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
How on earth did this get to be one of sixteen books in the "top-importance novels" category? Dybryd 07:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- where would you rate it then - also bear in mind that few novels have been rated as yet. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 07:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- According to the UNESCO Index Translationum , Verne is the world's third most translated author. "20,000" is arguably his most famous work ("80-Days" is probably more popular but only in English speaking countries). I'm not sure what objective criteria are being used to rank books (sounds like original research territory) but it is an important work. -- Stbalbach 14:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- The main work by the author who is considered to be by many as non less of than the Sci-F genre founder. No doubt it deserves its place on the list. Even if it's not that great from a literary point of view and it hasn't got a main place within literary studies (in fact the whole genre hasn't), its influence is so huge inside and outside literature that it belongs to the list. The fact that there are so few articles on this category is a different issue. Not enough works were rated yet.--Rataube 17:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Another piece of trivia
Oceanopolis, a large sea-life centre on the outskirts of Brest, quotes liberally from "20,000", roughly once per (large) fish-tank. Captain Pedant 20:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
New page on Arronax?
While a web page on Wikipedia exists about Captain Nemo, we need someone to create a page on the other main character, Aronnax. It seems his role is no lesser, though no page exists about him. Michael Viveiros 23:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like that too, since he's the one mainly "narrating".
Thus the title distance is equivalent to 80,000 km (which would be recognizeable to anyone accustomed to the metric system as twice around the Earth)
I'm from a country that uses the metric system and, therefore accustomed to the metric system. I did not know, however, that 80 000km is twice around the Earth. That's a rather bold assumption to make, that anyone who's accustomed to metric, will know that 80 000km is twice around the Earth.--Jayb485 (talk) 20:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Is the "title" section really necessary?
I don't think that there is anyone who actually believes that 20,000 leagues under the sea means that they were that deep. It doesn't require explanation, anyone would know that they would be somewhere in orbit around the other side of the earth. If someone knows what a league is, then they immediately can infer that 20,000 leagues is a measure of distance, not depth. TheOtherSiguy (talk) 15:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- In my experience most people think this. Mostly because they don't have a firm understanding of how long a league is. In fact, SNL also did a hilarious sketch about this common misconception. APL (talk) 21:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me that the reference to Captain Nemo and the Nautilus in the film 'League of Extrodinary Gentlemen' is being redundant in the trivia section, since that is mentioned in the last line of the 'Allusions to actual history, etc., etc.' section. Since trivia is less respected on Wikipedia, I'd remove it from there, but I have yet to make an account, and I fear someone would take a person with a random IP address removing an obviously relevant section as being vandalism. Some mind clearing this up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I just finished reading the 1995 Quality Paperback Book Club edition (20000, Mysterious, and Journey crammed into a value tome), and found some strange translation. Where this stub quotes from the chapter following the poulp fight:
"To convey such sights, one would take the pen of our most famous poet, Victor Hugo, author of The Toilers of the Sea".
The edition I read instead goes with:
"To paint such pictures, one must have the pen of the most illustrious of our poets, the author of The Toilers of the Deep." (260)
If I had to guess, I'm starting to think I wasted my time with the Mercier translation, but where did the quote in the stub come from? There's no attribution. Focusonthechart (talk) 22:28, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
F. P. Walter editions
At the beginning of Chapter 5 (around paragraph seven), my English-translated Aronnax notes, "...and even nyctalopes, whose faculty of seeing in the darkness multiplies their chances a hundredfold, would have had enough to do to gain the prize..." According to Wiki, the Nyctalope was created (at least, the character) in around 1908-1911, though this book was published long before then. I know nyctalopia is a medical condition, but did the concept of low-light-vision appear under the name of 'nyctalope' before 1908, or is this a translation-based anarchronism? J6M8 (talk) 21:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I was surprised this article jumped straight into Themes and Subtext without a Plot Summary. I know the general plot from having seen the Disney movie, but was looking for more details and also to get an idea of differences to the movie. Jeffhoy (talk) 16:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Article states that the first nuclear submarine USS Nautilus was named after Vern's submarine. This is not the case. There were a several U.S. Navy ships named 'Nautilus' prior to the nuclear submarine; some of which predate Vern's novel. One of the predecessors was a submarine. At the time of commissioning USS Nautilis SSN-571 there was a tradition of naming U.S. submarines after sea creatures; and also re-using the names of past submarines. Naming SSN 571 'Nautilus' fulfilled both traditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 03:22, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Sure, names are re-used, but "Nautilus," being the name of the fictional underwater vessel of most renown, is not just another Pike(r). The USS Nautilus in the Second World War was big, but not famous in and of its own accomplishments. The first nuclear submarine deserved a special name. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:00, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
How does a name previously used for surface vessels suddenly become "special" when used for the first nuclear submarine? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 04:33, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
It would be helpful to have a section discussing the various audio versions: ISBN, translator, narrator, publisher, date. Here's a start focused on narrators of unabridged versions. I am unable to discern what translations they are reading from. If you start with the translators, it is hard to find a corresponding audio version.
