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Talk:Two-state solution

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Reorganization and cleaning up

I have reorganized the introduction and moved the material there into separate sub-sections. One section, so formed, is the "Diplomatic Process". However, this just repeats most of the "Peace Process" article already created elsewhere. I am replacing this whole section with a summary to that article.

I have also added some background on the 2-state solution and UN 242 in the "History" section. Kingsindian (talk) 08:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Redir

Why does this page Two state solution redirect to a page that describes a One state solution. The two are not the same. The two states solution is not described in One state solution. The matter of a Two state solution is critically important to Jordan [1].

I propose to remove the redirect within a week. Lance6Wins 20:57, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree it's an inappropriate redirect. Why don't you put content into the two state page, though? Noel 12:47, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hi, not having heard from you (or seen the page done), I took a first crack. Feel free to upgrade it, but I managed to get past 'stub' stage already. Noel (talk)

Factual inaccuracy

It was initially conceived under the 1947 UN Partition plan for the division of the British Mandate of Palestine. The Peel Commission report of 1936/7 predates partition and envisions a second partition of the area (the first occurring in 1922). There may be other plans that predate 1936. Lance6Wins 22:31, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So, fix it! Noel (talk) 00:11, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't realize you'd been forbidden to edit in thie subject area. I have fixed the error (it was mine!), and included the Peel plan. (I didn't have time to research earlier plans; I just said "the idea has a long history" and then launch straight into Peel, without calling it the first.) Noel (talk) 02:53, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Number of Arab and Jewish states in Palestine

Since Jordan is at least partially in the region of Palestine, then that makes (arguably) one Arab state already. If West Bank and/or Gaza Strip become another Arab state, that will increase the count to TWO. And if Israel is permitted to retain its sovereignty, that will make a total of three states in Palestine:

  1. Jordan
  2. whatever the PNA morphs into
  3. Israel

Or if "two-state solution" refers only to the Western portion of the region, i.e., Western Palestine, then we can drop Jordan from the list, reducing the count from three to two:

  1. whatever the PNA morphs into
  2. Israel

I keep bringing the meaning of the word "Palestine" because it's important not to lose track of the definitions of Palestine which advocates are using. There are very few objective, laid-back, matter-of-fact historians discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict; almost everyone has taken a side. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 16:20, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

Circumstances Surronding the Birth of the Two-State Solution

This section does not contradict the rest of the article! The Two-state solution was conceived by the US government in response to Saudi pressure. Colin Powell the then Secretary of State was to make public his peace plan for Israel-Palestine on 9/12. Here is the full transcript of the show on BBC 4 Storyville "House of Saud" [2]

These words in particular should be pointed out:

ADEL AL JUBEIR: As soon as the Bush administration came into office, we had discussions with them about the American policy in the region. We were urging the United States to get engaged in the peace process. And when there was an escalation of violence and the president was asked about Sharon's actions, his response was perceived in the region as a signal to Sharon that he could do whatever he wanted.

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: The Israelis will not negotiate under terrorist threats! It's as simple as that. And if the Palestinians are interested in a dialogue, then I strongly urge Mr. Arafat to put 100 percent effort into solving the terrorist activity, into stopping the terrorist activity. And I believe he can do a better job of doing that.

ADEL AL JUBEIR: And at that point, the crown prince sent a very powerful message to the president, "It is obvious that you have decided to support Sharon, irrespective of what the consequences are to American policy or to your interests or to the interests of your friends. You're a sovereign country. You can do whatever you want. We are now in a position where we have to take actions that serve our interests without any regard to how they may affect your interests."

Prince AMR AL FAISAL, Great-Grandson of King Abdul Aziz: And the letter to President Bush merely is a reflection of his character, of his willingness to challenge the United States. "We can't take this anymore. We have had it up to here. Either you be more fair, more equitable in your dealings with the Arab world, or we will simply find a different arrangement than the one we are having with the United States. We can no longer have the same kind of relationship that we have had for the last sixty years."

ADEL AL JUBEIR: And within 24 hours, we had a response from the president to the crown prince, in which the president laid out his vision for the Middle East: two states, shared Jerusalem, just settlement of the refugee issue, in very clear terms. And he said, "But we can only do that if we can stop the violence." The crown prince responded to the president and said, "This is a positive step, and you need to articulate this publicly." And the president agreed to do so two or three days before September 11th.

