Talk:U.S. state

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List format[edit]

The list of states at § States of the United States has been presented in two formats, as a table or as a list. Here are what I see as the advantages and disadvantages

  • Table: Can be sorted in two ways
  • List: Multi-column takes up less vertical real estate

Personally, I am a strong supporter of interactivity and so I tend to favor sortable tables. If we opt for a non-sortable format, then I don't see the reason for including the dates in the table - a simple hat note can refer the readers to List of U.S. states by date of admission to the Union. But if we're going to include the date of admission, then IMO the table ought to be sortable. YBG (talk) 02:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree completely. Station1 (talk) 02:58, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
However, my understanding of WP:BRD is the article should be returned to prior state until a consensus is reached. So, despite the fact that I prefer the sortable form, I am reverting it back to the form it appears to have had for a long time. I think it should remain that way until a broader consensus is reached. I don't think me and one other editor is enough to justify retaining a change that has been disputed. YBG (talk) 03:08, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that's exactly correct. That would apply if the same editor who created the table and then had it reverted tried to put it back, but not when two or three unrelated editors favor something one editor opposes. But in any case, no harm in leaving it for now. Station1 (talk) 03:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
There's already a very large table at List of states and territories of the United States. That list was split out of this article several years ago. To be honest, having any list of the states here is redundant already, but if we need to have them, a straight list is probably best. - BilCat (talkcontribs 03:27, November 17, 2016 (UTC)
Was that table split out just because of its size? If so, why not bring it back and just collapse it? It seems useful and relevant to this article. Station1 (talk) 05:28, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Partly because of size, yes, by also to give this article room to grow itself, which it has. There used to be a collapsible list and map, as shown here, but another user replaced it with the current list without discussion, so I don't know what that user's issue with it was. I'd be fine with going back to that collapsible list, with or without the interactive map. - BilCat (talk) 05:46, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I like the interactive map a lot. I would put it back along with a collapsed version of the table from List of states and territories of the United States. Most of the too-long intro to that "list" article is redundant and should probably be merged into this article. Station1 (talk) 06:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Collapsing a table does not decrease the page size and the amount of time it takes to load. But even it it wouldn't cause the page size to approach the limits, I think it would be better to have the list in a separate article. Should have a prominent hatnote in this article pointing to that list, though. YBG (talk) 06:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I do like the clickable map. @Drdpw:, care to weigh in on this discussion? YBG (talk) 06:23, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but can't' till later today. Drdpw (talk) 13:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I wasn't referring so much to byte size as to your very legit point that the single-column sortable list takes up more "vertical real estate". Collapsing a list, of whatever type, negates that objection. Station1 (talk) 07:07, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Last spring, while adding content to this article I removed the interactive map from the "States" section. I did so because it was a large, page dominating map, and it's only unique contribution to the article was to direct readers away from it (as opposed to it being a clickable map that showed information on each state w/o taking readers from the article). So, I replaced the map and brought the hidden table out from hiding. For these reasons, I would not like to see that map restored to the article. However, I'd have no problem with restoring the Template:US statehood dates to the section, thus putting the state list "back into hiding", and placing the current map, which shows state names and capitals, just below it.
Also, on a related note, in addition to the states & territories list mentioned by BilCat up thread, there's also a table with the 50 states alone at List of U.S. states by date of admission to the Union. Drdpw (talk) 00:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I started out wanting the sortable table, but I've become convinced otherwise. I have modified {{US statehood dates}} so that it now includes two lists, one sorted alphabetically and one sorted chronologically. As a bonus, the lists fit in five columns on my wide monitor; narrower monitors will use fewer columns. I propose that this be transcluded in the section with the current map below it, as suggested by Drdpw. YBG (talk) 09:24, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

It seems like that template might fit better at the top of the Admission to the Union section. At the basic 'list the states' level, why are date of admission and flag the only data points? I think people might be more likely looking for population and area first, maybe even state capital. As to the map, I'm all for smaller and fewer images, but maps are an exception. The state capitals and smaller state names are unreadable on my average monitor. The larger states are barely readable. Station1 (talk) 16:58, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the food for thought Station1. I've gone ahead and made some changes to the section based on what you, YBG, BilCat, and I have discussed thus far. I removed the statehood dates from the list of states, as that information really doesn't need to be in this section (unless other information about the states were included beyond date of statehood in an expanded table format). BTW, after considering what you stated about the {{US statehood dates}} template, I don't think that it should be put back into this section. Also, after considering how difficult it in fact is to read the state & state capital names on the map that's been in place since March (even when made larger) I replaced it with the map at the top of the List of states and territories of the United States page (which is a non-clickable version of the map that used to be on this page). Additionally, to address your comment that viewers might be looking for more detailed information about the states, I changed the template at the top of the section from {{Main article}} to {{Details}} and specifically stated "for more details on each U.S. state, see List of states and territories of the United States". Be of good cheer all. Drdpw (talk) 21:40, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Edit request–hatnote[edit]

States of the Union redirects here. Please add a hatnote to take care of this ambiguity.

{{redirect|States of the Union|other uses|State of the Union (disambiguation)}}

"States of the Union" redirects here. For other uses, see State of the Union (disambiguation).

-- (talk) 05:43, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Note: I think "States of the Union" and "State of Union" are distinct and is free of any ambiguity to have a hatnote. regards, DRAGON BOOSTER 06:03, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Not done: Thank you for your suggestion – you would need a consensus for this, and since I agree with DRAGON BOOSTER that the concept of "states of the Union" is distinct from "State of the Union", I don't see a need for a hatnote in this article. I have, however, included a See also hatnote on the redirect itself.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  12:41, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Concur with Paine Ellsworth and DRAGON BOOSTER. The concepts are obviously distinct on their face and unlikely to be confused. --Coolcaesar (talk) 18:05, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Why would it be unlikely to be confused when "States of the Union" is the plural of the "State of the Union" that is given every year by the President? -- (talk) 05:06, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
No, "the plural of the 'State of the Union' that is given every year by the President" would be "State of the Unions" or "State of the Union addresses". - BilCat (talk) 05:34, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
"States of the Union" is a plural for the speech.[1][2][3][4]; since it is used it the wild as such, this should carrya hatnote for it. -- (talk) 23:36, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
While the redirect "states of the Union" and the "U.S. state" article are distinct enough to be free of any ambiguity, "states of the Union" and the "State of the Union" article are apparently not. Therefore, I will retarget the redirect to the SotU article and link my edit summary on both pages to this discussion. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 00:21, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
If we're going to change the target of the redirect, it should really go to State of the Union (disambiguation), from where both State of the Union and U.S. state are linked. Station1 (talk) 04:52, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Edit request - hatnote[edit]

Please add a hatnote for "American states" which redirects here.

"American states" redirects here. For other uses, see American state (disambiguation).

{{redirect|American states|other uses|American state (disambiguation)}}

-- (talk) 04:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Not done - Rather then add the requested hatnote to this article I have retargeted "American states" to List of states and territories of the United States and added the title to the hatnote there, which already includes "states of America". Trust this is satisfactory. Drdpw (talk) 06:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)