Amazon reviewer Coolhand has done this for the print version, but now out of date. There are new editions/translations. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000J1WTI6/ref=pdp_new_dp_review READ REVIEW FOR ***CORRECT TRANSLATION*** By coolhand on June 27, 2013 Format: Paperback There are three significant translations of this book, and amazon's lacklustre book-sorting system creates nothing but chaos when searching for the correct format / translation of this book. I'm here to help! [. . .]
Narrators found: 1. David Case and Frederick Davidson, unabridged, 11:18:55 Audible Audio Edition Listening Length: 11 hours and 21 minutes Program Type: Audiobook Version: Unabridged Publisher: Blackstone Audio, Inc. Audible.com Release Date: November 16, 2005 Whispersync for Voice: Ready Language: English ASIN: B000CCUVTQ
2. Norman Dietz, 14.5h, unabridged Recorded Books "Classics Library," Prince Frederick, Maryland, copyright 1998 ISBNs: eAudio 978-1-4498-7014-0 CD 978-1-4193-1162-8 (12 disks) Playaway 978-1-4498-4878-1 Cassette 978-1-5569-0581-0 (10 cassettes)
Audible Audio Edition Listening Length: 14 hours and 20 minutes Program Type: Audiobook Version: Unabridged Publisher: Recorded Books Audible.com Release Date: April 24, 2001 Language: English ASIN: B004QIYBM0
sample of Dietz's voice: https://soundcloud.com/normanhimself/sets
I think this Amazon reviewer is describing Norman Dietz, but not sure. . . An Excellently Spoken Reading, October 1, 2012 By ChristineMM (Houston Texas USA) - See all my reviews (TOP 1000 REVIEWER) This review is from: 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (Audible Audio Edition) My twelve year old son and I enjoyed listening to this unabridged version. The speaker is excellent with an enjoyable voice. The many scientific words and French names are clearly pronounced in their correct form. I felt the voice of the speaker matched what seemed appropriate for the first person storytelling of Professor Aronnax. (You can listen to a sample on the Amazon product page to see how you like the voice of the reader.)
3. Alex Jennings, abridged
4. Michael Pritchard, unabridged good reviews
Publication Date: 07/28/2008 Running Time: 11 hrs 30 min This is shorter than other versions, perhaps indicating a reading of the very poorly done Mercier Lewis translation. Unfortunate. He has a good voice.
Publisher: Tantor Media; MP3 edition (May 1, 2003) Language: English ISBN-10: 1400150701 ISBN-13: 978-1400150700
Publisher: Tantor Media, Inc. Publication date: 1/1/2005 Format: CD Edition description: Library ed.
Review: http://www.audiofilemagazine.com/reviews/read/13726/ "Prichard provides a stalwart narration; his rich, deep voice offers subtle changes for each character." ---School Library Journal
5. James Frain narration gets comments for mispronunciations He does have a nice British accent. sample: http://podbus1.audiofilemagazine.com/clips/66914.mp3 Translation is neither Mercier Lewis, nor Miller & Walter, nor Butcher. Here's a review: http://www.audiofilemagazine.com/reviews/read/66914/
Audio CD (12 disks, 14.5 h) Publisher: Listening Library (Audio); Unabridged edition (August 9, 2011) Language: English ISBN-10: 030774793X ISBN-13: 978-0307747938
Audible Audio Edition Listening Length: 14 hours and 55 minutes Program Type: Audiobook Version: Unabridged Publisher: Listening Library Audible.com Release Date: August 9, 2011 Language: English ASIN: B005GIH7XO
6. Peter Hussman Audible Audio Edition Listening Length: 18 hours and 44 minutes Program Type: Audiobook Version: Unabridged Publisher: Trout Lake Media Audible.com Release Date: January 24, 2013 Language: English ASIN: B00B5MI69O Text: first F. P. Walter translation Review of narrator is so-so: http://www.audible.com.au/pd/Classics/Twenty-Thousand-Leagues-Under-the-Sea-Audiobook/B00FO7ESO8
7. Elizabeth Gray?
Audio CD Publisher: Express Publishing UK Ltd (December 1, 1999) Language: English ISBN-10: 1842163744 ISBN-13: 978-1842163740
Sailors' Lingua Franca instead of a specially constructed language
Somewhere I read that Mediterranean sailors, coming from all sorts of countries, necessarily had to work some means of communication by themselves, and that Verne respected these working men's capacities. There would have been no need for Nemo to come up with a new form of communication obscure to Arronax and his non-Mediterranean outsiders. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)