Talk:Undefined behavior

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Untitled[edit]

I got rid of the todo-box comment that "UB is not a feature", because clearly it is a feature of many programming languages. (It's not usually a "feature" in the marketingspeak sense, of course.)

I also subst'ed the {{todo}} template, so it would be around to comment on. I don't mind if it's removed. (The anonymous editor makes a good point about the #pragma paragraph, though; it really is out of place.) --Quuxplusone 02:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi :-) I'm not sure whether the term "feature" applies… native speakers are in a much better position to decide, and perhaps someone can come up with a wording which avoids the term altogether. BTW, I don't think subst'ing the template was a good idea. Why did you do that? (You made me suspect that I wasn't logged in when inserting my comments but I was :-) Not sure why you say I'm "anonymous". I didn't put a signature after the comments, if that's what you mean, as I thought it wasn't important). —Gennaro Prota•Talk 12:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I saw after commenting that you were logged in; I tend to assume that if a Talk-page comment isn't signed, it's "anonymous". :) I subst'ed the template so that it would be here on the page in case anyone wondered in three months what I was talking about... except that I just noticed(!) that it didn't actually substitute in the text, which is what I was trying to do. So I've reverted my subst'ing.

Regarding "feature": UB is a "feature" of C and C++ in the same way that currying is a "feature" of ML, or funny operators are a "feature" of APL: it's something a C or C++ programmer is going to have to deal with, because it's a feature of the language. If there's a better word, I'd support it; the only other word I can think of right now is "element", and that has even more confusing overloads in a programming context. :) --Quuxplusone 23:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I took out the nasal demons part of the todo-box because it is just "[r]ecognized shorthand on the Usenet group comp.std.c for any unexpected behavior of a C compiler on encountering an undefined construct.", not actual demons coming out of your nose. In other words, unexpected results is a perfectly possible result of undefined behavior. Also, maybe the todo-box should be taken out altogether because the article currently mentions that undefined and implementation-defined behavior are different. — Daniel 00:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Quuxplusone 06:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Emacs first, or NetHack first?[edit]

So, the only "verifiable" paper source we have — Unix Review — gives the wrong information! --Quuxplusone (talk) 21:47, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Unspecified behavior[edit]

It be great if this article explained the differences of undefined behavior with unspecified behavior. --Abdull (talk) 09:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Optimizations[edit]

Should any examples be given for compilers exploiting undefined behavior for optimization purposes? For example GCC optimizes away a lot of comparisons involving signed integers by ignoring the possibility of overflow. Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii (talk) 20:18, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

#pragma joke[edit]

I think the #pragma joke section does not belong here. #pragma is not undefined, it is implementation-defined behavior. And even though we do not have the specific article, I believe unspecified behavior is a much better match. --Mormegil (talk) 21:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree, and thus removed the section. Sebastian (talk) 14:43, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Undefined behaviour resulting from pointer arithmetic[edit]

To User:Namezero111111 and other editors who are changing the example which uses pointer arithmetic (via array subscripting) to produce undefined behaviour, please refer to ISO/IEC 9899:1999 §6.5.6 ¶8: "When an expression that has integer type is added or subtracted from a pointer, the result has the type of the pointer operand… If both the pointer and result point to elements of the same array object, or one past the last element of the array object, the evaluation shall not produce an overflow; otherwise, the behavior is undefined." As you can see, the mere evaluation of such an expression results in undefined behaviour; no dereferencing or assignment need have occurred. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:59, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

gets[edit]

There's an entire function in C that has undefined behaviour: gets. Nothing guarantees that the string from stdin fits into the buffer passed to the function. --88.113.189.17 (talk) 15:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Just because a function can be used to invoke undefined behaviour doesn't mean that the "entire function… has undefined behaviour". gets() is pretty useless (not to mention a horrible security risk) in the general case, but its behaviour is perfectly well-defined when the size of the input is known to be less than or equal to the size of the buffer. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:56, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
When is the size of the user input known? You can't trust the user to always input the correct amount of data. If the user happens to write a correctly sized string, the function will behave as expected, but the concept of undefined behaviour doesn't exclude expected behaviour. A program which writes to freed memory can work as expected too, with luck. --88.113.189.17 (talk) 22:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Again, you are confusing actual and potential invocation of undefined behaviour. Integer division by zero is also undefined behaviour, but that doesn't mean that the "entire division operator in C has undefined behaviour". —Psychonaut (talk) 16:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)