It certainly does contradict the rest of the article. The latest Saudi plans are just the last of a very long string of plans, which date back many decades, and are not too different from the Fahd and Fez plans of the early 80's. The two-state solution dates goes back more than 60 years, so I am moving and correcting the added section.John Z 17:11, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
The two-state solution is not a Saudi solution although they have one that is similar called the "Arab Peace Initiative" the Two state solution was conceived by the United States government and I by Colin Powell himself and yes it is a modification of previous peace US peace plans. Also I would like to add that the Christian communities of Israel also support this plan as it can resolve the conflict [3]. And the UN supports it with Security Council Resolution 1397 [4]. I would include the link to the petition online page in the main article but it has been blacklisted. The letter can also be used to type our the previous history of peace plans in the middle East.
No, this is simply wrong, as Zero and I have said. The two state solution was not conceived by the US government in 2001/2. Variaptions have been proposed for decades, and explicitly called the or a two state solution. It got explicit support recently from the US (an earlier version supported by the USA was the 1947 plan, and there are earlier less explicit statements in the 25 years preceding 2002. Your latest addition again puts the information out of place. It belongs at the end, the article is organized chronologically. The UN (non-US) support is very old, what is new is explicit US support. John Z 18:43, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with you I beleive it was created by the US. We could go on debating this forever. Supply a link to justify this is not Colin Powells plan. [[User::Courageous|Courageous]] 19:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Courageous, there is plenty of data in the article already that refutes your unique, almost unbelievable assertion that the 2 state solution began with Powell. This is OR, and completely wrong. It had been talked about with that name for decades.You are the one who needs to provide a link saying that it began with Powell; you will not find any. Here is something picked at random from googling that refers to decades of support for the two state solution. [5] John Z 20:24, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
OK thanks John Z I am satisfied with the article now, but to state who concieved the Two-state solution was never my intention I just wanted to point out that this peace plan was delayed by the events of 9/11 and that the peace plan was to be brought to public view on 9/12 and the decision for this was a few days before the attacks. Hence anyone who knew this was to happen and was opposed to the plan could order the hijackers to attack and stop the peace plan. [[User::Courageous|Courageous]] 21:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out and contributing to the article. It seems important and something I had not realized or heard about before. John Z 21:20, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Peel Commission

Someone removed "the Jewish leadership, while not accepting it, wished to use it as a basis for further negotiation" and replaced it with "the Jewish leadership accepted it reluctantly". Ah, no. According to:

  • Aharon Cohen, Israel and the Arab World (Funk and Wagnalls, New York, 1970), pp. 209

the response was:

The Twentieth Zionist Congress (Zurich, August 1937) resolved, by a vote of 299 to 160 ... b) not to accept the partition plan of the Royal commission but to empower the executive to conduct negotiations "to clarify the specific points of the British government's proposal to found a Jewish state in Palestine".

See also our own article on the Peel Commission, which quotes the 20th ZC as saying the partition plan proposed by the Peel Commission is not to be accepted. I don't see how you can characterize this as "accepted" (even if qualified by "reluctantly"). Noel (talk) 21:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

1949 armistice as a border

Territories that Israel captured in the West Bank and Gaza during the Six-Day War would become a new Palestinian state. - says who? See 1949 Armistice Agreements#Cease-fire line vs. permanent border. ←Humus sapiens ну? 07:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Israeli apartheid has a whole section related to this article

Why is a "see also" undue weight? Isn't a "see also" the least weight possible?? If you are so insistant, I will add a whole section to the article explaining the relevancy. -- Kendrick7talk 20:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think a paragraph isn't exactly deserved, but if see also is the only alternative then i guess go ahead with that.--Urthogie 20:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Trash Survey

This is the actual question asked in the survey reported in the intro provided by this link http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewItem&itemID=15253

Some believe that a two state formula is the favored solution for the Arab-Israeli conflict while others believe that historic Palestine cannot be divided and thus the favored solution is a bi-national state on all of Palestine where Palestinians and Israeli enjoy equal representation and rights, which of these solutions do you prefer?

It clearly biases the respondents answer by giving a favored position for the two state option. It's complete trash and not RS. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doright (talkcontribs)

If a source makes your argument, feel free to add it. You're a wikipedia editor, not a media critic.--Urthogie 15:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
So a survey which says "Do you like A or B" is biased in favor of A because it is mentioned first? -- Kendrick7talk 17:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
From what I've read the bias is actually towards B. For example, I love you BUT... [insert B here]--Urthogie 21:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


It's nice to see you both finally sharing some common ground. However, I trust the following two edit summaries will start you on your separate ways again. You're both wrong. Please read edit summary here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binational_solution&diff=125682979&oldid=125533941 and here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Two-state_solution&diff=125677598&oldid=125617914 . Doright 01:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Kendrick7, let's not make this into another edit war. Your edit is still wrong. Perhaps you didn't notice that it was a survey among Palestinians.

Here is one of several possible correct edits that I reccommend:

In 2007, a Jerusalem Media & Communication Center poll reported that when forced to choose between a two-state solution and a bi-national state over one quarter of the Palestinian respondents in the West Bank and Gaza Strip preferred neither, 46% of respondents preferred the two-state over the bi-national solution while 26% preferred the binational over the two-state.

If anyone disagrees, let me know why.Doright 05:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The source says "adults" not "Palestinians". They also were not forced to choose one or the other -- the phrase I think you are looking for is "given a choice between". -- Kendrick7talk 18:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Wrong again, your source, specifically with regard to the survey, says "respondents." And, the source that actually conducted and published the survey, which by the way is titled, "On Palestinian attitudes towards ...," and the claims they make about the survey results refer to the respondents as the "Palestinian public." There is no point in denying this.
Also, you may not know that a questionnaire that only gives the choice between a predetermined and fixed set of responses is called a "Forced-Choice" questionaire, hence the use of the phrase in the article.Doright 19:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Right, for example when someone has to chose A, B, C, or D. But that's not the case here; respondants where given a choice and apparently could respond however they liked. -- Kendrick7talk 20:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I still have not idea where you are getting "Palestinian" from. The poll says "Methodology: Interviews with 1,198 adults in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, conducted from Mar. 19 to Mar. 21, 2007. Margin of error is 3 per cent." -- Kendrick7talk 20:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Quick comment: the lead is not meant to give statistics, but to summarize data in a non-mathematical fashion.--Urthogie 19:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the point of having this in this short article twice. It's really confusing to say this option got a "plurality" when the respondants where asked to choose between two things. -- Kendrick7talk 20:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
They gave more than two answers, and the plurality was towards two-state. Other polls corroborate this, and I can add them if you like. If you want to get unnecessarily in depth, feel free to add a section on polls for a more detailed discussion of individual polls and how they were conducted. Make sure to follow rules on no originalresearch tho.--Urthogie 20:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe there are better polls. When asked to choose between chocolate and vanilla, a plurality chose chocolate just sounds wrong to me. But, I just popped onto this article to do a little clean-up. I think I need a wikibreak from Israel related articles for a while.... -- Kendrick7talk 20:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Israel/Jewish Agency's rejection of the UN partition plan

The common notion is that the J.A. led by Ben-Gurion accepted the UN partition plan, however this is factually incorrect. The J.A. supported the notion of the creation of Israel however they disapproved of the partition plan giving the Palestinians a state. This important fact should be highlighted in this article as well as others related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Ben-Gurion is also quoted saying that Israel cannot accept anything less than all of Palestine.

Israel's actions of today also support their initial reactions to the partition plan including the ever increasing area of occupied land and the subsequent and illegal settlements on the occupied land.

I just noticed this unsigned comment from about a year ago. I am leaving it here -- unlike the section below it, which I am removing because it deals entirely with the subject and not at all with the article -- because parts of this comment do deal (if only peripherally) with the article. If the writer is still around, I would ask: Do you happen to have a source for any of this. 6SJ7 (talk) 02:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Reorg

Can we get the material reorged around topics or timeline?

For topics we could start with the current "Western" policy, then the history of the area, followed by the various issues like borders (no possible border line is acceptable), Right of return (an ethnically cleansed state with no right of return? Didn't Europe have some sort of problem like this in the 1930s, 1990s, etc.?), security (neither side trusts the other so both will remain insecure), outside problems (because of all of the above, others will use these issues to deflect problems in their own states) then move on to the lack of alternatives such as permanent occupation (which isn't acceptable to anybody), genocide (it's never a final solution), single state (if they can't live side by side they surely can't live together) and annexation by third parties (really it's the only times the place has been at peace, but who can both sides trust today?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hcobb (talkcontribs) 19:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I think there are these issues: partition or two-state proposals that were made or taken seriously and usually rejected by one or both parties; identification of periods when such a solution was considered or rejected; negotiations based around a two-state solution; and issues relating to the practical aspects of the solution. Fred Talk 13:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Strategic concerns and defensibility of borders

A topographical map shows that any Palestinian state in the West Bank would contain the heights commanding Israel's main population and economic zone. Pictures taken from the mountain ridge show that Ben Gurion Airport and Tel Aviv are visible with the naked eye from the mountains, and in particular, that they would be be within the range of even primitive rockets and artillery. If a Palestinian state were established in the West Bank with borders in the pre-1967 configuration, Shimon Peres described it as "liable to be an arrow-head directed at the very heart of Israel with all the force of the Arab world behind it." Moreover, declassified United States documents give the strategic recommendations by the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff for Israel to redraw its borders within territories captured in 1967 in order to maintain defensible borders. "From a strictly military point of view, Israel would require the retention of some captured Arab territory in order to provide militarily defensible borders. Determination of territory to be retained should be based on accepted tactical principles such as control of commanding terrain, use of natural obstacles, elimination of enemy-held salients, and provision of in-depth defense for important facilities and installations." In the document, the Joint Chiefs recommend that Israel annex all but the northeastern West Bank. [1] This objection should be covered in the article, at the very least, as a justification for Israel's security demands (control over strategic points in the mountains and in the high points overlooking the Jordan Valley as well as a fully demilitarized Palestinian state that is unable to form alliances with countries that do not recognize the state of Israel's right to exist). Without those guarantees, a two-state solution would be suicidal, and even the presence of a substantial population of Palestinian irreconcilables could just lead to a reoccupation of the West Bank if the Palestinian Authority were unable to control it. 174.44.174.192 (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

And Palestine's security demands would entail what, annexing parts of Israel, a fully demilitarized Israeli state unable to form alliances with countries that do not recognize the state of Palestine's right to exist? We're not here to further ridiculous arguments. Sepsis II (talk) 17:04, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Palestine is not surrounded by hostile countries that have committed repeated aggressions against it, and moreover, Israel has not served as a base for international terrorists who have stated as their goal the destruction of the state. Further, since Israel is the country that controls the territory, we are talking about concessions by Israel in terms of military position. No country is obligated to undertake actions that would threaten its existence (self defense is an inherent right), so any military concession by Israel would have to be credibly met by a situation guaranteeing its security. That is, Israel is not bound by any obligation to the Palestinians to give them a sovereign state at all, and it will rationally not recognize such a state if it leads to a situation in which it is left in a worse security position than it had been previously. Since the Palestinians do not control the territory, I do not see how they can demand that Israel demilitarize or even leave. The point of negotiations is to achieve a result that improves the security and ends the bloodshed for both parties. Without Israel's consent in negotiations, the Palestinians cab either wait for an international intervention (not going to happen), or they can try armed 'resistance' (terrorism) again (a war that they will lose again). So ultimately, if the Palestinians refuse to take steps that Israel deems necessary for its survival, they will not have a state (and might even lose the limited degree of self-government that they already have). You can argue that the Palestinians are entitled to self determination, but ultimately, Israel has a veto over the borders of any future Palestinian state beyond (de facto, and de jure by the Oslo accords). The objections to a two state settlement that I raised are the objections from the right to a two state solution on the Israeli side. No similar argument applies for the argument from the right on the Palestinian side because it has no power to defy Israel or exercise forceful control of any areas of Israel. So don't be deliberately thick.70.192.64.90 (talk) 18:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.192.73.104 (talk)
The source for this objection is Martin Sherman, an Israeli political scientist and also JCPA, a think tank run by Israeli diplomat Dore Gold. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.192.70.195 (talk) 22:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ www.acpr.org.il/publications/books/33-Zero-editorial.pdf‎

Note

Notice that in Israel the solution is called The Two states for two nations solution. The "Two nations" subject is very important for the Israelis, because it contains a recognition of the Jewish state by the palestinians (which they never comitted or agreed to declare).

Changes by Shootsrubberbands

There are several problems with Shootsrubberbands' edits, including POV original research ("Barak's map illustrating war tactics of surround, divide, occupy, and discontiguity"), content allegedly supported by unreliable sources (kingjamesbibleonline, electricitymachine), personal opinions ("we can learn a lot about what NOT to do when we study the 2000 Camp David Summit Barak's map"), and off-topic articles listed in the "See also" section (with wrong titles such as "Palestinian concentration camps").--Zeremony (talk) 02:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism-Edit-Warring by Zeremony

My input is factual, encyclopedic and well resourced by reliable sources. Zeremony is trumping up false claims, if Israel uses the Holy Bible to make historical document claims to disputed land, then others might use the same. Zeremony, lol we CAN learn a lot about what not to do in learning from barak's map, if you haven't thrown it into the delete bin,'In critique[1] and After-action review (analysis) we can learn a lot about what NOT to do when we study the 2000 Camp David Summit Barak's map.' i have no articles in the See Also section at the moment, but when i did before the articles were perfectly contextual and make for interesting reading. You are in the wrong Zeremony please quit making edit war and vandalising due to your own personal bias, sorry i wrote something on your talk page, never having done this before. Regardless though you are in the wrong Zeremony. This conversation should not go on with the good info/input off the page. If you would like to collaborate - then re-write the sentence you are objecting to and i will consider putting it in the page just go ahead and put it in the page, no big deal. I do not intend to use the See Also section because vandals keep deleting the list of spot-on on-topic contextual entries i put there, such as Quartet on the Middle East. i have never used one of these "page talk" pages before, i did not realize i was supposed to write the signature Shootsrubberbands (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shootsrubberbands (talkcontribs) 18:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

What???? You haven't answered any of the objections I raised above. If you don't understand plain English, didn't read (or don't care) the rules of this encyclopedia, or don't possess the basic level of WP:competence that is required to discuss and contribute to an article, don't even bother to edit in Wikipedia. Probably it's not the place for you. If you want people to know your personal opinion about Barak's proposal and other related issues, I suggest you to make a blog and leave us alone.--Zeremony (talk) 02:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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  1. ^ Barak Corrected PDF